The “458 Winchester Magnum, all the cartridge you’ll ever need” thread

[Riflecrank]

Says the person that has made a career of spreading half truths to inflate his own ego.

Heh-heh-heh ... I am taking flack ... sure sign I am over target.
Yippee-ki-yay.

 

[Riflecrank]

CZDiesel,
Very nice.
Interesting Hornady ammo results. You have a fast rifle.
It happens.
Tim Sundles the Buffalo Bore proprietor has an 18" custom rifle and a 22" factory rifle
that shoot his 400-gr TSX to about same MV.
The 18" rifle was maybe 2 fps faster.
I have over a dozen diffeent factory loads for the .458 WinMag that I have chronographed over the last couple of years,
at least 10 of them in the same rifle.
It will be fun to make a table showing claimed MV and my rifle's MV ...
Will do later.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I posted this in another thread thinking it was this one? I was a little foggy eyed I think lol But thought I’d post again in the correct thread for posterity…

This is my 2002 Winchester Custom Shop 458WinMag with a 22” bbl that shoots Hornady DGS to an honest 2170ftps and DGX to 2150ftps! This was verified through both LabRadar and Garmin Doppler double verified! My best friend and @CoElkHunter witnessed…
That easily matches the 450NE or 470NE so what more do you want?!?!
Seriously! All the 458WinMag sceptics WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!!!
Now I have no hate for the 458 Lott, but as a client I don’t see any imaginable reason for it? None!
The Lott these days is a specialized cartridge, like the Cap and the 500’s, for DG PH’s! And even then as the boys at Dalton and York who hunt a ton of DG will tell you the 458WinMag is plenty as that is what they use…
I have an upcoming DG for both Ele and Buff on the Save. My PH asked me what I’d be bringing and I told him that I have a 375 H&H, a 416 Rem, and a 458WinMg and he said without hesitation “Bring the 458!”. That’s all I need to know on the subject as he does this for a living!

That is the Custom Shop 458 on the bottom that I gave to my nephew and that is a 50 yard three shot group open sight out my 458 with DGS! Again what more do you want?

CZ, I’m sold. I’ll take it. Let me know what shipping is.

 

[Northern Shooter]

CZDiesel,
Very nice.
Interesting Hornady ammo results. You have a fast rifle.
It happens.
Tim Sundles the Buffalo Bore proprietor has an 18" custom rifle and a 22" factory rifle
that shoot his 400-gr TSX to about same MV.
The 18" rifle was maybe 2 fps faster.
I have over a dozen diffeent factory loads for the .458 WinMag that I have chronographed over the last couple of years,
at least 10 of them in the same rifle.
It will be fun to make a table showing claimed MV and my rifle's MV ...
Will do later.

That’s something I’d like to see.

 

[odonata]

So, the 38 spl is better than a 357 mag?
Never have understood the love for the Win Mag but hate of the Lott.

It appears from that statement, that it's not the only thing you don't understand. First off, a 38 Special has a pressure rating of 17,000 PSI. A 357 Magnum is rated for 44,000 PSI. The reason you don't shoot 357 Magnum ammo in a 38 Special revolver is that its dangerous because of the huge disparity between the rounds. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

If you took your thumb off the scale & actually wanted to make a relevant analogy, then the 308 Winchester vs the 30-06 would be a much better choice. That's a small apple compared to a slightly bigger apple. Similar pressure ratings, identical bullet weights traveling at comparable speeds up to 180gr. A 30-06 fan can always claim "I have a longer case that can hold more powder so I'm the better cartridge". But then the 308 fan says, "I can do everything you can do out of a shorter action with less recoil" or "I can fit in an AR-10". Having a longer case isn't everything and if you pay attention to modern cartridge & chamber designs, you would know that. Being able to produce more recoil out of a longer action is not synonymous with being the superior choice. A lot of the 458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott discussions revolve around whether a marginal improvement is worth abandoning a standard-sized action for. Quite often the juice isn't worth the squeeze so the answer is commonly "No!".

To help you understand the love for the 458 Win Mag, all you have to do is look at the versatility it provides to a reloader. Everything from mild 45-70 type loads up to power levels that can take the largest animals on the planet. It's a chambering that has a lot of range in its application. The capabilities of the 458 Win Mag in 2024 is not identical to the one in 1956.

As far as hate for the Lott goes, I think you confuse favoring the 458 Win Mag over the 458 Lott as an intelligent choice with hate. I own two 30-06's but no 308's. That decision was driven by one of the many reasons I chose the 458 Win Mag over the 458 Lott: It's easier to find left-handed rifles I like in those chamberings. But when I see someone (e.g. my best friend Pat) lavishing praise on his 308's, I don't automatically assume he hates the 30-06. And if he did mention things like the negatives of the required longer action or the fact that he loves his 308 M1A National Match, if I'm being honest with myself, he's got some pretty valid points about the quality & versatility of a comparable but shorter cartridge. Acknowledging those valid points doesn't diminish my Sako or my Steyr in the least. If you're happy with your 458 Lott, then enjoy it.

Says the person that has made a career of spreading half truths to inflate his own ego.

The main problem I have with this statement is that @Riflecrank repeatedly backs up his statements with chronograph readings, charts & photos. Most of the people who attack him like you tend to stick out their tongue & belligerently go "nuh-uh!". If you want to be contributing part of this thread then here's how you do it: List the half truths that he spread. List the actual truths that debunk his assertions & can be verified by the rest of us so we can alter our opinions or make an informed decision. He's backing his statements up with data that I can verify at the range. I would be interested to see what detailed counter arguments you have to present. I have absolutely zero hate for the 458 Lott and I love things that are quantifiable. Change my mind and I'll gladly admit it. So far, I find your child-like insults & flawed analogies to not be very compelling since they smack more of insecurity than reasoned logic. Terse negative one-liners as a response to data-driven posts carry zero weight with me.

