TSS ammo...is it worth it?

[BeeMaa]

@HankBuck - At some point, it's the responsibility of the hunter to make ethical shots resulting in quickly dispatching game. All other things being equal, TSS is just better. Yes, you will pay a little more in price per shell. But when it comes to the field, are you really paying more? IGS and I go through a bunch of shells but drop a bunch of birds too. Mostly what I see are guys using steel, bismuth and blends shooting two and three times at the same bird and then it still needs a finishing shot. So, are they really saving money?

I handed a couple of guys in NY some TSS shells while we were hunting in the field in layout blinds. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them said the birds dropped quicker! They couldn't believe the difference. I'm not sure if they are investing in TSS now or not, but I am positive that they know the difference. TSS just hits different. Once you experience it, you will never forget it.

Look at this video and let me know how far off the bird is and if it was in range of steel, bismuth or blends with the same results.

Hunting is hunting, whether it's goose, whitetail or Cape buffalo. Would you use an un-bonded cup-and-core bullet on a buffalo hunt because Swift A-Frames or Barnes TSX are too expensive...of course not. Concerned about the volume of shots adding up to big $$$ while waterfowling, be more selective about the shots you do take. Leave the sky-blasting to the armatures.

It's not an easy decision, I get it. It's financial, it's ethics and a whole lot more as well. There is no perfect answer that fits for everyone.

 

[Challer]

When you’re sitting in the blind, add up all the costs of the equipment and the to get you there and back. Ammunition just isn’t a big costs overall to most, particularly compared to performance

 

[Field28]

I don't have a problem with anyone using it but for me it doesn't coincide with some of the ways that I hunt.

I like turkey hunting up close and personal, I want to shoot birds at 10 paces as opposed to 60 or more yards.
For close hunting turkeys I see no difference between TSS and lead #5's.

I get the more stopping power for waterfowl, I also see decoying cupping ducks as a close game. Lots of pass shooting sky blasters around my parts.

I do miss the old lead Nitro Mags from my youth!

 

[BeeMaa]

When you’re sitting in the blind, add up all the costs of the equipment and the to get you there and back. Ammunition just isn’t a big costs overall to most, particularly compared to performance

Amen.

FYI - The bird I dropped with a single shot in that video was at 45 yards and pulling away from me.

 

[HankBuck]

@HankBuck - At some point, it's the responsibility of the hunter to make ethical shots resulting in quickly dispatching game. All other things being equal, TSS is just better. Yes, you will pay a little more in price per shell. But when it comes to the field, are you really paying more? IGS and I go through a bunch of shells but drop a bunch of birds too. Mostly what I see are guys using steel, bismuth and blends shooting two and three times at the same bird and then it still needs a finishing shot. So, are they really saving money?

I handed a couple of guys in NY some TSS shells while we were hunting in the field in layout blinds. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them said the birds dropped quicker! They couldn't believe the difference. I'm not sure if they are investing in TSS now or not, but I am positive that they know the difference. TSS just hits different. Once you experience it, you will never forget it.

Look at this video and let me know how far off the bird is and if it was in range of steel, bismuth or blends with the same results.

Hunting is hunting, whether it's goose, whitetail or Cape buffalo. Would you use an un-bonded cup-and-core bullet on a buffalo hunt because Swift A-Frames or Barnes TSX are too expensive...of course not. Concerned about the volume of shots adding up to big $$$ while waterfowling, be more selective about the shots you do take. Leave the sky-blasting to the armatures.

It's not an easy decision, I get it. It's financial, it's ethics and a whole lot more as well. There is no perfect answer that fits for everyone.

