Thoughts on Borrowing Guns on Safari

[Philip Glass]

Your situation is unique and it appears with lots of neat European destinations. I understand what you are describing here from your experiences. However for a guy going on one hunt with challenging shooting situation not to mention DG I think its better to take your own rifle. I think it is generally bad advice to tell hunters it is too hard to take a rifle. It is simply not the case. With a good travel agent most everything goes smoothly. Most trips there will be an hour here and maybe another hour there in delays cheching in rifles. Most hunters are scared to death of Africa to start with and then people telling them to not take a rifle because its too hard is just bad advice. If someone saves up for years to hunt Africa and dreams and plans to go hunt with his rifle all those years and then he gets this kind of advice? I am sorry but you miss a big part of the experience and especially the prep for safari by borrowing a rifle.
As you mention you enjoy the different rifles along the way and I understand that but I dont think it is for everyone.
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.
Regards,
Philip

 

[Philip Glass]

I’m very curious on what the stressful aspect of taking your rifles was. I have never experienced any issues other than one ammo delay.

Do you use an agent to coordinate travel and permits?

Do you have someone meet you and expedite firearm processing?

I guess some of us have traveled with guns so much we dont quite understand what others complain about. Like I mentioned: use an agent and plan for a couple of hours extra and take a deep breath!
I guess for me I just enjoy the challenge of travelling! come what may.

 

[WAB]

I guess some of us have traveled with guns so much we dont quite understand what others complain about. Like I mentioned: use an agent and plan for a couple of hours extra and take a deep breath!
I guess for me I just enjoy the challenge of travelling! come what may.

Agreed. In fairness, I had been in and out of a dozen backwater spots in Africa before I ever traveled there on a hunt. I had been fully acquainted with TIA before a gun was ever in the mix.

I have also taken guns on UK hunts. That is actually much more involved than Africa. A good friend is in the industry there and has his employer (H&H) handle my permits.

 

[WAB]

Your situation is unique and it appears with lots of neat European destinations. I understand what you are describing here from your experiences. However for a guy going on one hunt with challenging shooting situation not to mention DG I think its better to take your own rifle. I think it is generally bad advice to tell hunters it is too hard to take a rifle. It is simply not the case. With a good travel agent most everything goes smoothly. Most trips there will be an hour here and maybe another hour there in delays cheching in rifles. Most hunters are scared to death of Africa to start with and then people telling them to not take a rifle because its too hard is just bad advice. If someone saves up for years to hunt Africa and dreams and plans to go hunt with his rifle all those years and then he gets this kind of advice? I am sorry but you miss a big part of the experience and especially the prep for safari by borrowing a rifle.
As you mention you enjoy the different rifles along the way and I understand that but I dont think it is for everyone.
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.
Regards,
Philip

I agree, I would hate to see a new visitor to Africa leave his/her guns at home out of fear of the process. Use a good travel agent and an expediter, allow a little extra time, and you are highly unlikely to have any issues.

 

[Bush Buck]

I’m very curious on what the stressful aspect of taking your rifles was. I have never experienced any issues other than one ammo delay.

Do you use an agent to coordinate travel and permits?

Do you have someone meet you and expedite firearm processing?

Hi WAB,

I'm sure the stress was largely related to my first time hunting in Africa - but I do travel and traveling to hunt in Africa would be super simple if not for the gun. You could do it with a carry on and connect through any airport in the world. You could also re-route at a moments notice.

On the other hand:

-I had to commit to a rifle and spend a half day going to customs to get my 4457
-I felt I had to use an agent that understood hunting travel to book my flights (it would have been less hassle and expense to book my own).

According to the agent:
I had to choose gun friendly connections - which weren't the best options available.
I had to get a gun transit permit for Germany in case my connection was missed (this took 3 weeks).
I had to apply for a police permit for Namibia - you just print the form - they don't answer.
I had to make sure these documents were on my person and in my gun case.

I had to learn about appropriate packing and transport of gun and ammo and shop for various cases and locks.

