Standard Length or Magnum Action, which camp are you in?

[Spooksar]

Either I figured out 50 years ago how not to short stroke a bolt action.

 

[Velo Dog]

All this short magnum development is the solution to a nonexistent problem.

The only “good” this endless list of new cartridges does for anyone is, (as others have already pointed out) - it raises the manufacturer’s profit margin.

The worst of it is that, all these needless new cartridges clutter the retail shelves with ammunition that does nothing the classics haven’t already been doing extremely well.
And, in many cases, extremely well for over 100 years by now.
This leaves the original calibers much harder to find presently.

Hopefully today’s short magnum cartridge fad and their corresponding short action rifles, will wither and die from popularity (like bell bottom pants), among the masses who rush to whatever is new.

 

[Philip Glass]

Don't you have a Blaser R8? The bolt throw from battery to fully back is 4.75 inches (over 12 cm) and can house cartridge up to 3.6 inches.

I wonder if a 416RIGBY (at 3.75 inches) would work in a Blaser R8?

Yes I do have the R8!

 

[AZDAVE]

This is more of a horse for the course, kinda discussion. Unless you are building a rifle for the nostalgia of some gunsmith built a 416 Rigby for Harry Selby and I want one just like it. Use the appropriate action length for the round. My 505 Gibbs, 404 Jeffery, and 375 H&H have magnum length actions. The 458WM, 416 Ruger, 400 whelen, and 9.3x62 all have standard length actions. So pick the round you want for your DG hunts and get a rifle that as the appropriate length action. The odds of it feeding properly and being balance correctly are much higher. Without a lot of work by a GOOD gunsmith.

 

[BeeMaa]

This is more of a horse for the course, kinda discussion. Unless you are building a rifle for the nostalgia of some gunsmith built a 416 Rigby for Harry Selby and I want one just like it. Use the appropriate action length for the round. My 505 Gibbs, 404 Jeffery, and 375 H&H have magnum length actions. The 458WM, 416 Ruger, 400 whelen, and 9.3x62 all have standard length actions. So pick the round you want for your DG hunts and get a rifle that as the appropriate length action. The odds of it feeding properly and being balance correctly are much higher. Without a lot of work by a GOOD gunsmith.

This is why the Hyem bolt action rifles (specifically the Martini Express for DG calibers) are so highly prized. Everything is tuned specifically for the cartridge it's being made for. Action length, magazine box, feed rails and even the extractor are precisely tuned for each rifle.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I prefer magnum length, because this is why it was invented to take big long cartridges.
World wide availability of ammunition in classic calibers is another matter.

Under world wide availability of ammo, I consider my local gunshop as well. I can find on occasion 375 HH or 458 Wm (not mag lenght), and thats it. Will have to work hard to find 416 rigby, but will be managable, and finding 375 ruger, or 416 remington ammo for me would be mission impossible

medium length action was invented just to reduce production costs.
For external and terminal ballistic, medium length will be ok. But there could be issues with weight of rifle (and recoil), or reduced mag capacity.
That being said, I managed to get magnum length ZKK in 375 as best option.
As for mag capacity this rifle holds 6+1, and with that capacity I cannot find any similar example

But, there is no more magnum length action factory rifle on budget, unless 2nd hand.
So I predict in future will be more and more medium length substitutes, while magnum length will gradually be focused for high end, elite market.

6+1 magnum action 375?? I'm not heavy gun adverse by any means (I hunt pheasants with a 31" 1961 Browning A5 magnum twelve gauge), but yours would be a gun for building biceps and abs! I am fully confident the 3+1 Mauser 98 I'm building into 404 Jeffery will be sufficient to kill more buffalo. And a lot handier than extended capacity magnum action. I do make mistakes (albeit rarely ), but I simply cannot fathom taking more than four shots at a buff without the opportunity to reload. Hmmm. I guess it has happened to me on this side of the pond. I shot my first (and best) bull elk first in the neck (did nothing), then Texas heart shot (in the poop chute), then missed a running shot, then in the head going away. Shot my last bull elk five times: twice in the neck (knocked it down both times), then bounced a bullet off his hip, then missed, then Texas heart shot. Empty gun (Springfield inexplicably was not fully loaded with six rounds) so I ran back to my pack only to discover I had a box of empty brass ... with one loaded round at the very end. Picked up the blood trail and found him laying in a shallow valley in clear-cut. As I approached to finish him with certainty (miss and I'd have to kill him with a knife!), the bull jumped up and turned to come for me. Shot him in the head. Back in those days I was a lot younger and not as experienced or the marksman I am today. Except for combat situations, I simply cannot fathom the need for rifle capacity more than five rounds (max). As I told my PH, if I can't stop a buff with four 400 gr rounds, I probably deserve to be stomped to death.

