The "Best" big bore cartridges ever created!!!

Tug - Help remind me, exactly how many dangerous game animals have you taken in Africa? When I’m on the sticks in scrub and thorns, there are a lot of things that come to mind, but it’s not thousandths of an inch of caliber or foot pounds of energy.
 
@Northern
As someone who owns both a 458WM and 470NE it’s an interesting comparison between the two and how much “less efficient” the 470NE is.

All the classic African cartridges with voluptuous case capacities (Cordite) will score poorly here compared to their standard action brethren.

Also, where’s the recoil factor?

Recoil table is here, https://chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

This is the only factory load data I could find on the internet for 458 Lott at 2300fps

500 gr
DGS 86.0 gr 2520 (Accurate) 2310fps 61000psi Hodgdon

1741577523069.jpeg


Only for the price of 9 more foot pounds of recoil though compared to 458 Winchester Mag.

Also 34.4% looks like PH cares about efficient cartridges after all, whether they know it or not! :sneaky:
 
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Tug - Help remind me, exactly how many dangerous game animals have you taken in Africa? When I’m on the sticks in scrub and thorns, there are a lot of things that come to mind, but it’s not thousandths of an inch of caliber or foot pounds of energy.
318AE - Remind me how many animals have you taken in Siberia at -28 °C?

Numbers are numbers if you don't like them, stick your head in the sand!
 
@Tug,

i appreciate the effort you put into this thread. keep in mind, you will likely get a bit of backlash when you dis their favorite gun, caliber, dog etc. ;)

now I'm gonna sit back and see what happens, :A Popcorn:
 
Interesting post with a lot of info.
I might be bias owning a 458 Lott and loving it. (y)

All this number crunching is fun but none of the animals we hunt read these or understand them.

If it was a numbers game only most of us would have owned a 460 WBY the other part of the coin and for me the more important part is the actual bullet the rifle does not kill the animal.
The bullet is causing the trauma and damage to kill an animal.
Most bullets 30 years ago could not handle the 460 WBY velocities that has changed but the severe recoil has not.
 
Interesting and obviously in a perfect world this data would be relevant. I had Hornady .458 Lott ammo that was shooting @2050 fps which is like shooting the .458WM and not good when hunting big bodied Botswana elephants! I pulled the bullets and lo and behold clumped powder! So we are back to square one and after much deliberation with Pierre van der Walt I settled on getting a .450 Rigby as my second big bore to back up clients . The first is the .505 shooting 600 grains. Recoil is stout but not as noticeable as an elephant foot on your chest!
Pierre developed the .458 African some time ago to overcome all these difficulties. It’s basically a 404 Jeffery necked up and by his own admission very similar to Jeff Coopers .460 GA .
@Tug could you also please run the data for the .416 Taylor which is a necked down .458 win mag . I suspect this will surprise us especially in the recoil department!
 
@Tug Thank you for taking the time to prepare and post the data. It is a fascinating comparison to take into consideration. I can only imagine the amount of work it took to sort all of that into the digestible and concise formats you created and I appreciate it.
 
Tug, the information is interesting, but the tone makes me want to dismiss it. Pleasant conversations are useful and fun, and might even enlighten a few folks. Being argumentative will cause you to be ignored, even if you're right.
 
The Best, is easy for me
500 A2-simple. 460 Weatherby brass (which is great) fire-form, load 98-100 grains of Varget, 570 grain Barnes X
My rifle BRNO 602, mine started as 458 Win, action needed no work, Bell & Carlson stock, steel picatinny rail, TPS rings, Nikon Slughunter scope
 
I personally have a SERIOUS jonesing for one of the Marlin .45-70 Cowboy guns, the ones with the long barrel and the full-length magazine tube.

Looks so darned classic!
 
((sips drink, yeah this is going to be a big one))

Well, I'm back and have decided after feedback from my last thread to improve my data table to analyse the best big bore cartridges for you!

Why do all of this?
I would like to rationalise the performance of cartridges and their bullets. To logically make clear the performance variables of each cartridge. To allow people to make their own concise choices based on the variables important for them. As hunters and shooters, we compare cartridge performances too much based on our own/others' emotions and anecdotes, stories. Which can make the job of choosing tools to fit our needs more difficult than it needs to be sometimes! Hopefully this table can make the task visually simple while grounding our perspectives. (Note I'm not against people choosing based on other choices, eg, fun, historical value, etc.)

So how does it work and how did I put it together?

First, I've decided to use Hornady factory loads for all the cartridges, different companies will have different results. But Hornady is the only one with the Nitro express cartridge data, and I decided consistency is key. So I'll only be using Hornady data. The data shown will be using their maximum loads. The data will be colour coded, red is bad and green is good.