On the way back I was traveling alone and had to get to the airport early for Covid testing. It was too early to check in so I had to watch my luggage and rifle case for hours (made it pretty tough to go to the bathroom) before my flight.
I also had a porter try to collect and "airport gun tax" from me. I refused and he later pretended to get me out of it and lobbied for a bigger tip. He was a pleasant con man.

It all worked out and I would do it again,

Bush Buck

 

[CoElkHunter]

Hi WAB,

I'm sure the stress was largely related to my first time hunting in Africa - but I do travel and traveling to hunt in Africa would be super simple if not for the gun. You could do it with a carry on and connect through any airport in the world. You could also re-route at a moments notice.

On the other hand:

-I had to commit to a rifle and spend a half day going to customs to get my 4457
-I felt I had to use an agent that understood hunting travel to book my flights (it would have been less hassle and expense to book my own).

According to the agent:
I had to choose gun friendly connections - which weren't the best options available.
I had to get a gun transit permit for Germany in case my connection was missed (this took 3 weeks).
I had to apply for a police permit for Namibia - you just print the form - they don't answer.
I had to make sure these documents were on my person and in my gun case.

I had to learn about appropriate packing and transport of gun and ammo and shop for various cases and locks.

On the way back I was traveling alone and had to get to the airport early for Covid testing. It was too early to check in so I had to watch my luggage and rifle case for hours (made it pretty tough to go to the bathroom) before my flight.
I also had a porter try to collect and "airport gun tax" from me. I refused and he later pretended to get me out of it and lobbied for a bigger tip. He was a pleasant con man.

It all worked out and I would do it again,

Bush Buck

"airport gun tax"? Hmmm..... clever?

 

[Cleathorn]

@Cleathorn
nice initial post, which got me interested.

Comment on rental gun:
Your comment makes sense for general starter plains game safari in Namibia or South Africa, or in cases where guns are not possible to import.
The problem in general is not rental rifle. Serious hunter, prepared for Africa, will use skillfully any rifle.

The problem in general could be poor quality ammunition, as only one available, used on tough animals, or dangerous game animals. I have seen wounding by cheap soft points in 300 win mag for example.

On Yugoslav rifles:
I have tried many. Which ones did you try, and found to be good (I agree some, are)? Would be interested to hear.

FYI - in Yugoslavia, till 1990, basically there was only one factory, zastava, which had civilian and military program. And there was few smaller workshops who based their production on zastava actions.
After collapse of Yugoslavia to 6 countries, most of new born countries took of with their own small arms development program, mostly for official use.

@Cleathorn
nice initial post, which got me interested.

Comment on rental gun:
Your comment makes sense for general starter plains game safari in Namibia or South Africa, or in cases where guns are not possible to import.
The problem in general is not rental rifle. Serious hunter, prepared for Africa, will use skillfully any rifle.

The problem in general could be poor quality ammunition, as only one available, used on tough animals, or dangerous game animals. I have seen wounding by cheap soft points in 300 win mag for example.

On Yugoslav rifles:
I have tried many. Which ones did you try, and found to be good (I agree some, are)? Would be interested to hear.

FYI - in Yugoslavia, till 1990, basically there was only one factory, zastava, which had civilian and military program. And there was few smaller workshops who based their production on zastava actions.
After collapse of Yugoslavia to 6 countries, most of new born countries took of with their own small arms development program, mostly for official use.

Mark - thanks for the information. Ill post a few pictures of the guns, you will be more likely to be able to identify them than me. Zastava is certainly a name I recall seeing. The guns were older (obviously pre-1990), well used, but also very well taken care of. What I really enjoyed was the conversation with the owners. I went to their hunting clubs (or "families" in Slovenia), had bread, sausage and beer around their tables, and had a lot of discussion about what they had hunted. Like many commentators here, who describe how much they enjoy talking about the trophy they took with their gun, I found the folks in former Yugoslavia to be very passionate about their hunting, and enjoyed many of the same traditions I am enjoy. It was great to be a part of hearing their stories, about their trophies, that they took with their guns. And then to have the honor of using their guns to create my own stories, it has been awesome. I will add that I had never really considered hunting the Balkan countries until recently, my mistake. These countries have a tremendous hunting tradition, great game management and species quality, and I will definitely spend more time in Serbia, Macedonia, Slovenia, Croatia and Romania hunting and fishing going forward. But I still love Africa.

