Threats to Hunting

Don't know about other states but the two I'm familiar with, PA and DE, the state game commissions' micromanagement. I've tried to get adults interested and they look at the book and are overwhelmed with the myriad of byzantine rules and regulations. Example: PA extended flintlock/shotgun/muzzleloader deer season. If I'm using a flintlock, I can wear a fur coat and a coonskin hat. If I have a shotgun in my hand, I must wear fluorescent orange. Go figure.
 
Maybe that is the downfall of social media, where most guys when they were young felt good spending a day killing a squirrel or a rabbit, now see pictures of B&C deer and limits of ducks and think that is what hunting is. There is also a perception I think that you need a lease (and I am guilty of this one).

As far as generational change, I think we are slowing loosing our traditions. Something as simple as going to a check station as been replaced with online tagging.
 
Where are you located? Getting free access to private land for deer hunting in western Pennsylvania is incredibly easy and we have a lot of public land too. I don’t know anyone who pays to hunt. Places like Texas shock me where all access is restricted unless you pay.
Indiana. There is free hunting in Hoosier National Forest about 2 hours south. There are some local reservoirs with hunting but most are very crowded. Private land is next to impossible to get permission unless you pay or own the property. Most areas with deer are small woodlots surrounded by crops. I have tried for years to find places but no luck.
 
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

—Martin Niemöller
I was thinking about that saying while driving today. Some are just so short sighted.
 
Pretty much every one knows the story in Texas, you either lease, own, win the draw for limited public lands, very limited, or know someone that owns land or you don’t hunt. Leases are, good ones any way, are astronomical in cost. Day hunts are becoming a thing of the past and those that are still leasing day hunts are insanely high. As there are fewer places to hunt more and more people are giving it up and fewer youngsters are hitting the fields every year.
 
Maybe that is the downfall of social media, where most guys when they were young felt good spending a day killing a squirrel or a rabbit, now see pictures of B&C deer and limits of ducks and think that is what hunting is. There is also a perception I think that you need a lease (and I am guilty of this one).

As far as generational change, I think we are slowing loosing our traditions. Something as simple as going to a check station as been replaced with online tagging.
I do squirrel hunt. And you know what?, I actually enjoy that more because deer hunting in Indiana is basically sitting in a tree stand with a numb butt waiting for a deer to wander by. Squirrel hunting is slow stalking through the woods, listening and looking for any slight movement in the trees.
 
3 reasons (in chronological order):

No.1: People detached from the reality of wildlife management (anti-hunters/vegetarians/vegans mostly based in urban areas) increasing their prominence like a viral infection and making numerous demands to have certain kinds of hunting banned (relatively few will openly go after all forms of hunting all at once). Celebrities who endorse these sorts of anti hunting movements (like Roger Moor or Peter Egan) are instrumental in the movements gaining prominence because many of their fans will blindly support any agenda which they endorse (even if their field of experience lies in acting and not wildlife management).

No. 2: Hunters being a group of self righteous self absorbed narcissistic ego maniacs who don't care if one form of hunting gets banned, as long as it isn't the form of hunting which they themselves practice. These people think that throwing other hunters to the proverbial wolves, will keep said wolves off their own backs. It will, but only temporarily.

No.3: Spineless politicians sitting in their city offices (& desperate to get votes) deciding that they will garner the goodwill of the anti-hunting masses (thus ensuring more votes) by imposing bans on certain forms of hunting. When they see that said form of hunting is being condemned by certain hunters themselves, they take advantage of the internal dispute and go forward with it.

Thus, one form of hunting gets banned. And the cycle begins to get another form of hunting banned. And unless hunters get their act together and stop No. 2, this will eventually lead to all hunting getting banned. And when the citizens of a so-called "Developed Country" decide that hunting is bad. they decide that it's time to get hunting banned in the so-called "Under developed countries" as well (through bullying, indoctrination and/or offering money to bootlicking government agencies).

My predecessor and professor at the University of Peshawar, Yusuf Salauddin Ahmad (the first Inspector General Of Forests for both East Pakistan & West Pakistan) quoted in 1967:
"Make no mistake, brother sportsmen. The people who wish to ban tiger shoots today, will ban deer shoots tomorrow and bird shoots the day after".