@BeeMaa - after you shoot 1000+ ducks & geese with Steel then you will have a completed study AND the $$ you save to do that “Study” will fund you a lifetime supply of TSS. You will be shocked how many 40-50 yard killing shots you will make with Steel. My Son and I had an LLC to Guide Waterfowl and did it for 3 seasons (2007-09) we lost $$ but had fun. Some clients used Hevi shot or Kent matrix and also Tungston - there was no TSS as I recall. Clients that could shoot (rare) dropped birds but most wanted us to “shoot & finish off” whatever they missed or crippled - we always used Steel and a Mod choke 12 ga, 2 3/4 or 3” shells…they work fine. Like a shooting a Cape Buffalo with
A .470 NE vs a .375 H&H - both kill very well but if you can shoot the .470 equal to the .375 H&H you have a bigger margin for error. I’m in full agreement that When you only duck/goose hunt a few times a year - and it’s a Special occasion and you need everything tilted in your favor — TSS, Hevi Shot etc..can give you every possible advantage. I’m sure you will kill a few extra birds but Not many more. My own “small study” involved shooting one 10 round box of Hevi Shot almost every hunt for a couple seasons (I got a good deal $14 per 10 rd Box) and the 6s or 7 1/2s definitely hit harder. One duck shot with Hevi was the only time I ever picked up a dead Mallard and could feel his Bones were crushed - he felt like a run-over-bag-of-Potato chips….I was laughing and also impressed….but he was no “deader” then birds squared with #3 steel. TSS is at least 4 to 5 times the cost of Steel - I order Steel for $25 a box — get it by the case and wait for free shipping deals..unless you are getting a 25 rounds of TSS for Under $100? - TSS cost Much more. It’s Better and if my Life depended on killing a limit of ducks/geese - I would use it too.

 

[BeeMaa]

While browsing my normal sites looking for ammo, specifically TSS, I ran across something new. Winchester Last Call TSS 18. It comes in a variety of sizes from #5 to #9 and varying payloads as well. I decided to pick up a couple cases for trial on the waterways of Upstate NY.

With the success that IGS and I have had with the Federal Black Cloud TSS BB/7 blend, I chose to go with the #7 shot option in 1 1/4 oz payload. I've not had a chance to pattern test it, but IGS grabbed a case and hit the hunting fields.

It didn't take long for him to see results. He's been harvesting ducks with single shots out beyond 40 yards, falling stone dead. Hunting without a dog makes this a big plus because injured birds are rarely recovered without one.

Post mortem has shown clean pass through of the TSS pellets. No chomping down on pellets!

 

[BeeMaa]

Because the Winchester Last Call is also available in #5 shot 1 1/4 oz loads, I'm considering grabbing some for goose and/or coyote at close range. This would drop my pellet count from 231 to 132 for going up in size. Not sure I want to give up those extra 100 pellets for goose, but it might be worth it for coyote.

Like to know what you guys think.

 

[BeeMaa]

IGS just checked in with this picture. Shot at 50 yards with Last Call #7's, dropped like a rock.

 

[HankBuck]

While browsing my normal sites looking for ammo, specifically TSS, I ran across something new. Winchester Last Call TSS 18. It comes in a variety of sizes from #5 to #9 and varying payloads as well. I decided to pick up a couple cases for trial on the waterways of Upstate NY.
View attachment 651398

With the success that IGS and I have had with the Federal Black Cloud TSS BB/7 blend, I chose to go with the #7 shot option in 1 1/4 oz payload. I've not had a chance to pattern test it, but IGS grabbed a case and hit the hunting fields.

It didn't take long for him to see results. He's been harvesting ducks with single shots out beyond 40 yards, falling stone dead. Hunting without a dog makes this a big plus because injured birds are rarely recovered without one.
View attachment 651403
View attachment 651404

Post mortem has shown clean pass through of the TSS pellets. No chomping down on pellets!
View attachment 651406
View attachment 651407

@BeeMaa - That TSS in #5 is of interest to Me and NOT for waterfowel but rather Coyote. I’ve called in and shot a total 3 Coyote using a 12 ga and loads with 3” Remington HD Hevi Shot #4s with ranges 35 to 65 yrds —- Hit but LOST all 3 (one even fell down but got up and kept running. While I think that 2 of the 3 were clearly Not “centered” with my pattern (they were running) and the 3rd was 65 yrds & out-of-range….I’d still spend the extra $100 for TSS to give myself a better chance next time I’m fortunate enough to call in an Eastern Coyote. Out West I stick with a .22-250 and same for Night hunting but calling in dense cover here in the Northeast, and rarely getting one to come in, I want every chance I can get because opportunities are rare. While we differ on our opinions of the “need” for TSS on any waterfowel - I am in full agreement it is Superior in killing power and would spent that extra $$ for Coyote Hunting. Geese & ducks fall nicely dead with steel or Hevi shot & Kent Matrix out to 50 yrds. & Fox out to 50 yrds can’t handle lead #4s, but Coyote seem a LOT Tougher and I will pay extra to have an edge !!