 

[Cleathorn]

I’d like to see the Eland… I thought I was pushing the Limits with my 7MM RM on my Eland…

Here is mine with the Rifle I shot it with:
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I was lucky to make a good shot - low in the neck. Only place that was presenting itself to be honest… Although, that Browning is extremely accurate and I shot it well. If I had to do over again, I would use my .375 H&H and wait for a better shot… Browning 7MM was all I had at the time. I used a Barnes TSX, I believe it was 160 Grain.

Nighthawk - that's a very nice Eland. They are great to hunt. I would not choose a 25-06 for Eland. We were actually shooting Blesbok and Springbuck when we spotted the Eland moving through the bush below us. I shot with the 25-06 because it happened to be the gun in my hand when the opportunity presented itself. You can clearly see the bullet impact hole in the picture. The Eland went about 5 yards. I do not know what bullets we were using, the gun (and bullets) belonged to my good friend and PH. The underlying point is, be prepared, and be flexible, you never know when opportunity will present itself. Note that the gun in the photo is not the 25-06 I used. Another guy on the hunt with me used his gun for scale, the gun in the photo is cambered in 30-06.

 

[steve white]

I have done both ways. A Zimbabwe outfitter had a Remington 375 with Leupold 1-4x scope and it worked out fine. Other hunts I used my own rifles and that worked smoothly with one exception....flight delays. You THINK you have allowed plenty of cushion (Gracie Travel scheduled it) and then Murphy's law kicks in. Just made connections. But the next group of hunters in line behind me MISSED THEIR CONNECTING FLIGHTS in Joburg. I don't know what would happen if you got re-routed going home through Germany without a transit permit, as mentioned in an earlier post.
Scope choice is an issue which helps determine my choice of personal vs rental firearms. In a DG situation, it is not just the magnification choice, but other characteristics of the scope as well. I emphatically do not like scopes with a thick black ring and a tunnel like effect as you look through them. I want plenty of field of view, not the narrow FOV of some tactical type. I want enough eye relief, and I want a comfortable eye box that doesn't black out with any minor movement on my part. That's asking a lot of a borrowed item. The Leupold worked fine, but they don't grow on trees everywhere in the world. So I would want to know in advance what I was shooting--and I just lucked out the only time I did rent a firearm. Even for plains game they probably won't have dialable turrets or those you are familiar with. Lots of variables out of your control. I do think it would be VERY unlikely that a PH would have you shoot inferior ammo at DG. They will surely have picked that to their own standards.
Gun mechanics are not to be overlooked, either. One model of CZ rifles had a "reverse" safety compared to other rifles. But even a different safety than you are used to is something to fumble around and search for during high stress. Stock fit could be less than optimal on a rented gun, or you could be just fine--how will you know? So, would I do the rental rifle again? Not if I could take my own, but I also wouldn't pass up a good deal if I just HAD to go gun-naked, or was adding it onto Euro tourism. JMHO

 

[Tanks]

I guess some of us have traveled with guns so much we dont quite understand what others complain about. Like I mentioned: use an agent and plan for a couple of hours extra and take a deep breath!
I guess for me I just enjoy the challenge of travelling! come what may.

The "issues" seem to be:
-- Having to go to CBP for 4457.
Do the same people complain about this also complain about going to the range and practicing? In the scope of things to prep for a Safari this is miniscule. Also, with the elimination of dates on the form it is once in a lifetime event.
-- Taking the time to check-in the firearms.
This is a non-issue. One has to get to the airport about 3 hours prior for international flights. The extra half hour or so for TSA is part of that time. It does NOT add any extra time to overall airport time.
-- Permitting process for the firearms at destination country.
By using a travel agent like @TRAVEL EXPRESS or others, this is a non-issue. All one has to do it copy serial numbers etc. from one form to another.
-- Gun check at the customs of destination country.
Again, this is a non-issue if one does their homework. Most of the time your outfitter will take care of it and you will be through the customs with your guns and ammo before the other passengers. On my recent trip to Zimbabwe, I was at least 2 hours ahead of other passengers in exiting the airport due to a fixer meeting me at the gate and speeding me through all the lines and customs. $20 well spent.
-- Departing with guns
Same as entering the country and checking in for a flight. No extra time.
-- Entering the USA
You get your own personal CBP agent that escorts you to luggage carousel and then customs area where after a quick check of serial numbers you are gone, usually faster than regular passengers if there is a line. Now, I realize this experience can be different depending on the entry port.

