Thoughts on 358 Norma Mag & ER Shaw Barrels

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hello all,

I am interested in building a 358 Norma mag off a 1909 Argentine action I have. Just want to get some other peoples opinion on the cartridge before I dive in. Also curious what y’all think of ER Shaw barrels. I was thinking of ordering their barrel and having them fit it to the action.
Just to mention, I am looking at this caliber because I already have several 30 cal magnums as well as 375’s. I also have a 308 Norma that shoots quite well.

Thanks in advance!

@hperk9.3
The 358 Norma is a wonderful cartridge. The 35 Whelen when loaded to its FULL potential is almost the equal of 358 factory loads but I think the 358 Norma could be loaded with modern powders to make it really shine.
Bob

 

[358Shooter]

Valid point on the accuracy required for that guns purpose. It is one of the reasons I was not super worried about using their barrels. Now when you say, needed some work, are you saying it took some work to develop proper loads to shot well?

Hey Hperk,

Yes, it took us longer to come up with a load that shot well out of his 300. His other two, and my 35 were far easier to work with.

358Shooter

 

[Beck]

My dad just bought a .358 norma - awesome cartridge - he's pushed it to 2300 fps with a 350 grain bullet - over 4,000 ft lb

 

[Boyd Brooks]

My dad just bought a .358 norma - awesome cartridge - he's pushed it to 2300 fps with a 350 grain bullet - over 4,000 ft lb

Who makes a 350 grain bullet? The largest I have found is 310 grain Woodleigh bullets.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

My dad just bought a .358 norma - awesome cartridge - he's pushed it to 2300 fps with a 350 grain bullet - over 4,000 ft lb

@Beck
Where did you get the 350 grain 358s. That would be an awesome penetetrator.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Who makes a 350 grain bullet? The largest I have found is 310 grain Woodleigh bullets.

The 310s in the Whelen at 2,440fps have some thump and 4,000 od fpe.
Bob

 

[Beck]

@Beck
Where did you get the 350 grain 358s. That would be an awesome penetetrator.
Bob

I am not sure I'll have to ask him. My guess is he had an old box of Woodleigh's laying around, maybe something discontinued?

 

[MedRiver]

No comment on the Argentine or Shaw but the .358 is fast becoming a favorite of mine. I don't think I would give up the .35 Whelen to own one (the little Whelen is just too efficient, cheap to feed and I like four down in the mag) but my 1:12" Norma shoots the 225 TSX into cute little groups- the 250 Partition only slightly larger and the 250 Speer into slightly larger yet. I have full confidence it will crumple anything needs crumpling.

Recoil is a factor but even my skinny 18 year old son can shoot mine well.

Have only put one bullet through game with this rifle, a follow up on a whitetail doe my wife hit poorly. Results with the 225 TSX quartering slightly with the entrance tight to the onside shoulder were predictable...two holes, mush in between and a very dead deer post haste without significant meat loss.

 

[lockingblock]

I don’t think that build would work too well unless you are doing a full house custom rifle. The Argentine Mauser is a fine action, but it requires a very skilled gunmaker to work the action rails and extractor in order to achieve feeding and extraction. Paul Mauser had different magazine followers for almost ever caliber he built rifles in. He also had changes to the rails that retain cartridges in the magazine. Lastly, the 09 actions often suffered from setback and need close examination on the lug seats to check for setback and hardness. Any machining results in removal of the cauterized shell that was inherent to the design and requires new heat treat, a viable…but $ and complex process. Lastly, when done, you need it all polished and blued…

Thats a 20-30k build.

Its cheaper and more effective to simply buy a modern mauser that is already true and ready to have a barrel screwed into it, with minor fitting and whatnot for feeding. It looks $ but it’s not in comparison.

http://www.rogermgreen.com/gunmaker/mayfair_engineering_mauser_actions.html


As a side note, I’d use a Bartlein, Brux, or Kreiger barrel as first choice.

 

[gbflyer]

Did you have those results or based just off hearsay?

What is the difference between results and hearsay on an Internet forum?

Shaw is capable of building a good barrel. Do they build them one after the other? No. It’s cheap factory barrel quality at best. Repeatable barrel quality isn’t sold pre - chambered on Midway for $259 as Shaw does. You’ll get one goat stake out of 5.

You know that, you’ve built plenty of rifles, right?

