The bigger BP express cartridges

[cal pappas]

Thanks, Jaco, this is only my opinion. Yes, they can be dangerous and I know many in the present and in the past have fallen to an angry buffalo. But, the number of actual attacks/charges compared to the number of hunters in the field is a small percentage but the actual number will never be known. I know Saeed on the other forum has hunted more buff than most and he has never had a charge. Mark Sullivan, admittedly provoking charges, will state 95% of wounded buffalo run away. Yes, they can be dangerous, so can driving a car, but the odds are with us we will be safe. I take with a grain of salt the number of hunters who come back to the US and tell of the charge of the buff or lion. PHs at the conventions like to play up the danger to sell hunts. The math, I think, will agree with me. I didn't write about shooting cattle is akin to shooting buffalo, my point was buffalo are cattle thereby instinctively run from danger.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I think we can draw this conclusion on all DG then............. It took me 27 Elle before I had my first charge but only 6 buff what am I to make of this.

I reckon charges depend on approach and situational awareness, vegetation, and animal specific temperament.
Elle and buff in certain areas are way more skittish than in other due to poaching pressure.... I have experienced this first hand, 75% of wild free roaming lion will flee during the day, and yet come night time we are but a link on the food chain.

In the same breath Leopard should not be regarded as DG as charges are probably the least of all the big 5, temprament, situation, vegetation, human pressure and PH attitude.

Please get me right I firmly believe that if one has a charge something went wrong and the very first place I start looking is with myself as guide.

I am not in too providing charges and hair raising experiences, I provide consummate hunting experiences and avoid charges and pressure on wounded game as far as possible.

Math would agree with us on most DG species hunted every season.
I am however of the opinion that if there is one animal that will kill you in Africa that it's Elle.

But that does not make buff any less dangerous.

My best always

 

[Pondoro]

I think you talk a lot of sense Jaco....and I just cannot fathom the reason to hunt DG with BP rifles today....just as I cant see the point in shooting game with newly built hammer shotguns wich seems to be fashionable to some these days..

BP rifles are fun to shoot at a range...but shoot DG with them..?

Hell no..!

 

[Red Leg]

I think you talk a lot of sense Jaco....and I just cannot fathom the reason to hunt DG with BP rifles today....just as I cant see the point in shooting game with newly built hammer shotguns wich seems to be fashionable to some these days..

BP rifles are fun to shoot at a range...but shoot DG with them..?

Hell no..!

Lol. Now don't go comparing my Luccini 20 bore (hammer gun built in the 1990's) to a black powder rifle! It has 2.75 inch nitro chambers, a safety, and I'll match you bird for bird or clay for clay anytime.

My issue with the BP express rifles has nothing to do with action type (hell the Jones under lever, with which many BPE's were built, is likely the strongest action ever built). My concern is in trying to turn them into something that they weren't intended to be. Use them for the game for which they were designed, and they kill as well now as back in the 19th century. For buffalo, find a 10 or 8 bore rifle and go thump that big black bull. Just hit him right, or that cattle round-up can turn into a far more serious exercise for all concerned very quickly.

 

[Velo Dog]

RE: Hammer guns,

I've only taken one buffalo and it was with a left and a right from a Jones under lever hammer gun (.450 No2 NE).

Not exactly an exhaustive scientific test.
But if I had the money, (and still had the rifle) I would go again this morning.

Pre-War shotguns, including hammer guns generally fit me better than newer ones and so, I have owned and hunted with several.
Really enjoy them (but the local grouse, teal and mallards do not).

If you just want to kill something, I guess just buy a Benelli semi auto, plastic stock, etc., then dress up in Gortex cammo and go.
But if you want to relax a bit, try a hammer gun.
It adds to the pleasure of hunting IMO.
And don't get me started on wooden fly rods.

RE: Buffalo, dangerous or not;
A good man I had the pleasure of just beginning to get to know (Bryan Smith) was killed by one recently and so, I am inclined to believe them quite dangerous.

After all I have read here in this forum plus discussed with PHs and other hunters, I have to agree with Cal and others on the mathematical odds though.
A charge is probably not likely.

 

[norfolk shooter]

At the risk of sounding like Forest Gump, if the Jones action is so strong would a 500BPE take the pressure of a 500NE???

 

[Red Leg]

Because, Forest, those of the BP era were built to withstand the only powders which existed at the time - black ones. It is why nitro for black loadings duplicate BP pressures. The Jones was also used in the early nitro days (proportioned to deal with nitro pressures), and I have never seen one which was shot loose (off the face). However, it is a relatively inconvenient action to use compared to the Beasley (as adopted by Purdey) and H&H sidelocks or to the Anson and Deeley boxlocks, but they were and are very stout.

And plus 1 Velo

 

[Pondoro]

Pre-War shotguns, including hammer guns generally fit me better than newer ones and so, I have owned and hunted with several.
Really enjoy them (but the local grouse, teal and mallards do not).