In 1973, I was an apprentice forest ranger when the government (yielding to British & Indian pressure groups) announced a complete ban on tiger hunting in South Bengal. 20 years later in 1993, I would become CCF (Chief Conservator Of Forests) for the entire country. And I observed that the same foreign pressure groups from 1973 were now trying to get deer hunting banned in our part of the world. I hate boasting, but I was in a position to do something about it this time around. I put my foot down and rejected their demands during both of my two terms. Later, when I became an MP (Member of Parliament) for two terms, I also rejected their demands and publicly called them out. After I retired, my successors fortunately are holding their own against these pressure groups. My only hope is that they remain iron willed against permitting any of these pressure groups to have a say in wildlife management.

My only regret is that I wish I could have done more while I had the chance.

Very well stated.

For many of the reasons stated in this post, I think hunting is going to decline worldwide over the next 20 years and as it does become primarily a well off person endeavor. I hope I am wrong because I want my children and their children to be able to participate in all the great things hunting does for wildlife conservation and experience the personal enjoyment of the adventure and the outdoors it provides.
 
Don't know about other states but the two I'm familiar with, PA and DE, the state game commissions' micromanagement. I've tried to get adults interested and they look at the book and are overwhelmed with the myriad of byzantine rules and regulations. Example: PA extended flintlock/shotgun/muzzleloader deer season. If I'm using a flintlock, I can wear a fur coat and a coonskin hat. If I have a shotgun in my hand, I must wear fluorescent orange. Go figure.
Doesn't PA have a seperate designated primitive hunting season for: long bows, recurve bows, and side lock traditional muzzleloaders only?
 
Doesn't PA have a seperate designated primitive hunting season for: long bows, recurve bows, and side lock traditional muzzleloaders only?
It’s after Christmas, only flintlock muzzle loaders but any archery equipment is allowed as well. The in-line or any muzzle loader season is only a week for antlerless in October.
 
Indiana. There is free hunting in Hoosier National Forest about 2 hours south. There are some local reservoirs with hunting but most are very crowded. Private land is next to impossible to get permission unless you pay or own the property. Most areas with deer are small woodlots surrounded by crops. I have tried for years to find places but no luck.
My brother and his hunting group went to Indiana I think 3 years ago to try somewhere new. I think they went to that national forest. My brother and one other in the group of 8 got a buck during archery but they didn’t realize how low the deer population was there. The locals told them EHD had hit hard there.
 
I see, where I live, poor public land due to lack of forest management and a game department interested in nothing but deer. This leaves little opportunity for quality small game hunting and deer hunting is confined mostly to inaccessible private land. There is close to zero interest in hunting in people under 40 here and private land is bought by wealthy outsiders who have no interest in being neighbors and are all about putting a no trespassing sign on every other tree and making sure no one sets foot on their property. This makes for non hunters here having the opinion that hunters are a bunch of rich a$$holes. I don’t see much of a future for young people who have been bitten by the hunting bug and are of average or limited means. I also see groups of hunters constantly attacking each other and their opportunities. For instance, houndsmen here who hunt bear have come together and lobbied the state to close bear during rifle season for deer. This means that a young working guy with 2 weeks vacation for the year and manages to save a week to deer hunt can’t use the bear tag he has to purchase with his deer tag if he happens to stumble on one. Very few were taken during the deer season but that opportunity is gone now completely thanks not to antis but other hunters.
 
I see, where I live, poor public land due to lack of forest management and a game department interested in nothing but deer. This leaves little opportunity for quality small game hunting and deer hunting is confined mostly to inaccessible private land. There is close to zero interest in hunting in people under 40 here and private land is bought by wealthy outsiders who have no interest in being neighbors and are all about putting a no trespassing sign on every other tree and making sure no one sets foot on their property. This makes for non hunters here having the opinion that hunters are a bunch of rich a$$holes. I don’t see much of a future for young people who have been bitten by the hunting bug and are of average or limited means. I also see groups of hunters constantly attacking each other and their opportunities. For instance, houndsmen here who hunt bear have come together and lobbied the state to close bear during rifle season for deer. This means that a young working guy with 2 weeks vacation for the year and manages to save a week to deer hunt can’t use the bear tag he has to purchase with his deer tag if he happens to stumble on one. Very few were taken during the deer season but that opportunity is gone now completely thanks not to antis but other hunters.