 

[Aaron N]

Gentlemen,

Even your wives know this is a no brainer! They’ll choose magnum length every time

 

[Puddle]

All this short magnum development is the solution to a nonexistent problem.

The only “good” this endless list of new cartridges does for anyone is, (as others have already pointed out) - it raises the manufacturer’s profit margin.

The worst of it is that, all these needless new cartridges clutter the retail shelves with ammunition that does nothing the classics haven’t already been doing extremely well.
And, in many cases, extremely well for over 100 years by now.
This leaves the original calibers much harder to find presently.

Hopefully today’s short magnum cartridge fad and their corresponding short action rifles, will wither and die from popularity (like bell bottom pants), among the masses who rush to whatever is new.

In my neck of the woods the shelves are now crammed with ammunition. However, nothing larger than .35 Whelen. Come to think of it, in the last 5 years or so, I've never seen any factory ammunition, along with bullets or brass larger than .35 Whelen on the store shelves.

For .366 and up its solely an online ordering game for me...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

This is more of a horse for the course, kinda discussion. Unless you are building a rifle for the nostalgia of some gunsmith built a 416 Rigby for Harry Selby and I want one just like it. Use the appropriate action length for the round. My 505 Gibbs, 404 Jeffery, and 375 H&H have magnum length actions. The 458WM, 416 Ruger, 400 whelen, and 9.3x62 all have standard length actions. So pick the round you want for your DG hunts and get a rifle that as the appropriate length action. The odds of it feeding properly and being balance correctly are much higher. Without a lot of work by a GOOD gunsmith.

If it wasn't "appropriate" Jeffery would not have built the first rimless magnum on a standard Mauser 98 action. The first Mauser magnum action was commissioned by Rigby a few years later for his 416 cartridge. It wasn't necessary because the 98 action could handle 416 pressure (as Harry Selby demonstrated for more than thirty years), but getting Mauser to make a longer action simply made production at Rigby more efficient. No need for Rigby to lengthen and widen the magazine box if Mauser does it for him. I suspect that Selby's 416 also had the bolt lugs lapped to activate the standard 98's third "safety" lug for increased pressure of 416. Presumably this was/is a standard feature in Mauser magnum actions. The longer action also made it somewhat easier to feed new thicker sharp-shouldered magnum cartridges, particularly ones with belted rims (which would be all of the big bore magnums except the first one, the 404 Jeffery). When I say "easier" I'm referring mostly to manufacturing. I haven't read anywhere that a 404 built on a standard 98 action is any less reliable than a 375 built on a magnum action. And of course, the magnum action Mauser designed had a slightly extended magazine for 4+1 capacity. In the end, the magnum action wasn't developed out of necessity as much as for manufacturing convenience and marketing something "new and improved." "Appropriate" never really factored into it.

 

[Namagiqa]

Don't you have a Blaser R8? The bolt throw from battery to fully back is 4.75 inches (over 12 cm) and can house cartridge up to 3.6 inches.

I wonder if a 416RIGBY (at 3.75 inches) would work in a Blaser R8?

I’d like an answer to this question. I think it would work in an R8 b/c the R8 is also available in .375H&H which has a magnum action. The R8 does have a .416 Remington barrel available so they would have a magazine/trigger set up for the .416 Remington but the Remington is 4mm shorter than the Rigby, so about .2” shorter. If one got a .416 Rigby barrel custom made for an R8 is the Remington mag long enough to hold Rigby cartridges? If not, is there a work around? I’m doing my research and like the R8 platform for several reasons but I would prefer the Rigby to the Remington.

 

[BeeMaa]

I’d like an answer to this question. I think it would work in an R8 b/c the R8 is also available in .375H&H which has a magnum action. The R8 does have a .416 Remington barrel available so they would have a magazine/trigger set up for the .416 Remington but the Remington is 4mm shorter than the Rigby, so about .2” shorter. If one got a .416 Rigby barrel custom made for an R8 is the Remington mag long enough to hold Rigby cartridges? If not, is there a work around? I’m doing my research and like the R8 platform for several reasons but I would prefer the Rigby to the Remington.

I owned a 416RM Blaser R8 and really enjoyed it. Problem was the weight…over 13 lbs with scope, ammo and sling. Waaaay to heavy for my tastes of carrying a rifle all day. Plus it was right at my limit for recoil. Sold it to another member who (I believe) is enjoying it.

