The Colour Game Is Over

[thriller]

I dont care what other people want to pay for but a color variant is not something I would ever spend my hard earned cash on personally. If it as a chance encounter in the wild thats one thing but I cant see paying extra with that as an objective. I can never stand behind telling someone what they can and cannot do on their own property I believe that to be absolutely wrong. I as it looks like many others have on this subject vote with my pocket book. If people dont pay for it it will go away.

In the end im pretty indifferent on the existence of color variants on the market but I dont see them going away as a bad thing personally, if the moneys there they will make it if its not they won't.

 

[robertq]

If it weren't for high fences and the resultant private ownership of game all safaris would cost Tanzania prices. RSA would still be cattle and sheep country and there would be no AH for you to post an opinion about "bred animals".
Guys we would not be having this discussion if it were not for game farms! NONE of you outfitters, taxidermists, or importers would have a job!
I understand animal breeding (it's what I do!) has at times been taken too far for some tastes but you must understand the fundamentals of the issues.
People in these articles want to stop private Breeders from doing business the way they want to. Is that freedom or socialism?
Regards,
Philip

NO PHIL....... I'm talking about altering genetics.......not stopping game breeding or high fence hunting......... you're blowing this out of proportion.......

 

[Hank2211]

NO PHIL....... I'm talking about altering genetics.......not stopping game breeding or high fence hunting......... you're blowing this out of proportion.......

Robert, what exactly do you mean by "altering genetics?" I have never understood that breeding colour variants involved gene splicing, genetic modification, or other forms of genetic engineering. I believe it involves selective breeding for particular traits, like horn size, colour, etc. Am I wrong in this understanding?

Are black, copper and white springbok freaks? Are golden wildebeest, which occur naturally every so often, a result of altered genetics? If you breed two golden wildebeest, and continue to do so, eventually you will have all golden wildebeest as offspring. Is that "altering genetics?"

And if I am right, then while I have no desire to hunt these colour variants, I have no problem with others doing so. Having said that, I have hunted every colour of springbok, so perhaps I am as guilty?

And is there anyone on this site who has decided not to go to South Africa as a result of the existence of these animals?

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

there is no genetic modification, that in itself is basically impossible, unless you start breeding the animals in test tubes
all the colour variants occurred naturally at some time, more than anybody thinks actually
you will be surprised at the colour variations that come out of national parks in SA, and yes i mean the big untouched parks where there is no selective breeding and very little management.
colour variations happen in a lot of species, (almost all) as it does in humans, and no not albinism, colour variation.

 

[Luc]

Excellent article! Greed has gone a long way in getting people to do stupid things with Nature... However, not all South African hunting destinations are to be put in the same basket. You still find (thank God!) game reserves, such as ourselves, where we only value challenging and tough hunts, exclusively on foot, in a perfectly 'natural' environment. At Kuduskop, we only 'work' with our natural increase in game numbers. As a result, the game is endemic and as wild as in open concessions.

 

[robertq]

Tally -Ho,
Your point is well taken. My point is man is meddling with nature and not conservation........

Below is a piece from an article about Color Phase .

This is not for the enhancements of the breed..... it's for $$$$$$$$

 

[Hank2211]

Tally -Ho,
Your point is well taken. My point is man is meddling with nature and not conservation........

Below is a piece from an article about Color Phase .

View attachment 173088 View attachment 173088

This is not for the enhancements of the breed..... it's for $$$$$$$$

Sorry Robert. Again, I have to disagree with you on this.

White springbok, to use the example you presented, contribute to genetic diversity, in just the same way that any other animal does. It will never be true in nature the every animal will be the same, whether it be colour, horn size, or anything else. It may well be that these "unusual" animals don't survive very long, but it may also be the opposite. That's how natural selection works. A trait appears, and it turns out to be a good, or a bad, adaptation. Over time, a long, long, long time, animals with what once an odd trait may survive longer, breed more, and that trait will become the new 'normal'. With climate change, it may be that we start seeing even more "freaks" and that these freaks will over many generations, become the new normal.

If we want to get mad, let's save our anger for other things, rather than what nature produces on its own.

One last point. Yes, the propagation of colour variations (I won't call them 'unnatural' because they aren't) is intended to be a money making exercise. But what about the increase in game numbers in South Africa or Namibia which we always cite as the proof that giving wildlife value works? This is all about money as well! Sure, they were, and are, some dedicated conservationists who have brought the black wildebeest and the bontebok back from the brink, but these efforts would have gotten nowhere without there being money involved. Raising dama gazelle or scimitar horned oryx in Texas isn't done for the love of the animals but because of the money. Nothing wrong with that!

Let's be clear. We are all driven, to a greater or lesser extent, by the desire - and frankly the need - to make money. There's nothing wrong with that, provided we maintain a proper sense of balance. So you (and Peter Flack) won't convince me that something is wrong just by saying that people are doing it for the money. Most people go to work every day for the money.

You can convince me something is wrong because it's a ponzi scheme, or takes advantage of uneducated people, or whatever. But not by saying that it's being done for money.

 

[robertq]

Hank 2211
You're right money makes the world go round. My concern is not the money but about all the breeds and the further of them.We really don't know what goes on with the breeding and the outcome. I was a little thrown back what I read about some of the mutations. In the wild, they will cull their own and for good reason.......We are taking an animal with a mutation gene and mating it with another with the same gene. In the lone run do we really know the outcome....... This is my view and not trying to hammer home anything......... and respect all others views.......

 

[Ragman]

Kinda like the cattle industry in North America. Thirty years ago there weren't many black breeds. Then when the black cattle started bringing a premium due to excellent marketing by the Angus Associations, the other pure bred breeders wanted a piece of the action. So we now have black Simmental, Maine Anjou, Limousine, Gelbvieh, even black Charolais! She's a different world!