I was reading this and was like wow this sounds like Virginia!
 
Article on ZeroHedge about the Botswana threat to provide Germany with the luxury of 20K elephants.


Do not read the article, read the comment section. Unfiltered, unhinged, but a good insight into what a certain subsection of the population thinks (without filter, because unanimous) about elephant hunting. There is everything from "A real man does not hunt elephants" to "Trophy hunting is the only reason large game still exists in Africa".

As you can see in the comment fields, very few very pro and very few very contra comments. It seems the silent majority (that did not comment, or commented something unrelated) does not much care either way about trophy hunting.

So I agree with other previous posters, that it is this silent majority that needs to be kept either neutral or "not-against" (trophy) hunting. That means a steady, continued ethical education that needs to be provided. Our hunting associations could do more to help on this education part. In the meantime we all should do our own part, talking to and explaining the realities one listener at a time.
 
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You cannot have a meaningful conversation about hunting and conservation with fanatics, or with emotional and irrational people.
 
1. Habitat loss.
This is a problem that we as hunters address by spending money that goes towards buying back land and keeping wild lands wild.

2. Ignorance of the realities of conservation/nature.
This is a problem that organizations have been working hard to address over the past 15 years or so, but there is still more that needs to be done, particularly regarding Africa. Due to separation from nature and wildlife, many people in society (particularly those living in urban areas) simply don't have a clue when it comes to how hunting and conservation actually works. Many people have also grown detached from the realities of nature itself, and so they adopt a sentimentalized/Disneyfied view of wild animals. This can cause many of them to develop an emotional, negative view of hunting and wildlife management, particularly when it comes to "charismatic megafauna" (i.e. polar bears, lions, elephants, etc.)

3. Anti-hunters/Animal-Liberationists:
It's no secret that there is a segment of society that absolutely hates hunting. There is also an overlapping group in society that hates any use of animals by humans (i.e. farming, leather, medicine, seeing-eye dogs, etc.) These people are determined to see all hunting everywhere outlawed forever for purely ideological reasons. Thankfully, they are only a small portion of the population. However, we have to work hard to ensure that the non-hunting majority isn't swayed by the anti-hunters.

4. Social Media
There are multiple issues with social media. The first is that it allows the ignorant (people that aren't educated about the realities of hunting and conservation) and anti-hunters (i.e. idealogues) to spread their views all over the World. The second problem is that some hunters post pictures on social media that are then taken out of context by anti-hunters and are used to demonize and attack hunting. The flip-side of all this is that social media can also be a great tool for getting our message out there. It's still important to share what we do, and to educate the general public about what hunting actually is. Blood Origins has been doing a great job with this.

5. Misinformation:
This ties in with social media, but it also applies to settings outside of it. The MSM, Western politicians and others often spread misinformation about hunting (either intentionally or unintentionally). The issue becomes worse when celebrities (who are often highly misinformed about the issues they talk about) give their opinions, because they have large audiences and many of their fans feel the need to conform to what they believe. There's a pretty long list of talking points that are typically thrown out. Some of them include:
  • "Trophy hunting is wrong" ("trophy hunting" being the practice of killing something and leaving the meat to rot; a practice which doesn't happen.
  • "How could killing animals help the species?" ignorance of wildlife management)
  • "Hunters enjoy killing." (ignorance/misunderstanding of hunter motivations)
  • "Hunting is not necessary." (ignorance of where meat comes from, and the necessity of managing wildlife populations)
Ultimately, it is up to each of us as individual hunters (as well as the organizations that represent us) to fight this misinformation wherever we see it.

It's important for us to approach the issue with a cool head. What is important to remember is that many people who may espouse negative opinions about hunting (e.g. "killing elephants is sick," "trophy hunting is evil," etc.) likely have never been given the facts on the issue. If you respond to them in an aggressive manner (e.g. "you're an idiot!") you will just radicalize that person further. If you just calmly give them the facts (e.g. "actually, elephants are hunted because xyz," or "actually, the meat from big game hunts is not wasted," etc.) you are far more likely to get a positive response.