I’d be surprised if any game animal were able to tell the difference between a 416RM and a 416RIGBY. To each their own. Best of luck with the R8 and if you want to chat about it…send me a PM.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I’d like an answer to this question. I think it would work in an R8 b/c the R8 is also available in .375H&H which has a magnum action. The R8 does have a .416 Remington barrel available so they would have a magazine/trigger set up for the .416 Remington but the Remington is 4mm shorter than the Rigby, so about .2” shorter. If one got a .416 Rigby barrel custom made for an R8 is the Remington mag long enough to hold Rigby cartridges? If not, is there a work around? I’m doing my research and like the R8 platform for several reasons but I would prefer the Rigby to the Remington.

It doesn't appear Blaser makes a rifle that can accept a magazine larger than 3.62" and 416 Rigby is 3.75 overall length. I doubt there is a workaround.

 

[Namagiqa]

It doesn't appear Blaser makes a rifle that can accept a magazine larger than 3.62" and 416 Rigby is 3.75 overall length. I doubt there is a workaround.

Given these 2 replies, it sounds like my best bet is to get a Blaser R8 for PG and American game and a different rifle for DG. As I interpret this evidence, if I'm going to get a different rifle in a dedicated DG calibre, I should get a double rifle. Well, if I can pay off what I owe to Uncle Sam, that sounds like a pretty good plan. A Blaser R8 for DG (although it could include initial shots on leopard) and a double for DG, including follow up on leopard. Guess I will just have to work a bit more to afford the various rifles.

 

[Velo Dog]

In my neck of the woods the shelves are now crammed with ammunition. However, nothing larger than .35 Whelen. Come to think of it, in the last 5 years or so, I've never seen any factory ammunition, along with bullets or brass larger than .35 Whelen on the store shelves.

For .366 and up its solely an online ordering game for me...

The local Cabela’s store here in Anchorage, Alaska hopefully is receiving more
ammunition than it had been the last time I visited there (about 2 months ago).
They definitely had sparse ammunition inventory.

I don’t recall what all calibers were available the day I went there except that, there were a dozen or so boxes of 6.5 Creedmoor plus, a box here and a couple boxes there of calibers that I do not own a rifle for.
Speaking of large bore calibers, I believe there were two boxes of .450/400 NE 3” there for sale.

I don’t remember seeing any of your mentioned .35 Whelen ammunition but then, I really wasn’t looking for it.
I’ve always liked that one but unfortunately, I do not own a rifle for it.
Likewise, the 9.3x62 is another wonderful hunting cartridge but, I don’t believe the local stores here have had that one in awhile either.

 

[mychael]

As for the cartridge 500 Jeffery, we all agree that this cartridge belongs in a Magnum action. Jeffery did not without reasons immediately offer rifles of this caliber with such systems. The rebated rim is a other problem, the Magnum Action does not solve all the problems associated with it.

By the way noticed, I bought an rifle caliber 500 Jeffery ( at the time rather caliber 12,7x70 Schüler ) above all not because of the advantages of this cartridge but because I am an aficionados of this one since my youth. The weapon could also be built according to my ideas, shorter, lighter and therefore easier to handle. The cartridge 505 Gibbs was also under discussion at the time the rifle was built, but would have ultimately resulted in a slightly bigger and heavier weapon. However, I know that the cartridge 505 Gibbs offers some advantages over the cartridge 500 Jeffery.

Agree..

 

[318AE]

If it wasn't "appropriate" Jeffery would not have built the first rimless magnum on a standard Mauser 98 action. The first Mauser magnum action was commissioned by Rigby a few years later for his 416 cartridge. It wasn't necessary because the 98 action could handle 416 pressure (as Harry Selby demonstrated for more than thirty years), but getting Mauser to make a longer action simply made production at Rigby more efficient. No need for Rigby to lengthen and widen the magazine box if Mauser does it for him. I suspect that Selby's 416 also had the bolt lugs lapped to activate the standard 98's third "safety" lug for increased pressure of 416. Presumably this was/is a standard feature in Mauser magnum actions. The longer action also made it somewhat easier to feed new thicker sharp-shouldered magnum cartridges, particularly ones with belted rims (which would be all of the big bore magnums except the first one, the 404 Jeffery). When I say "easier" I'm referring mostly to manufacturing. I haven't read anywhere that a 404 built on a standard 98 action is any less reliable than a 375 built on a magnum action. And of course, the magnum action Mauser designed had a slightly extended magazine for 4+1 capacity. In the end, the magnum action wasn't developed out of necessity as much as for manufacturing convenience and marketing something "new and improved." "Appropriate" never really factored into it.