 

[Big5]

If it weren't for high fences and the resultant private ownership of game all safaris would cost Tanzania prices. RSA would still be cattle and sheep country and there would be no AH for you to post an opinion about "bred animals".
Guys we would not be having this discussion if it were not for game farms! NONE of you outfitters, taxidermists, or importers would have a job!
I understand animal breeding (it's what I do!) has at times been taken too far for some tastes but you must understand the fundamentals of the issues.
People in these articles want to stop private Breeders from doing business the way they want to. Is that freedom or socialism?
Regards,
Philip

Philip Glass,

You responded to my earlier single sentence post where I indicated a preference for hunting animals that had not been captive bred. Although I voiced my personal hunting preference I certainly didn't disparage or criticize those with a different point of view. To each his own in that regard.

I'll also say that I have no real issue with the bulk of your post which is quoted above. However, I cannot refrain from mentioning that I found your following quoted admonishment to be exceptionally bold and blanketed; . . . . "Guys we would not be having this discussion if it were not for game farms! NONE of you outfitters, taxidermists, or importers would have a job!"

It's a big world and not all hunting and hunting related businesses are maintained by game farming as you seem to suggest. Other than that good hunting to you in the manner in which you choose to do it. And contrary to your obvious disapproval I'll stick to my preference for hunting game animals that have not been bred in captivity. Once again, to each his own.
.

 

[johnnyblues]

I am surprised that almost 3 times as many hunters went to Namibia over RSA.

As far as color variants, no opinion someone wants to hunt them, have at it but I am not going to pay more to do it.

Everyone I talked to over there saw this crash coming though. Just like any fad there are ups and downs.

Namibia is a fabulous place to hunt Mike. Very different then SA

 

[Philip Glass]

Philip Glass,

You responded to my earlier single sentence post where I indicated a preference for hunting animals that had not been captive bred. Although I voiced my personal hunting preference I certainly didn't disparage or criticize those with a different point of view. To each his own in that regard.

I'll also say that I have no real issue with the bulk of your post which is quoted above. However, I cannot refrain from mentioning that I found your following quoted admonishment to be exceptionally bold and blanketed; . . . . "Guys we would not be having this discussion if it were not for game farms! NONE of you outfitters, taxidermists, or importers would have a job!"

It's a big world and not all hunting and hunting related businesses are maintained by game farming as you seem to suggest. Other than that good hunting to you in the manner in which you choose to do it. And contrary to your obvious disapproval I'll stick to my preference for hunting game animals that have not been bred in captivity. Once again, to each his own.
.

My point is these discussions rarely end with "to each his own". They typically devolve into the recommendation of a hunter imposed ban on a certain type of hunting or a certain animal. If your point is "to each is own" then great and we agree! I personally prefer to hunt the wild places as you do. I have no color variants on the wall but might someday and I will fight for my and others private property rights to own and manage animals.
It is a big world but if you work the numbers game farm hunting is the vast majority of hunting in Southern Africa (this is an understatement!) That's my point. Without game farm hunting we would not be having this discussion. Period. Remember that article was critical of "bred" animals which means high fenced, game managed ranches. It was a stupidly written article but that is typical.
Regards,
Philip

 

[Royal27]

To each his own.

End of discussion!

 

[LivingTheDream]

@johnnyblues no doubt! Just figured they were about even in number of hunters that go annually.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

once again, you cant call it a mutant, its something that occurred naturally, the colour of these animals was not bred, it occurs naturally. i personally dont agree with it, and yes i believe most do it for the $$$. but those same people with the $ they make do do a hell of a lot for conservation!!! the market will sort itself out, remember this is a young market and needs to go through up and downs and it will all balance out in the end.
these are not interbred mutants as most people say, they occur naturally in the wild and yes maybe in the wild they wont survive but not for the reasons that SPCA says, mainly its because they stand out and look different. so when a leopard wants to go after an impala in a herd.......... obviously the black one stands out he can focus on the one.

to each his own, agreed

 

[ArmyGrunt]

From taking these biology classes recently on my way roasts a master's degree I can say the word MUTANT is probably being used from a genetics standpoint. Any variation to the genetic code is mutation, so when that impala's lineage hadn't consisted of white until this one showed up it fits the definition.
The same can be said about the flu virus every year. The "vaccine" is only about 20% chance to be effective because of how viruses develop: pairing with another similar virus, and mutating (often in birds) before becoming infectious to humans. H1N1 indicates two different strains that paired, and which of some 18 or so variations for either of those two letters.
Ramble compete and knowledge flexed, I agree that science often uses words to confuse a relatively simple event. The color, to me, just appears to foster more dreams in safari goers of both camera and hunting varieties. Doesn't that springbok slam look better with one more head?!

 

[50by50]

I LOVE AFRICAHUNTING.COM! Thanks for the discussion guys. I haven't weighed in because I don't know the first thing about the topic but it has been a fun discussion and there have been some excellent points made. We, as an African game loving community, are so fortunate to have a site where we can mix it up together and discuss interesting topics like this. Love this site. Love our mutual passion that brings us all together. And I freaking love hunting Africa!!

 

[brandondd24]

Haven’t read any previous posts, but I searched color variations, myself, I like the different colors, springbuck slam, blesbok slam, and others, I like it. I love the hunt for african game, and thesecolor variations can make awesome mounts. Now I’ll go back and read the thread!

 

[Aaron N]

If you own a dog or cat, you certainly can’t be opposed to animals being bred to highlight certain traits.

 

[1dirthawker]

It's not Socialism...... IT"S ETHICAL....... You don't fool with MOTHER NATURE !!!!!!!

although i think the purposeful making of different colored animals, the truth is, mother nature throws them out there once in a while as well,

dirhawker