Times Are Changing, Do We Change With Them

[gizmo]

It really goes back to what was mentioned earlier about us uniting. If it's not your thing fine don't do it but don't shun others for doing it and getting rid of it will do much more harm than good. It's a legacy not just data on paper.

 

[gizmo]

Our biggest issue is lack of leadership, pr, and being norganized. Not to mention the constant bickering amongst ourselves. Know why the anti's are so successful? Because they are visable. You can't turn on the tv without seeing a SPCA commercial. Those groups are everywhere. The nonhunting public thinks, "oh that the folks who help animals" and are clueless as to what they really stand for. The same public has never even heard of SCI, DSC, DU and so on. The few who do think it's a bunch of rich old men sitting around a room filled with taxidermy wearing a pithe helmet plotting the death of a critically endangered elephant. You know why the think that? Because that's the way we've been portrayed by the anti's. I have never seen a commercial for DSC or SCI or any other group on a mainstream channel. Not once! Sure every third commercial on the outdoor channel is but John Q. Public doesn't watch that.
The NRA has been successful because they are public and have done a lot to educate people in the main stream. No hunting organization has ever done that. We stay in the shadows and as a whole do little to fight back. Sure individuals do but collectively we are much stronger than the other side. We just won't unite, we won't educate, we won't show what good we do to the public. It's all a self inflicted problem.

 

[Velo Dog]

Very well said Phil. Now how the hell do we get the ball rolling? What will it take for SCI or D.SC. To open up the purse and really protecting hunters

Johnnyblues,

Well said.

Never been to a DSC gathering so, I better not try to guess why they were founded or what they're up to.
I do hope they are not just another: "Who Has The Most Money To Buy The Best Chance At Shooting An Animal With The Largest Horns/Largest Tusks".
If DSC is not about that, I sincerely apologize to them and their members, for even mentioning their good name.

However, I have been to exactly one SCI event - a "Banquet" at one of the big hotel banquet rooms, here in Anchorage (my home town) several years ago.
It had a carnival-like atmosphere and was definitely all about the trophy record book way of thinking so, I will never attend another one, (unless after I croak, they carry my dead body to one of their banquets and drag me through the jeering crowd to be pummeled with champagne flutes, laughed at and spat upon, etc.).
Say what you like about SCI's best intentions but IMO they are all about tape measures and trophy record books.
I even tried to discuss with this person and that person about the fact that sable antelopes and African buffalo (just to name a couple of species) almost always, score higher on the tape measure when they are a bit younger than they should be when taken, in terms of managing the genetics of their species.
I also tried to discuss game meat recipes but, such talk was clearly boring to those who seemed to be friendly at first - oh well, their loss.

It was a total waste of breath in all cases.
I went away believing members of SCI are strictly interested in who has the most money to buy the best opportunity at the largest horns, tusks, etc., etc.
They seemed vigorously disinterested, if not annoyed about potential detriment to certain game animal genetics or the topic of wild game cookery and such - very disappointing for me and a wasted evening for sure.
I definitely feel that SCI is dragging us down in the eyes of the millions and millions of average non-hunting voters who, often are quite intelligent and therefore might not otherwise be against us .... but for the above described mess.

Best regards,
Velo Dog.
(Paul Ard - Anchorage, Alaska).

 

[Wheels]

Never been to a DSC gathering so, I better not try to guess why they were founded or what they're up to.
I do hope they are not just another: "Who Has The Most Money To Buy The Best Chance At Shooting An Animal With The Largest Horns/Largest Tusks".
.

Not saying this doesn't go on, but this is one of the reasons the DSC crowd left SCI.

Others have mentioned it would be great if DSC and SCI would get along.





This will probably happen before SCI ever would do something with DSC. ie. Read Phil's post above concerning the definition of a shootable lion.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Where I differ a bit is that I don't have a problem with the record books. Why shouldn't we? After all, isn't big animals what excites people. I'm not saying it's the only thing but there are benefits to it. It also promotes sound conservation as big animals don't just happen. It's a product of good management practices. I also think people should be recognized for their accomplishments in our sport. I strongly disagree with the tone of people who think we should hide what we do, not post pics, not discuss it, not recognize and honor animals for what they accomplished. This, to me, is a defeatist attitude and one that comes across as that we are ashamed of what we do. I'm not. I'm proud of my accomplishments, I'm proud of the animals and the work I put into growing them. At the end of the day yes it's about the hunt but there is no reason to not be proud of it.
Now it's not something I do because it's not important to me personally to receive the awards but if people want to register their animals and the various slams etc... I encourage them to do so. It's a legacy of tradition we leave for future generations. In truth the reason I don't is because I never though in a million years I'd have made it as far as I have growing up. At this point it would cost a safari trip to register all of my animals and slams and personally I'd rather use that money to hunt. But those who do support our rights by paying the fees to do so.

