Trophy Size: Should Price be a Factor?

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I think every hunter has the RESPONSIBILITY to educate themselves ... and AH is helping those who take the time to look. I too clicked through every posting that I could find about hunting in the Eastern Cape after I booked an Eastern Cape hunt. I looked at my outfitter's webpage daily as they included daily photos. I looked at AH sponsor's websites from the Eastern Cape. I studied the "judging" trophy quality and shot placement guides for every animal that I could reasonable expect to see and/or shot.

I also think that every outfitter has the RESPONSIBLITY to educate the clients PRIOR to booking and continue through to the last day of the hunt. I don't have a problem paying more ... for more ... upfront. I have no desire to go a pay for the inch or a hunt for a single kudu over 60" on one of my concessions. But, I will gladly pay more for a package hunt if it has the potential to have higher quality animals. That is where the outfitter has the responsibility to communicate what they are selling. I knew going in that I was paying on the high end of the Eastern Cape "Spiral Slam" (kudu, nyala, and bushbuck) ... but the outfitter was known for both the quantity and quality of kudu so I was willing to pay a little more.

I was keenly aware of the quality of animals that were historically harvested on the property that I hunted. I shot one animal that was significantly better than average for the farm and the Eastern Cape, two that were average to slightly better than average for the farm and better than average for the Eastern Cape, and one that was slightly below average for the farm and the Eastern Cape. The stalks for all four animals were unique and different from countless memorable unsuccessful stalks. In the end, I knew the quality of the experience and the trophy when I pulled the trigger and was VERY happy with both. I am certain that there was every effort for all of my trophies to be above average ... but that is pretty hard to do anywhere except fairy tales.

I think there is a place in the industry to charge more for better experiences ... as long as both sides are fair and honest about expectations!!! I can't expect to find the cheapest hunt on the internet and kill the largest animals ... or have an
East African tented camp/Serengeti experience on a 1000 acre concession in South Africa. And an outfitter can't market animals/experiences that they cannot produce and expect clients to be happy when the trophy quality/experiences don't match.

You can EDUCATE yourself only to a certain degree.......unless you have the experience of a PH, you are NOT going to be able to judge trophies, on the hoof, with the same capabilities of an experieced guide. It's basically "book learning" vs practical experience.
........and you say "charge more for a better experience"; WHO judges whether or not the experience was better? You? or the PH?

.....or are you equating charging more for a "better experience" with "bigger trophies"?.......if so, then we're right back to square one!

 

[Scott Slough]

You can EDUCATE yourself only to a certain degree.......unless you have the experience of a PH, you are NOT going to be able to judge trophies, on the hoof, with the same capabilities of an experieced guide. It's basically "book learning" vs practical experience.
........and you say "charge more for a better experience"; WHO judges whether or not the experience was better? You? or the PH?

.....or are you equating charging more for a "better experience" with "bigger trophies"?.......if so, then we're right back to square one!

I certainly did NOT mean to imply that I could field judge ... especially from 1000+ yards ... ANYWHERE near the level of a PH. But I didn't have to ask what any of the animals I saw where or why some had horns and others didn't or of I could shoot a 44" kudu with lass than 2 curls or if "this was a big one" like I see clients ask on many of the TV hunting shows.

If I had meant bigger trophies I would have said bigger trophies !

 

[Hank2211]

Lots of interesting comments here.

I also refuse to to hunt with anyone who has different prices for different size animals !!!
Now that sucks !!!

Again, this is probably for another thread, but I tend to agree with this perspective. Having said that, I was told recently that it's often not the fault of the outfitter. The landowners are demanding more money for larger animals. If enough people stay away from properties which charge this way, then it might stop, but it seems that far from staying away, once you say you have a high price for 60"+ kudu, everyone assumes you must have some and they go hunting on your land!

This is a good reason to hunt with an outfitter who owns the land, if you're in areas where that's possible.

I would say the PH's you were talking with sound like straight up guys.

They were, and I appreciated the candour.

 

[billc]

Lots of interesting comments here.



Again, this is probably for another thread, but I tend to agree with this perspective. Having said that, I was told recently that it's often not the fault of the outfitter. The landowners are demanding more money for larger animals. If enough people stay away from properties which charge this way, then it might stop, but it seems that far from staying away, once you say you have a high price for 60"+ kudu, everyone assumes you must have some and they go hunting on your land!