 

[BeeMaa]

I've been getting regular updates from my friend (IGS) who's been on the water hunting ducks about five days a week since duck season opened in NY. The results are coming in with an overwhelmingly positive review on the use of the new Winchester Last Call TSS 18 #7 shot.

He has recorded kills on two birds (with two shots) at 115 yards that was confirmed with a laser range finder. These birds were shot at by another hunter, hit but not going down. He stood up and fired two shots, dropping them to the water. For reference, he's using a Browing Maxus with 28" barrel and Carlson's Black Cloud Mid-Range MOD choke.

On Thursday he sent a picture of a few birds...not so unusual...but the description was that he had gotten three birds with one shot. Range was 20 yard and he was using a Carlson's SKEET choke.

This marked the second time this season that he's taken multiple birds with a single shot. The previous one was a double at 30 yards using the same MOD choke from the first picture. Here is a picture of the "double" birds (the two on the right) taken with one shot.

 

[BeeMaa]

Time for a review and a little math. TSS (18 g/cc) is more dense than steel (8 g/cc), lead (11.2 g/cc) or bismuth (9.6 g/cc)...so for an equal amount of weight (an ounce) there are less TSS pellets of the same size than that of steel, lead or bismuth.

However, if the size of the TSS pellets is reduced there will be more per ounce. IGS and I have found that #7 TSS (185 pellets per ounce) are deadly on goose and duck. This is typically where #4 steel (192 pellets per ounce) or #4 bismuth (188 pellets per ounce) are typically used. All these pellet numbers are pretty close to each other, and for for all intents and purposes...equal.

The benefit of the TSS is in the density, meaning it will carry the speed energy further and be deadly at longer ranges. Not to mention that the smaller TSS pellets have less wind resistance enabling them to reach out to those distances not possible with steel, bismuth or even lead.

Of course there is the dreaded downside, price or what some would call value. I suppose it depends on what you place value in. I know hunting with TSS is not cheap, but it has resulted in more clean kills and less lost birds. IGS has also stated that he doesn't shoot as many shells as when he was using steel and bismuth, but comes home with more birds. So overall money spent per bird brought home is reduced. That's what I consider "value".

 

[RLL]

Time for a review and a little math. TSS (18 g/cc) is more dense than steel (8 g/cc), lead (11.2 g/cc) or bismuth (9.6 g/cc)...so for an equal amount of weight (an ounce) there are less TSS pellets of the same size than that of steel, lead or bismuth.

However, if the size of the TSS pellets is reduced there will be more per ounce. IGS and I have found that #7 TSS (185 pellets per ounce) are deadly on goose and duck. This is typically where #4 steel (192 pellets per ounce) or #4 bismuth (188 pellets per ounce) are typically used. All these pellet numbers are pretty close to each other, and for for all intents and purposes...equal.

The benefit of the TSS is in the density, meaning it will carry the speed energy further and be deadly at longer ranges. Not to mention that the smaller TSS pellets have less wind resistance enabling them to reach out to those distances not possible with steel, bismuth or even lead.

Of course there is the dreaded downside, price or what some would call value. I suppose it depends on what you place value in. I know hunting with TSS is not cheap, but it has resulted in more clean kills and less lost birds. IGS has also stated that he doesn't shoot as many shells as when he was using steel and bismuth, but comes home with more birds. So overall money spent per bird brought home is reduced. That's what I consider "value".

Hunted with a gentleman in South LA last week using exclusively hand loaded #7.5 tungsten in 28 and 410 ga…Results were nothing less than impressive. Multiple hunts had birds stone dead at 100+yard shots…I’m not impressed easily but this is the next generation of shotgun ammo tech! Reloads cost him just shy of 3$ a round

 

[HankBuck]

Time for a review and a little math. TSS (18 g/cc) is more dense than steel (8 g/cc), lead (11.2 g/cc) or bismuth (9.6 g/cc)...so for an equal amount of weight (an ounce) there are less TSS pellets of the same size than that of steel, lead or bismuth.