Yes, there is some effort and planning required when traveling with guns. However, compared to traveling without guns it is not a significant effort. Heck, I did 10 days of glamping in Zimbabwe last July. That travel had more moving parts than most Safaris. I just hired a local fixer to handle everything from arranging shopping trips, reservations, airport transfers, local transportation, etc., etc..

 

[JimP]

The "issues" seem to be:
-- Having to go to CBP for 4457.
Do the same people complain about this also complain about going to the range and practicing? In the scope of things to prep for a Safari this is miniscule. Also, with the elimination of dates on the form it is once in a lifetime event. Some folks out west here have to travel quite a ways to get a 4457 filled out, now with no dates on them will be a lot easier. But I can understand not wanting to take a full day to drive to a Customs office just to have a form filled out. There are still a lot of hunters that have lives outside of hunting, hard to believe.
-- Taking the time to check-in the firearms.
This is a non-issue. One has to get to the airport about 3 hours prior for international flights. The extra half hour or so for TSA is part of that time. It does NOT add any extra time to overall airport time. The times that I have traveled with a firearm check in has been a piece of cake, never have had to wait.
-- Permitting process for the firearms at destination country.
By using a travel agent like @TRAVEL EXPRESS or others, this is a non-issue. All one has to do it copy serial numbers etc. from one form to another. I agree, permits are a piece of cake to fill out to send to a company like Rifle Permits
-- Gun check at the customs of destination country.
Again, this is a non-issue if one does their homework. Most of the time your outfitter will take care of it and you will be through the customs with your guns and ammo before the other passengers. On my recent trip to Zimbabwe, I was at least 2 hours ahead of other passengers in exiting the airport due to a fixer meeting me at the gate and speeding me through all the lines and customs. $20 well spent. This also is a non issue. Either your outfittler or your agent from the pre approved permitting company will be right with you, or should be.
-- Departing with guns
Same as entering the country and checking in for a flight. No extra time.
-- Entering the USA
You get your own personal CBP agent that escorts you to luggage carousel and then customs area where after a quick check of serial numbers you are gone, usually faster than regular passengers if there is a line. Now, I realize this experience can be different depending on the entry port. Depends on where you fly into. I flew into Dallas and had to retrieve my own firearm and head to Customs and from there I was on my own to get my firearm rechecked. Really no big deal, just knowing where to go and the agents will direct you.

Yes, there is some effort and planning required when traveling with guns. However, compared to traveling without guns it is not a significant effort. Heck, I did 10 days of glamping in Zimbabwe last July. That travel had more moving parts than most Safaris. I just hired a local fixer to handle everything from arranging shopping trips, reservations, airport transfers, local transportation, etc., etc..

My replies are in red in the above quote.

I'll still take my own firearms to go hunting. It is well worth the little extra time and problems that creep up.

 

[375Fox]

The "issues" seem to be:
-- Having to go to CBP for 4457.
Do the same people complain about this also complain about going to the range and practicing? In the scope of things to prep for a Safari this is miniscule. Also, with the elimination of dates on the form it is once in a lifetime event.
-- Taking the time to check-in the firearms.
This is a non-issue. One has to get to the airport about 3 hours prior for international flights. The extra half hour or so for TSA is part of that time. It does NOT add any extra time to overall airport time.
-- Permitting process for the firearms at destination country.
By using a travel agent like @TRAVEL EXPRESS or others, this is a non-issue. All one has to do it copy serial numbers etc. from one form to another.
-- Gun check at the customs of destination country.
Again, this is a non-issue if one does their homework. Most of the time your outfitter will take care of it and you will be through the customs with your guns and ammo before the other passengers. On my recent trip to Zimbabwe, I was at least 2 hours ahead of other passengers in exiting the airport due to a fixer meeting me at the gate and speeding me through all the lines and customs. $20 well spent.
-- Departing with guns
Same as entering the country and checking in for a flight. No extra time.
-- Entering the USA
You get your own personal CBP agent that escorts you to luggage carousel and then customs area where after a quick check of serial numbers you are gone, usually faster than regular passengers if there is a line. Now, I realize this experience can be different depending on the entry port.