 

[John Wasmuth]

I’ve built enough and haven’t had a bad one yet. Been lucky I guess. And there is a vast difference between hearsay and personal experience.

 

[hperk9.3]

I don’t think that build would work too well unless you are doing a full house custom rifle. The Argentine Mauser is a fine action, but it requires a very skilled gunmaker to work the action rails and extractor in order to achieve feeding and extraction. Paul Mauser had different magazine followers for almost ever caliber he built rifles in. He also had changes to the rails that retain cartridges in the magazine. Lastly, the 09 actions often suffered from setback and need close examination on the lug seats to check for setback and hardness. Any machining results in removal of the cauterized shell that was inherent to the design and requires new heat treat, a viable…but $ and complex process. Lastly, when done, you need it all polished and blued…

Thats a 20-30k build.

Its cheaper and more effective to simply buy a modern mauser that is already true and ready to have a barrel screwed into it, with minor fitting and whatnot for feeding. It looks $ but it’s not in comparison.

http://www.rogermgreen.com/gunmaker/mayfair_engineering_mauser_actions.html


As a side note, I’d use a Bartlein, Brux, or Kreiger barrel as first choice.

My gunsmith, who specializes in Mausers, does all this work for $6-7K. He is currently doing a 375 Ruger for me on a fully engraved 1909.
I am also not dead set on using my 1909 for the 358 NM as it currently has a standard bolt face and I want a 280AI as well. Decisions decisions

I do agree with you on those barrel manufacturers being first choice, but I was curious what others have had the experience of receiving from Shaw.

 

[lockingblock]

If I’m spending that kind of money…I’d say it deserves a premium barrel.

Who is your smith using for heat treat on the reworked action?

 

[gbflyer]

If I’m spending that kind of money…I’d say it deserves a premium barrel.

Who is your smith using for heat treat on the reworked action?

Absolutely. I’ve had good luck with x-caliber .358 barrels, I’ve built 3) 35 Whelens with them. Semi-budget barrel maker. If I were spending $6-7K on a nice custom Mauser build for myself I’d use Lilja for a button barrel or one of the cut rifling outfits like Bartlein. They both turn out a very high quality medium bore, there are no match grade or standard grade options…only one.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Fantastic cartridge medium range for medium sized game. Once upon a Time the favorite for lion and tiger. I have a Shaw barrel on my M70 416 chatfield Taylor and it shoots all shots touching with heavy handloads. It also has an HS precision stock a timney trigger a quality 1 to 6 scope talley rings and bases and of course hand loads made specifically for the gun. Shaw offers many options and a range of pricing. Have been to their facility-the work is sound. Once again the 358 is not a super long range rig so I really wouldn't worry about pinpoint accuracy though if you choose your components correctly you'll achieve it! Most shots on PG and elk moose are 200 yards or less and half that or less for bear. I had a 350 Remington mag and got rid of it as the gun was too light and it needed too much work. What it really needed was to be morphed into a properly sized and accurized 358 Norma mag! The STA is a bit much but not overpowered for its intent.

 

[baxterb]

My .358 Norma has a 24" Schilen barrel with a 1:12 twist.
225 TSX at 2920 with Varget or H4350.
250 Nosler at 2800 with H4350 or Big Game.
280 Swift at 2650 with H4350.
310 Woodleigh at 2500 With H4350.
.338 Win cases work just fine without fireforming.
I don't know about Shaw barrels but have been very happy with Schilen and Douglas.
I like this cartridge.

Wow. Potent.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Wow. Potent.

@baxterb
My 35Whelen
225gn @ 2,900fps
250gn @ 2,700 fps
275gn @ 2,560fps
310gn at 2,455 fps
All very potent.
Not that far behind the mighty Sweede.
Bob
Bob

 

[hperk9.3]

If I’m spending that kind of money…I’d say it deserves a premium barrel.

Who is your smith using for heat treat on the reworked action?

I believe he said PacMar or something like that.

 

[hperk9.3]

Absolutely. I’ve had good luck with x-caliber .358 barrels, I’ve built 3) 35 Whelens with them. Semi-budget barrel maker. If I were spending $6-7K on a nice custom Mauser build for myself I’d use Lilja for a button barrel or one of the cut rifling outfits like Bartlein. They both turn out a very high quality medium bore, there are no match grade or standard grade options…only one.

For my 375 build I’m using Shilen. No point I dropping all that dough to put anything but an excellent barrel on it.