However, if the size of the TSS pellets is reduced there will be more per ounce. IGS and I have found that #7 TSS (185 pellets per ounce) are deadly on goose and duck. This is typically where #4 steel (192 pellets per ounce) or #4 bismuth (188 pellets per ounce) are typically used. All these pellet numbers are pretty close to each other, and for for all intents and purposes...equal.

The benefit of the TSS is in the density, meaning it will carry the speed energy further and be deadly at longer ranges. Not to mention that the smaller TSS pellets have less wind resistance enabling them to reach out to those distances not possible with steel, bismuth or even lead.

Of course there is the dreaded downside, price or what some would call value. I suppose it depends on what you place value in. I know hunting with TSS is not cheap, but it has resulted in more clean kills and less lost birds. IGS has also stated that he doesn't shoot as many shells as when he was using steel and bismuth, but comes home with more birds. So overall money spent per bird brought home is reduced. That's what I consider "value".

@BeeMaa - well we all know that Santa just stuffed your Christmas stocking full of TSS and you will now be a suspect if any “Drones” come crashing down…. With those long range duck kills IGS must now be factoring in the curve-of-the-Earth for his leads ie: 120 yrd crossing shot, 77 feet of lead + elevate 7 feet for pellet drop etc.. However, those were some nice looking Black Ducks and especially the one with the lighter color head and red feet - very mature 2-3 year old birds and maybe much older….those are the ones we use to get mounted.

 

[HankBuck]

Hunted with a gentleman in South LA last week using exclusively hand loaded #7.5 tungsten in 28 and 410 ga…Results were nothing less than impressive. Multiple hunts had birds stone dead at 100+yard shots…I’m not impressed easily but this is the next generation of shotgun ammo tech! Reloads cost him just shy of 3$ a round

@RLL - $3 per shell is a good price even for reloading…where is he buying his TSS pellets? I assume all the cost is in the pellets and by only loading a 1/2oz into .410 shells is where the big savings are gained? 12 ga shells must cost double that.

 

[Safari Dave]

Apex makes tungsten loads for many more animals than ducks and turkey...

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[RLL]

@RLL - $3 per shell is a good price even for reloading…where is he buying his TSS pellets? I assume all the cost is in the pellets and by only loading a 1/2oz into .410 shells is where the big savings are gained? 12 ga shells must cost double that.

I can find out. He broke it all down per component and is significantly buying in bulk. When I mean bulk, we’re talking the last order of tungsten pellets was a ton…

I don’t remeber the 410 load but that sounds about right, the 28 was 3/4 ounce at 1450ish fps

 

[HankBuck]

I can find out. He broke it all down per component and is significantly buying in bulk. When I mean bulk, we’re talking the last order of tungsten pellets was a ton…

I don’t remeber the 410 load but that sounds about right, the 28 was 3/4 ounce at 1450ish fps

@RLL ——WOW ….One TON (2000 lbs.) of TSS !! That’s like a shipment of Gold arriving from Fort Knox !

 

[BeeMaa]

I've seen TSS pellets for sale on Amazon. There's even a places that sells "TSS reloading kits", all that would be needed is the powder.

Bulk TSS For Sale

TSS Starter Kit

 

[BeeMaa]

If anyone has a 12 bore TSS load for coyote, I'd be interested in some real world experience. Distances would be around 50 yards, with 60 or 70 being a long one.

Thinking that a 2 oz load would get it done. #2 or BB at 1200-1300 fps in a 3" shell would be good medicine.

 

[DLSJR]

Quality TSS loads are devastating on birds, period. I have a friend who shoots Foxtrot TSS shells in 3” 410. He shoots a mix of 9.5&10 shot, and gets 297 pellets in a 3” 410 shell. Each time he comes out to Idaho to waterfowl hunt with me, I lend him a TriStar 410 automatic I have and those little shells simply devastate the mallards and greater Canada geese aka ‘Honkers’. I’ve personally watched him kill about 50 mallards and 20 Honkers with the 410 and they’re the deadest birds that fall. We’ve had to throw away more than a few goose breasts after they took 20-30 TSS pellets which Went clear through the Honker. Too much bloodshot meat to bother with. It’s also extremely effective on turkeys.

I’d love to see a 12 gauge load of 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 ounce of 4buck at around 1,400 fps. That load would be incredibly effective I believe for following up a wounded leopard.