I shoot a 1896 Purdey 12-65 (nitro-prooved) for the same reasons...

 

[Velo Dog]

At the risk of sounding like Forest Gump, if the Jones action is so strong would a 500BPE take the pressure of a 500NE???

Hi Norfolk Shooter,

Excellent question, thanks for asking it.

The Jones screw thread / under lever breach locking design is extremely strong for hinge frame type doubles and single shots.
As Red Leg pointed out, they tend to not shoot themselves off face / loose in the hinge, etc.
The .500 NE would be no problem for it, in a modern high quality firearm.
Firing full nitro loads in any Black Powder firearm is at the least risking your expensive weapon and at worst it is risking your eyesight, if not your life, because if a chamber bursts, (they generally are quite a bit thinner than their corresponding nitro descendants) the excitement will be close to your face.
Definitely not worth the risk.
For a bit more money you can just buy a nitro double in the first place.

Fact is, with today's steels and heat treating methods, the Jones patent would probably hold up to as much chamber pressure and recoil as any mortal, even Matt85, could possibly stand against their shoulder.

However stout that it is, as Red Leg also pointed out, this type of lockup is slower to open and close than the more popular top lever.
So this, combined with obvious higher cost of manufacturing, no doubt is why you don't see them on today's hinge frame rifles or shotguns.

While I'm on the "breach locking design rant":
Probably the strongest breach system for doubles would be the falling block.
It is very common on single shots (such as the Ruger, Dakota Model 10, antique Farquarsons and others) but seldom seen on doubles for some reason.
They have been made but not many, as far as I can tell.
It is stronger in lockup (in terms of resisting wear from high chamber pressure and heavy recoil), than same caliber bolt actions generally are (the falling block's extractors or ejectors are typically not very robust though).

The tilting block found on Martini, Peabody and some other single shots (as well as the Savage Model 99 lever action repeater) is another extremely strong breach design but, I do not know of any double having been built with this design.
It would add length to the rifle or shotgun, whereas the hinge frame adds virtually nothing to length and the falling block action adds very little to over-all length.

Sorry for the length and tedium of my blathering here.

Blah, blah, blah, out,
Velo Dog.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Man those bpe rifles are neat

RIGBY 577/500 BPE- UNBELIEVABLE COND- MINT BORES- 95% ORIG CASE COLORS- MECHANICALLY APPEARS UNFIRED- 60% ENGRAVING- REBOUNDING LOCKS- SOLID as NEW for sale

RIGBY 577/500 BPE- UNBELIEVABLE COND- MINT BORES- 95% ORIG CASE COLORS- MECHANICALLY APPEARS UNFIRED- 60% ENGRAVING- REBOUNDING LOCKS- SOLID as NEW for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

 

[Green Chile]

Man those bpe rifles are neat

RIGBY 577/500 BPE- UNBELIEVABLE COND- MINT BORES- 95% ORIG CASE COLORS- MECHANICALLY APPEARS UNFIRED- 60% ENGRAVING- REBOUNDING LOCKS- SOLID as NEW for sale

RIGBY 577/500 BPE- UNBELIEVABLE COND- MINT BORES- 95% ORIG CASE COLORS- MECHANICALLY APPEARS UNFIRED- 60% ENGRAVING- REBOUNDING LOCKS- SOLID as NEW for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

I handled that gun and the consecutively numbered Rigby at Champlins recently before he listed them. Nice guns.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I handled that gun and the consecutively numbered Rigby at Champlins recently before he listed them. Nice guns.

They’re in amazing shape for being 130+ years old! It’s great to see stuff like that is still out there

 

[Pondoro]

The rifle at the bottom is my Lyon & Lyon .577 3" BPE, made as late as 1900 and regulated for the 167/650 load..ie the heaviest .577 BPE load..

 

[Velo Dog]

Pondoro,

Those rifles are beauties !

I once met a man who had taken an elephant, with a double, in caliber .577 BPE.
It was an English built, Jones under lever, outside hammer design, very similar looking to the one you have here in your picture.

He was a friend of Cal Pappas and my prune faced memory recalls only sketchy details Cal had described to me about the rifle, the hand load and the hunt itself.
This was back quite a few years ago.

It seems like he said it was the 3” version like yours and the hand load used that time was, a very hard cast lead alloy of some combination, poured into a flat meplat shape bullet mold (mould ?) of some sort.
It worked at least as well as that historic cartridge has always worked on heavy, dangerous animals for about 140 (almost 150 ?) years now.

I truly love the old timey sporting goods.
To quote “Dorothy” in that vintage Hollywood movie, “The Wizard of Oz” ….. “Rifles and Shotguns and Flyrods Oh My”.

Thanks for posting photos of your rifles.
Looking at them has a calming affect upon my tempestuous soul.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.