Gizmo I don't have a problem with the record per say, but it is IMO hurting us. I think there is a weird obsession with record book or nothing. Just like if I booked a mule deer hunt with you and you said 140+ plus and I got a 139 and then raised hell about it and bashed your business. It doesn't make sense and takes away from the animal and the hunt. (I meant no offense by using that example)...because to me I would come hunt with you have a heck of time laughing and bsing and then post pictures of my 139in buck and brag all the way back to the east coast.

I guess my point being is we don't need a record to be proud.

 

[firehuntfish]

I am just now catching up to this thread... I have been away from the forum for a few days. I finally got to do some turkey hunting over the weekend. I was also busy posting the kill video on YouTube and Lisa was posting the pics on FB... (kidding about the video, but I do think she posted the photos of my bird on her FB)...

Anyway, about the article... I had to read it twice. At first, I thought t was a joke. Then I realized April Fool's Day hadn't come yet... I guess this "outfitter" means well, but his passion could not be more misdirected. It really is hard for me to take him seriously...

Jerome... Your reply was extremely well stated... You saved me from a long post of my own. I agree wholeheartedly with about 90% of your perspective on this. I would only argue (politely) that FB, or any of the other social media outlets (take your pick) are not the problem per se. The knuckleheads on these sites are the problem. And, the problem with that is that half the world's population are knuckleheads. If you are a guide or outfitter these days and NOT on FB, you are out of the loop and behind your competition. I personally HATE FB! However, I see the need for it in the business. It gives us a place for our past and future guests to keep up with our current events. A great many of them like that convenience as well as the ability to have social interaction with us.

As for myself, I do not apologize to anyone or anything for our hunting & fishing lifestyle. Never have... Never will... We have thousands of photos and dozens of videos posted publically for anyone interested to see. If you are offended, that is your problem. My home is FULL of mounts, rugs, back skins, horns, skulls, beards, and artwork depicting and revering wildlife. We have many "non-hunting" friends that visit our home. They know we eat the meat, but often ask why we mount the remains.... I gladly explain that, for us, preserving an animal in some trophy form is the highest respect we feel we can pay to that animal that we have killed... (Yes, I said KILLED, not harvested). I also explain that the preserved animal is lifelong memory of the experience, and these are the very experiences that we live for.... Our smart friends get it...

Folks, if you think that being low-key, reclusive, or apologetic as a hunter is the way to proceed, you are sadly mistaken. It equates to about the same denial, that our beloved President has toward the radical Muslim threat in this world. Trying to pacify or negotiating with it will not work. Most of these organized greenie groups are nothing but domestic terrorists themselves. As for those undecided "on the fence" folks, education is the only way to reach them... Worrying about loosing their "indifference" because they saw one of our trophy photos on FB is not going to be the deal breaker with them. If it is, they were not that "indifferent" in the first place.... Being PC in dealing with the threat is going to be the end of hunting just as it might be the end of the good ole US of A as we know it. It's time to take the gloves off on all fronts...

 

[gizmo]

Gizmo I don't have a problem with the record per say, but it is IMO hurting us. I think there is a weird obsession with record book or nothing. Just like if I booked a mule deer hunt with you and you said 140+ plus and I got a 139 and then raised hell about it and bashed your business. It doesn't make sense and takes away from the animal and the hunt. (I meant no offense by using that example)...because to me I would come hunt with you have a heck of time laughing and bsing and then post pictures of my 139in buck and brag all the way back to the east coast.

I guess my point being is we don't need a record to be proud.