This is a good reason to hunt with an outfitter who owns the land, if you're in areas where that's possible.



They were, and I appreciated the candour.

I still think the same but that also means on that ranch. I will not pay by the inch on any ranch. If I know one ranch wants 3000 dollars for a kudu I am ok with that. The other may want 2000 and if I know that all is good. I am not going to the ranch that wants 3000 to look for a 50 kudu though.

If I have a goal and I ask the outfitter what the chance are for that goal. He tells me he normally take 50 to 52 inch kudu on his places I am not going there looking for a 55" one. But they all know places were then can get bigger because the ranch has bigger. If there is a extra cost for that place no problem as it is better to match my goal. But I would still want a flat fee and I want to make the call if the extra is worth it or not.

 

[enysse]

With all the game surveys outfitters or landowners do, they know what they have on their property. It only becomes a problem when a PH is told what is there or what to hunt or created unrealistic expectations for the hunter.

I got treated bad on one hunt, I told PH and landowner this is bad for business. I'm not paying said price you asked, stop playing games.

 

[curtism1234]

I think the wildcard in this is the PH himself.

Yes, the PH works for the business owner and his loyalty sways in that direction. But the PH also works for the hunter and thus can have it both ways. After all, the hunter is the one tipping

 

[Royal27]

I agree with those that say they will pay more for an area rather than a trophy. That's no different than here in the States. And to me that is totally different than paying by the inch.

Where this can become a challenge though is that most SA outfitters have more than one area. Are you being taken to the best area or one that will meet your personal expectations? All comes back to doing research, asking straight forward questions, and trusting your PH.

 

[Michael Dean]

In some recent "back of the truck" discussions with a couple of PH's, the issue of package hunts and trophy sizes came up. One PH said that when people are getting a package deal - paying less than the normal trophy fee for the animals - they should not expect to be steered towards the largest trophies in a particular area. He said the best trophies would normally be kept for those paying full price.

Now both PHs were equally clear that if a client wanted to take a particular animal that was found, even if it was the largest in the area, they wouldn't not stop him from taking the shot. But equally, they wouldn't say "let's wait, we can find something bigger" if an average size trophy presented itself.

I have never been on a package hunt, and I was a bit annoyed with this at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I could see the point. When I book a hotel on Priceline, I don't expect to get the best room in the hotel when I arrive. Same with an airline. If I've bought a discounted ticket, I expect they'd offer upgrades to full fare passengers before they offered one to me.

Should package hunts be any different? What are people's expectations when they book a package hunt? Is trophy size ever mentioned?

Inquiring minds . . . .

Delighted that someone raised this topic; in all honesty I'd never given much thought to outfitters having different standards and goals in terms of animal quality depending upon what the client payed for his safari.

In my humble opinion, a client is a client and deserves the very best treatment and opportunity to take the finest quality animals regardless of what he's paid in terms of booking fees. The notion that a PH would provide anything but his best efforts to obtain the finest specimens for every client is disheartening at best. In simple terms, a PH is tipped by the client for his efforts in obtaining the very best opportunities for his client to fill his tags. If I were to purchase a package hunt and realized that the PH was intentionally steering me away from trophy opportunities that were earmarked for retail clients, I can promise you that my tip would reflect his less than satisfactory performance.

Regardless of what a person pays for a Safari, they deserve first class treatment and hunting opportunities. There's no disclaimer on package hunts that indicates that the hunter is purchasing a substandard hunt. If the outfitter deems it in his best interest to offer package hunts at reduced rates to garner additional clientele, that his business decision to make. That being said, every client regardless of price deserves 110% from his PH and outfitter.

 

[JimP]

As has been mentioned a trophy is in the eyes of the beholder.

When I went on my safari last year I figured that I would leave everything up to my PH whoever it might be, and I got a good one. He could tell a great trophy from a good one like I can tell you the trophy potential of a bull elk or a mule deer buck. We hunted hard for the entire length of my hunt and turned down quite a few kudu. Then came the last day. The outfitter of the hunt and my PH got together and decided to hunt another property. My PH and I saw a few kudu but they were small according to him, we then met up with the outfitter and headed down a ridge where we spotted a nice kudu. The outfitter wanted me to shoot him but my PH said that we could do better and they actually got into a small argument right there on weather or not I should take the shot. My PH won out and here in this picture is the results. I haven't put a tape to him and I doubt that I ever will, in my eyes and a lot of others that have seen him he is a trophy of a lifetime.