If I go online & buy commercial ammo that is limited by SAAMI / CIP specifications, then the 458 Lott is the more powerful choice. But quite often, that's not what is being discussed in 458 Win Mag threads. What we're discussing is possibilities, maximizing potential, flexibility, experimentation & customization generally denoted by the ubiquitous "+" sign following the WM. Arbitrary constraints like a 458 Win Mag being limited to 60,000 PSI while a 458 Lott can be loaded to 62,500 or maximum COL is not treated like scripture etched into a stone tablet. But most of all, we're having a lot of fun. I think the 458 Win Mag aficionados are the most friendly & helpful group of shooters I've ever met & I'm glad they let me join the club. I find their enthusiasm to be contagious. YMMV

If there's another AH big bore shootout in Kentucky next year, I'd love for someone to bring a Ruger No. 1 in 458 Win Mag & 458 Lott. Then have a friendly contest between reloaders. If the cartridge extracts cleanly without deformation, a blown primer or visible signs of too much pressure, then it goes onto the scoreboard. It would be interesting to see how the two cartridges stacked up against each other in a joust when being championed by their respective fans.

 

[Riflecrank]

odonata,
Your sortie scored a direct hit with a bunker buster.
Impressive !

 

[Northern Shooter]

So have we as a community come to the consensus that the 458 WM is THE optimal dangerous game big bore cartridge and that anything larger and more powerful is excessive and destined for the scrap pile?

 

[Riflecrank]

Northern Shooter.
I wish I had learned that 40 years ago.
Well, the rest of them are like cars to a car guy,
or motorcycles to a motorcycle guy,
or like postage stamps to a philatelist.
It's all good fun,
as long as we realize the .458 Winchester Magnum cannot be beat for serious business,
and it is fun too.

 

[Riflecrank]

Twelve factory loads chronographed to compare to factory claim were all done in this rifle:

9 lbs 6 oz with Near and red dot.
9 lbs 4 oz with 2-piece bases and red dot.
Supporting documents for each load will follow, from the bowels of my 'puter.

 

[Riflecrank]

Hornady 500-gr DGX and DGS factory loads, claimed 2140 fps for each.
In above rifle:
DGX = 2146 fps
DGS = 2135 fps
Average for both is 2140.5 fps: Close enough to call it honest.
Will look for ambient

 

[Riflecrank]

Federal Fusion 500-gr factory load:
Claimed 2090 fps MV, chronographed in same 23-7/8" barrel: 2192 fps

Even at such a low ambient temperature as 46*F.

 

[Riflecrank]

Federal factory load with 500-gr Woodleigh HYDRO claimed 2050 fps. Chronographed: 2062 fps

 

[Riflecrank]

Federal factory load, 500-gr Barnes Banded Solid, FN brass monometal, claimed: 2050 fps
Chronographed: 2166 fps

I do not know when the factory produced these, but they were gathering dust in Kentucky and seem to be aging well.
The fourth one that I have from Federal factory is next.

 

[Riflecrank]

Federal factory load, 400-gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, old version (there is a nickel-plated multi-cannelured/grooved version now, IIRC),
claimed: 2250 fps MV
Chronographed: 2345 fps

I am guessing that was RL-7 or similar powder, note 77*F temperature.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Looks like the Federal loads are over performing / under listing their velocities.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

So have we as a community come to the consensus that the 458 WM is THE optimal dangerous game big bore cartridge and that anything larger and more powerful is excessive and destined for the scrap pile?

Not sure how you came to that. What most have come to is that the .458 Win Mag is entirely adequate. It pummeled the creatures at both ends with plenty of authority, but that does not mean other similar rounds don't also perform.

For myself, I don't see a need to own a Lott, but I still lust for a .470 NE in a DR and let's face it, a .470 can't do anything a .458 WM doesn't do (500 gr. at 2150 fps). Someone else might want .500 Dragon Slayer which will kill anything the Winnie will, but how dead does something need to.be?

 

[Riflecrank]

Barnes Vortex line of factory ammo, 450-gr TSX,
one of the rare factory loads nowadays that did not perform up to the snuff claimed.
Claimed MV: 2240 fps
Chronographed: 2192 fps

More on that 510-gr RNSN "Super-X" load from Winchester ammo factory that was date-coded to 1996 production, to follow.

 

[Riflecrank]

Here is the only other factory load that underperformed its claim,
Norma 500-gr Swift A-Frame claimed 2117 fps (converted from metric).
Chronographed = 2025 fps for 8 shots , but with nice standard deviation of only 6.8 fps.

50-yard target above for initial chronographing. This was checked in A Ruger No. 24" as well as the Winchester M70 23-7/8" and found to be very consistent. Repeatable and very close to this in the Ruger No. 1 also.

 

[Riflecrank]

Norma factory load with Barnes RN brass monometal solid, claimed 2067 fps.
Chronographed: 2102 fps

Note light weight of the Norma case compared to other makes.
Norma brass has about a 4.5-gr extra water capacity.

 

[Riflecrank]

Winchester factory ammo that was at social security retirement age when I shot it, and two other slightly newer vintages: I see now that these were fired in a 25" Shilen barrel on a CZ 550 Magnum action at 50*F.
I guess I did that for reason that original M70 African had a 25" barrel.
The CZ/Shilen, Ruger No. 1, and Super Grade M70 all give close enough results for "factory ammo work."

The 1996 ammo fired in the 23-7/8" barrel of the M70 Super Grade:

Different day, temp, or different box of ammo, or the 23-7/8" M70 is faster than the 25" Shilen/CZ ?