Actually I agree with your points. I do think that the craze of inches and scores takes away from hunting and I certainly don't hunt that way when hunting for myself. I've always been one to look at a "trophy" as a post mature male or really any animal that I take such as culls or population control. They're all trophies in my book. I just meant that I don't have a problem with the record keeping and that it leaves a legacy of tradition for future generations.
No offense taken buddy.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Gizmo I don't have a problem with the record per say, but it is IMO hurting us. I think there is a weird obsession with record book or nothing. Just like if I booked a mule deer hunt with you and you said 140+ plus and I got a 139 and then raised hell about it and bashed your business. It doesn't make sense and takes away from the animal and the hunt. (I meant no offense by using that example)...because to me I would come hunt with you have a heck of time laughing and bsing and then post pictures of my 139in buck and brag all the way back to the east coast.

I guess my point being is we don't need a record to be proud.

@gizmo, I've got nothing against the record books either. But it does become a source of arrogance amongst some. But far worse than that there have been some higher up the social network ladder at SCI, that have made it so important to impress their fellow equally or even higher up the same ladder at SCI people that they've been caught breaking the rules of the hunting area to secure their position in fame. Want to have the record book that's fine, perhaps even some recognition for outstanding trophies, well okay. But when it gets to the point that you cheat to get in, the system has become corrupted.

 

[gizmo]

@gizmo, I've got nothing against the record books either. But it does become a source of arrogance amongst some. But far worse than that there have been some higher up the social network ladder at SCI, that have made it so important to impress their fellow equally or even higher up the same ladder at SCI people that they've been caught breaking the rules of the hunting area to secure their position in fame. Want to have the record book that's fine, perhaps even some recognition for outstanding trophies, well okay. But when it gets to the point that you cheat to get in, the system has become corrupted.

I agree with you 100%. It a situation where we need to police our own.

 

[K-man]

I agree hunting has a bit of an image problem with some people who are at least uninformed and at most borderline antis. We are forgetting there is nothing wrong with the model of hunting we currently are under, "if it pays, it stays". The issue is with the united states government and our paid burecrats who are allowed and encouraged to ignore science and the CITES agreement they signed up for. We need to focus more on pur local, senate, house and presidential elections and be HEARD FROM to our elected officials. How many of us even know there names, let alone call them or go to there offices and let our positions be heard. A personal visit carries much more weight than an e-mail, but even an email is better than nothing. I know for a fact most of our politicians only have contact with lobbyists, and rarely hear from average joes.

 

[Hank2211]

As I have stated before, I am not a big fan of the record book, and only participated once at the request of my PH, for business reasons. I am more interested in shooting the oldest than the biggest, by a wide margin. (Unless it's an ostrich, then any age will do).

Having said that, the record book allows hunters to defend against accusations that (i) by taking out the biggest, we are hurting the gene pool, since we can prove that bigger ones come along every year; and (ii) animal populations are unhealthy. The record books, going back as they do for decades if not centuries, provide clear evidence of the health of wildlife populations.

 

[billc]

I dont mind the record books at all. Just hate the good old boy dinners and all the money wasted to make some guy feel special who took some sheep slam or 45 animals and he is now special. That is what sci has become to so many and that is why guys have pulled away.

Just the show is bad enough with how much it cost to get into and how it keeps so many from maybe going to the show because there not sci members or it would just cost to much for a family to go. We need more people period not a few who really think they run the show and make all the rules. As we have been seeing over the last year there way is not working and we are taking a good old fashion ass beating as of late.

 

[gizmo]

I dont mind the record books at all. Just hate the good old boy dinners and all the money wasted to make some guy feel special who took some sheep slam or 45 animals and he is now special. That is what sci has become to so many and that is why guys have pulled away.

Just the show is bad enough with how much it cost to get into and how it keeps so many from maybe going to the show because there not sci members or it would just cost to much for a family to go. We need more people period not a few who really think they run the show and make all the rules. As we have been seeing over the last year there way is not working and we are taking a good old fashion ass beating as of late.

Bill I think many share your frustration. If I understand you correctly it's the elitist attitude that bothers you, me, and many others. It's turned into a snooty organization and the average Joe is shunned.
I think people who accomplish these slams should be recognized as well as people who do great things for conservation or any other major mile stone in our sport, but..... I'm with you 100% with the frustration of it seeming like it's only for the rich and famous. It was intended to be by hunters and for hunters. This included the recognition and trophies but it's lost touch with the by and for part.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Bill I think many share your frustration. If I understand you correctly it's the elitist attitude that bothers you, me, and many others. It's turned into a snooty organization and the average Joe is shunned.
I think people who accomplish these slams should be recognized as well as people who do great things for conservation or any other major mile stone in our sport, but..... I'm with you 100% with the frustration of it seeming like it's only for the rich and famous. It was intended to be by hunters and for hunters. This included the recognition and trophies but it's lost touch with the by and for part.