 

[Hank2211]

Delighted that someone raised this topic; in all honesty I'd never given much thought to outfitters having different standards and goals in terms of animal quality depending upon what the client payed for his safari.

In my humble opinion, a client is a client and deserves the very best treatment and opportunity to take the finest quality animals regardless of what he's paid in terms of booking fees. The notion that a PH would provide anything but his best efforts to obtain the finest specimens for every client is disheartening at best. In simple terms, a PH is tipped by the client for his efforts in obtaining the very best opportunities for his client to fill his tags. If I were to purchase a package hunt and realized that the PH was intentionally steering me away from trophy opportunities that were earmarked for retail clients, I can promise you that my tip would reflect his less than satisfactory performance.

Regardless of what a person pays for a Safari, they deserve first class treatment and hunting opportunities. There's no disclaimer on package hunts that indicates that the hunter is purchasing a substandard hunt. If the outfitter deems it in his best interest to offer package hunts at reduced rates to garner additional clientele, that his business decision to make. That being said, every client regardless of price deserves 110% from his PH and outfitter.

I agree with what you say. But I think sometimes the world sees things differently. Yes, the client tips, but the outfitter gives out the jobs.

 

[Hank2211]

As has been mentioned a trophy is in the eyes of the beholder.

When I went on my safari last year I figured that I would leave everything up to my PH whoever it might be, and I got a good one. He could tell a great trophy from a good one like I can tell you the trophy potential of a bull elk or a mule deer buck. We hunted hard for the entire length of my hunt and turned down quite a few kudu. Then came the last day. The outfitter of the hunt and my PH got together and decided to hunt another property. My PH and I saw a few kudu but they were small according to him, we then met up with the outfitter and headed down a ridge where we spotted a nice kudu. The outfitter wanted me to shoot him but my PH said that we could do better and they actually got into a small argument right there on weather or not I should take the shot. My PH won out and here in this picture is the results. I haven't put a tape to him and I doubt that I ever will, in my eyes and a lot of others that have seen him he is a trophy of a lifetime.

The bottom line is that you got a wonderful trophy, and frankly, who the heck cares what it measures out at?

My first buffalo was all of 36 inches, but I worked like hell to get him, and I don't care what anyone says - he's on the wall, and I'm damn proud of him.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I agree with what you say. But I think sometimes the world sees things differently. Yes, the client tips, but the outfitter gives out the jobs.

Exactly.
Quickest way to lose tips is to never guide another hunter!

 

[Lrntolive]

1) For the first question of a PH leading a client to a lesser animal or property because he paid for a "package" hunt, I believe this is rather low on the part of the outfitter or PH. If a hunt is offered, package or not, the best hunt with the best opportunity should be provided. If there is a size limitation, it should be stated up front so clients know what they are purchasing.

2) Aren't we all talking about "hunting?" Whether it be trophy or meat hunting, or just plain hunting, we should not believe we're guaranteed such and such animal or size or even the species. I think too many people confuse harvesting with hunting. They are not the same. If you want to harvest an animal, hunt high fence or a property where the animals have no chance of escape. If you want to hunt, then get out and hunt. Fair chase is for the hunter. The other side to this is if a PH deliberately leads you away from an abundant are of game. Then there's a problem. But how would you ever know? You're not familiar with the land like they are, so you're trusting the PH to do his/her job. If you've done your homework, you should be able to trust them.

3) An example of a hunt I've booked for 2017 is where I did not select any animals with the contract, but instead negotiated a reduction in price for the day fees and trophy fees. I avoided outfitters/PHs that raised prices based on inches. This is hunting for me. I'll ask the opinion of my PH whether an animal is mature and okay to take, but I'll leave the decision of whether it is a trophy to me.

On a side note, I don't know of any of my friends or family that have trophies from Africa, much less have been there. Even if I returned with no animals and only pictures, they would be trophy enough considering I had the privilege of going there and hunting.

 

[siml]

A PH should go for the best quality trophy, full stop regardless of the price.