On the whole, I'm actually optimistic about the future of hunting. People like Joe Rogan help to normalize hunting, and he has a massive audience. Organizations like SCI and DSC are continuing to improve their messaging and education, and other groups like Blood Origins are helping to educate the non-hunting public. This billboard in Victoria (Australia) is a great example:
Blood Origins Victoria Billboard.jpg


I also notice that on social media, it is far more common now to see people in comments sections correcting people and posting facts about hunting. African countries are also growing increasingly intolerant of Western countries trying to dictate how they should manage their wildlife, and are making their voices heard (see President Masisi's offer to send 20,000 elephants to Germany). This neo-colonialist (or eco-colonialist) attitude is increasingly being exposed for what it is, and I believe that it will make it a lot harder for the average person to comfortably side with anti-hunting Western Governments on this issue.
 
In my option it’s a few reason but it all has a common issue at its us.

I’m sure it’s like this the world over but the infighting between hunters has gotten to a point that it’s become ridiculous with social media it has gotten worse because it gives a lot more people access to have a voice even from mom’s basement. But I believe that’s within everything sports, business, you name it. Social media isn’t going away and it could be used as a tool to better educate and stand together but we seem to keep getting further and further away from that. The fights between hunters on DIY vs guided, bow vs rifle, sheep vs elk, whitetails vs ducks, and then you get the guys that harp on people like all of us who like to travel the world. The lack of the education on how wildlife management and conservation works is a huge threat but you won’t see that in a school system with our woke government and if we are being honest I don’t believe most of your “average joe” hunters really even care to learn themselves or teach others, so I believe people with bigger voices and influence should start to stand up for the common ground that we are all hunters not just deer hunters, or duck hunters, or Africa hunters. We are all hunters that have the same passion deep down.

Human population and encroachment are a big factors especially within Africa I know it’s a problem here in the US but we do live life a little different and wildlife does seem to live within suburban areas, something that’s not happening in Africa for the most part.



Then as I touched on it politics has a huge role in it, I think we have gave our politicians no matter left or right, far to much power over things and that’s what’s caused so much conflict within the world and has built the leading money making machine around war.



I hate to be a doom and gloom guy, the worlds always been a changing order I think we as hunters are our own demise if we can’t get everyone to start rowing the boat.
 
I would saying education is important,
Lack of opportunities
And lastly government intervention
 
I would saying education is important,
Lack of opportunities
And lastly government intervention
Lack of opportunities is a huge issue in NE Florida. Duval and St Johns county want to develop every square inch of land. Surrounding counties are becoming like that.
 
-Lack of interest by next generation.
This, maybe is the worst. We could become extinct just like that, for young people not going into hunting and conservation at young age. Pricing is also negative factor.

- Young generation and pricing
If a young men with interest is not from hunting family (to hunt wilt his father or granpa),

Many valid points have been made in this thread, but the decline in hunters will be exacerbated as the tradition of hunting decreases between generations. Even if the youngsters have an interest in hunting, it is unlikely to get far if their own parents aren't part of the culture. Maybe they weren't exposed to the outdoors as children themselves, or perhaps got away from it as they became adults and worked in urban or suburban areas. Increasingly involved in the subculture which values shopping at the mall rather than more traditional pursuits. Add-in youth sports (actually a good thing) which can be overdone -- practices and games for softball, soccer, football, etc. 5-6 days a week, and there is little time remaining for traditional outdoor pursuits.

And then there is the lure of video games and various social media. Eventually they will end up several generations away from when Dad / Grandpa / Uncle took them hunting or fishing. After that it just becomes a cascading effect.

As an acquaintance once told me about his own grandchildren, "we try to raise them right, but I just can't compete with social media and the internet!"
 

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Grz63 wrote on Werty's profile.
(cont'd)
Rockies museum,
CM Russel museum and lewis and Clark interpretative center
Horseback riding in Summer star ranch
Charlo bison range and Garnet ghost town
Flathead lake, road to the sun and hiking in Glacier NP
and back to SLC (via Ogden and Logan)
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Good Morning,
I plan to visit MT next Sept.
May I ask you to give me your comments; do I forget something ? are my choices worthy ? Thank you in advance
Philippe (France)

Start in Billings, Then visit little big horn battlefield,
MT grizzly encounter,
a hot springs (do you have good spots ?)
Looking to buy a 375 H&H or .416 Rem Mag if anyone has anything they want to let go of
 
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