Hmmm…. My 404 Jeffery, made by Jeffery, is on a magnum Mauser action. Same as my 333 Jeffery by the same maker. Many were. Of course, some were made on standard actions too. Just like 416 Rigbys made by Rigby, and 375s made by H&H - a mix of both. Not all big bore magnums other than the 404 have belted rims - ie 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs etc etc. I think Jeffery made some 404s on standard actions because it’s what they had, and they could - expediency and cost. The first rate guns were built on magnum actions. I have five pre-war magnum Mauser British guns. As much as I like my 318s and 425s on standard actions, the big rounds just feel right on the magnum actions.

 

[mark-hunter]

6+1 magnum action 375?

empty rifle without scope, 4.2 kg (9.2 pounds)
I dont think is extended mag, it is flush with stock. So, standard.

Now, that you mentioned, I dont remember I ever needed more then 3 shots in any hunting situation.
But I prefer having few more available.

Due to weight, recoil is OK, I can shoot it all day long. After your comment, I went back to check around, here is what chuck hawks said about weight:

Rifles for extreme cartridges such as the .338 Ultra Mag, .338 Lapua, .340 Weatherby, and .375 H&H Magnum need to weigh 10-11 pounds or more, and even in such heavy rifles they will still generate very uncomfortable recoil.

So, mine is within this standard when loaded and scoped.
And is made of wood and steel, no plastic...
I love it!

 

[Nevada Mike]

empty rifle without scope, 4.2 kg (9.2 pounds)
I dont think is extended mag, it is flush with stock. So, standard.

Now, that you mentioned, I dont remember I ever needed more then 3 shots in any hunting situation.
But I prefer having few more available.

Due to weight, recoil is OK, I can shoot it all day long. After your comment, I went back to check around, here is what chuck hawks said about weight:

Rifles for extreme cartridges such as the .338 Ultra Mag, .338 Lapua, .340 Weatherby, and .375 H&H Magnum need to weigh 10-11 pounds or more, and even in such heavy rifles they will still generate very uncomfortable recoil.

So, mine is within this standard when loaded and scoped.
And is made of wood and steel, no plastic...
I love it!

I somewhat disagree. The 375 H&H at least, simply does not have the level of recoil that requires a 10 lb.+ rifle. IMO, 9 lbs or so is enough weight to make .375 recoil tolerable. Pushing a 300 grain bullet at 2500 fps does not equate to bigger calibers with 400 grain bullets at 2300+ fps, which are better at 10 lbs. or more of rifle weight. YMMV.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Hmmm…. My 404 Jeffery, made by Jeffery, is on a magnum Mauser action. Same as my 333 Jeffery by the same maker. Many were. Of course, some were made on standard actions too. Just like 416 Rigbys made by Rigby, and 375s made by H&H - a mix of both. Not all big bore magnums other than the 404 have belted rims - ie 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs etc etc. I think Jeffery made some 404s on standard actions because it’s what they had, and they could - expediency and cost. The first rate guns were built on magnum actions. I have five pre-war magnum Mauser British guns. As much as I like my 318s and 425s on standard actions, the big rounds just feel right on the magnum actions.

Jeffery started making 404 in 1905. Mauser didn't come out with a magnum action till 1913 and initially, according to some sources, exclusively for Rigby calibers. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Jeffery continued to make the 404 on standard actions into the thirties. Wasn't there some restrictions from Versailles Treaty that got in the way during interwar years?

If my standard action 404 cycles and shoots okay, it will feel right enough for me.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

empty rifle without scope, 4.2 kg (9.2 pounds)
I dont think is extended mag, it is flush with stock. So, standard.

Now, that you mentioned, I dont remember I ever needed more then 3 shots in any hunting situation.
But I prefer having few more available.

Due to weight, recoil is OK, I can shoot it all day long. After your comment, I went back to check around, here is what chuck hawks said about weight:

Rifles for extreme cartridges such as the .338 Ultra Mag, .338 Lapua, .340 Weatherby, and .375 H&H Magnum need to weigh 10-11 pounds or more, and even in such heavy rifles they will still generate very uncomfortable recoil.

So, mine is within this standard when loaded and scoped.
And is made of wood and steel, no plastic...
I love it!

"Extended" bottom metal usually does not extend below the stock ... but stock must be custom made. I had the option of ordering 4+1 extended magazine bottom metal for my 98 Mauser but I don't have the capability to make a stock. Admittedly, there are a few things I can't do ... but just a few. Been wanting to try my hand at brain surgery but can't find anyone who'll let me practice on them.