The part in bold red, it should trump everything else.

 

[LivingTheDream]

As I have stated before, I am not a big fan of the record book, and only participated once at the request of my PH, for business reasons. I am more interested in shooting the oldest than the biggest, by a wide margin. (Unless it's an ostrich, then any age will do).

Having said that, the record book allows hunters to defend against accusations that (i) by taking out the biggest, we are hurting the gene pool, since we can prove that bigger ones come along every year; and (ii) animal populations are unhealthy. The record books, going back as they do for decades if not centuries, provide clear evidence of the health of wildlife populations.

Now that is a good point

 

[enysse]

I think there should be a new organization called simply "Hunters". The sales pitch should be are you concerned about your hunting right? Are you worried about your hunting rights taken away? Do you support wildlife conservation? etc....Then join "Hunters", we are a organization that is trying to keep the tradition of hunting going. We accept all hunters: Gun, muzzleloader, handgun, bow and arrow...we are hunters sharing adventures, cooking recipes, and information about hunting. In order to keep this tradition alive and well we will have to lobby government, educate the public, file lawsuits, fund conservation projects........

I want a group of 10 million plus, I want the NRA people, SCI, DSC, the whitetail, the elk , mule deer, quail, grouse organizations....everyone on board to fight as one against the antis. They can have there mini organizations but we need one with big numbers to lobby government, influence private companies and public opinion.

 

[billc]

The part in bold red, it should trump everything else.

That is the truth and that is the right reason to give someone a award to tell them good job.

Dont get me wrong I dont care what a guy spends to hunt. Hell I like to even hear the stories about those hunts. It is just that sci and even dsc now make it the main focus come show time. Maybe instead of some big trophies they hand out or the big fancy show that night that money goes to by some billboards showing what all the money raised goes to. I think the word that sign would get out would do more then the same guys patting themselves on that back each year to people who already are ok with hunting. We just cant keep telling ourselves we are doing the right think we need to push that word to the non hunters on the fence of what we do is right.

 

[firehuntfish]

For those of you have not heard of Steven Rinella or have seen this video, you need to watch it. This is related to the discussion, and it also happens to be an excellent view on the hunter's perspective. In my opinion, Steve Rinella is one of the more intellectual, well-spoken individuals in the hunting community. He speaks from the heart and within reality absent of the rhetoric... I wish he would take more of a leadership role in representing our hunting interests.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

That is the truth and that is the right reason to give someone a award to tell them good job.

Dont get me wrong I dont care what a guy spends to hunt. Hell I like to even hear the stories about those hunts. It is just that sci and even dsc now make it the main focus come show time. Maybe instead of some big trophies they hand out or the big fancy show that night that money goes to by some billboards showing what all the money raised goes to. I think the word that sign would get out would do more then the same guys patting themselves on that back each year to people who already are ok with hunting. We just cant keep telling ourselves we are doing the right think we need to push that word to the non hunters on the fence of what we do is right.

Don't disagree but DSC is a bit more low key than SCI, so I wouldn't lump them together. Take a look at the links and you'll see what I mean.

https://www.biggame.org/awards/

http://member.scifirstforhunters.org/static/WHA/

 

[billc]

Don't disagree but DSC is a bit more low key than SCI, so I wouldn't lump them together. Take a look at the links and you'll see what I mean.

https://www.biggame.org/awards/

http://member.scifirstforhunters.org/static/WHA/

I do agree dsc is more low key but still not for your avg hunter in my mind. I had a blast at the show and meet some great people but still enough of the good old boy network that will stop there numbers from growing.

I dont have a problem with any of them myself that would stop me from supporting them. But we need to get more of a voice and the old groups are not getting that done. It is time people be honest with themselves and not just say what they think there buddies want to hear. Talking to ourselves does not help us we need to get the avg hunter to take a bigger role for us all to win the battle.
Some peoples little feeling may get hurt but if we dont pull it together now and start thinking about all hunters we are going to be in a bad way. Sometimes having more people on your side is better the a few with more money. Having both would be great but that is hard to over come with all he jealous between us and how spread out we all are on what hunting is.