Yes, there is some effort and planning required when traveling with guns. However, compared to traveling without guns it is not a significant effort. Heck, I did 10 days of glamping in Zimbabwe last July. That travel had more moving parts than most Safaris. I just hired a local fixer to handle everything from arranging shopping trips, reservations, airport transfers, local transportation, etc., etc..

All these issues seem small to me compared to arriving to find out I have a Savage rifle to use with a Chinese scope and mystery ammo for a 10 day hunt. My biggest issue traveling with a firearm was actually on a hunt to Alaska. In 2015, Alaskan airlines (of all airlines) wouldn’t accept a firearm from American and had me very stressed out rechecking my firearm on a short layover in Chicago. When Covid first started, I thought I had a serious issue getting my firearm home on the plane with me from South Africa, but it all worked out fine. Stressed for no reason thankfully.

 

[375Fox]

My replies are in red in the above quote.

I'll still take my own firearms to go hunting. It is well worth the little extra time and problems that creep up.

I think you forgot to highlight the biggest problem in that post . . . The continued use of the word “glamping” on AH. I cringe a little every time I read it here lol.

 

[Tanks]

...But I can understand not wanting to take a full day to drive to a Customs office just to have a form filled out. There are still a lot of hunters that have lives outside of hunting, hard to believe.

Well, again we are talking about priorities. If taking a day out to prep for hunting is too much, then maybe it is not that important to go hunt.

In regard to lives outside of hunting, I run multiple companies with thousands of employees and hunting is just one of my hobbies. However, I pride myself on time management and being able to delegate.

 

[Tanks]

I think you forgot to highlight the biggest problem in that post . . . The continued use of the word “glamping” on AH. I cringe a little every time I read it here lol.

OK. I stand corrected. We were really roughing it in primitive tents and living conditions. Seeing Africa from the viewpoint of locals.

 

[JimP]

In regard to lives outside of hunting, I run multiple companies with thousands of employees and hunting is just one of my hobbies. However, I pride myself on time management and being able to delegate.

I'm glad that you are in that position where you can have others take over for you, but the majority out there can't. If they take time off of work it is non paid, and while there are a number of members here that wouldn't care there are also a lot of members that would have problems doing it. I remember a member here mention that he has to drive 300 to 400 miles one way to get to a US Customs office for a round trip of 600 to 800 miles just to get a form filled out

 

[375Fox]

OK. I stand corrected. We were really roughing it in primitive tents and living conditions. Seeing Africa from the viewpoint of locals.


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Luxury camping. It looks like a great time except for calling it “glamping” lol. I hope we get to read a report on your trip soon.

 

[CoElkHunter]

OK. I stand corrected. We were really roughing it in primitive tents and living conditions. Seeing Africa from the viewpoint of locals.


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Wow! Nice digs! Golf course nearby? LOL

 

[CoElkHunter]

I'm glad that you are in that position where you can have others take over for you, but the majority out there can't. If they take time off of work it is non paid, and while there are a number of members here that wouldn't care there are also a lot of members that would have problems doing it. I remember a member here mention that he has to drive 300 to 400 miles one way to get to a US Customs office for a round trip of 600 to 800 miles just to get a form filled out

I'd no more drive 300-400 miles to get a 4457 form signed than fly a paraglider to Tibet! Guess I'd be borrowing the PH's bespoke John Rigby .375? LOL

 

[Tanks]

Wow! Nice digs! Golf course nearby? LOL

Not quite. We saw leopard and hippos outside the tents at night. The water in front is the Zambezi.

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