On the tables you will find:
- Bullet type and weight
- Powder used and amount of
- Max velocity
-Energy of the bullet
- Energy efficiency of the cartridge
( i.e how much energy does the cartridge convert from the powder's chemical to the bullet kinetic energy in percentage)
- Bullets Momentum ( momentum is the bullet impetus, its forward force of motion, which is vital for reaching the vitals)
- Sectional density ( The ratio of a bullet mass to its cross-sectional area. Useful in determining the bullet's penetrative capability in the animal.)
- Sectional area ( The area of the bullet, determined by the diameter of its calibre. Useful in determining the size of the bullet's wounding channel into the animal)

Why am I not using "Taylor's knock out factor"
I believe the TKO number can be a misleading indicator of the performance of a bullet on animals and is arbitrary, for example, a bullet can have an impressive score due to large mass and calibre, but have poor sectional density, which will affect the bullet's performance, incapacitating an animal effectively.

I believe Momentum, sectional density, and sectional area should be considered as independent variables, they cannot be judged or combined. Their mechanical functions are unique and each is equally important as the other. Their role in incapacitating animals is independent of each other.

With low sectional density, a bullet will struggle to penetrate.
With low momentum, a bullet's forward motion is quickly stopped.
With low sectional area, a bullet's wound channel will be small inside the animal, slowing incapacitation.

Without further ado,


View attachment 670212

View attachment 670214


Personal analysis

The best cartridges for big game hunting are, without a doubt, the 458 Win Mag and the 458 Lott, they combine great kill potential with amazing efficiencies with low powder charges comparatively. This leaves little doubt in my mind why these cartridges are the preferred culling and game ranger cartridges of Africa today! The 450 Rigby scored exceptionally good as well. However, you are paying for that performance with a lot more recoil and are over the physical limit of most people. Likewise with the 460 Wby Mag

The 458 calibre are the only ones to have green in every box, every other calibre group had compromises. The 505 Gibbs has impressive killing power, sadly that killing power is on both ends of the rifle, with lowest energy conversion on the list!!! Some people may ask themselves if the lemon is worth the squeeze with this one.

The next best choice would have to be the 400 calibres, with the 416 Remington mag may be the finest choice among them, followed by the 416 Ruger, which is like a unicorn, nobody has seen them ever! :LOL: The 404 Jeffery data does not illustrate its full modern potential but is close to the performance of its original loading. The 416 Rigby, of course, is designed for cordite high temperature pressure sensitivities, which reminds me of sensitive people when I criticise its poor energy conversion efficiency.:sneaky: The 405 Winchester is a great example of a cartridge with a good TKO factor but a terrible cartridge for hunting thick-skinned dangerous game due to poor momentum and sectional density. Lastly, the 416 Wby Mag highlights its high momentum sectional density value, but its low out of balance sectional area value, which might explain why it is prone to over penetrating and wounding animals standing behind the target.

The .358 to 375 calibre all suffer from the same problems, namely a lack of sectional area and a lack of momentum. But except the last 3 cartridges in the group, benefit from reduced recoil. This 375 group will always be valued for its versatility for hunting plains, good trajectories and being the legal minimum for hunting dangerous game. Out of the group, the 375 H&H is the most balanced in performance with moderate recoil. With the benefit of being the most popular. The 375 Rugers performance is great for only a 20-inch barrel, and the 35 Whelen, while greatly efficient, is lacking in the killing power compared to the rest.

Lastly, the double rifle cartridges. The data surprised and highlighted why the 500 Nitro express is the preferred elephant cartridge for good reason, beating the 470 Nitro express in all variables except for producing slightly recoil. With 16 per cent more sectional area and 11 per cent more momentum. It is a significant upgrade in performance for a smaller cartridge case as well, being only 3" long compared to 3 1/4" of the 470 Nitro express. Out of all the cartridges, the 450 Nitro express is the most balanced in efficiency, killing power and recoil, and it is little surprising why it was the most popular cartridge during Africa's golden years before its ban. I think it's time for people to appreciate it again, as the do-it-all powerhouse it truly was!!! (Please start making more factory double rifles in it!)

For recoil reference

If you made it this far, thank you very much for reading.

All criticisms and opinions welcomed.

Tug.
Wheres's my beloved 500 Jeffery and the 505 Gibbs in this list? Big bores start at .50
 

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Currently doing a load development on a .404 Jeffrey... it's always surprising to load .423 caliber bullets into a .404 caliber rifle. But we love it when we get 400 Gr North Fork SS bullets to 2300 FPS, those should hammer down on buffalo. Next up are the Cutting Edge solids and then Raptors... load 200 rounds of ammo for the customer and on to the next gun!
 
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