SOUTH AFRICA: Tootabi Hunting Safaris What Is The Wounded Policy And Billing Issues

[gizmo]

1) NO BLOOD NO FEE
I will not charge a client a fee unless there is proof the animal was wounded. IE blood
2) at no times should rules in regards to charging clients extra for a possible something should be made like that and changed in violation of the contract/rules. End of the day, buck stops at the outfitter. Rules should be clear and concise. Just because someone offers to pay for something that they are not contractually obligated to pay for the outfitter should refuse payment for that particular item. It is a integrity issue.
3) Do not charge clients for services not received or services they are unaware of. All charges should be clear and understood by both parties.
4) in regards to merchandise such as hats, shirts, etc... I give those as give always and will not charge for them unless items above and beyond what was given are requested. Any additional merchandise above and beyond what is given can be charged for but the client must know up front. Example, I give client X a shirt and a cap. He/ she asks for two more caps and shirts for so and so. I tell client X sure but the additional items cost such and such$. ( NOT charging for the original gifts) Either they buy it or they don't. It is unethical in my opinion to give someone something, the client believes is a gift, then go back and charge for it. Another situation where all charges should be clear and understood from the beginning.
Just my two cents.

 

[ChasingHemingway]

I don't understand the issue with paying for wounded animals. As hunters we should practice and be proficient at shooting from different ranges and positions. Missing and wounding animals should not be a common occurrence! If people are not capable of shooting their rifle competently then they should not be hunting animals and should learn how to shoot on the range. I understand anyone can pull a shot or mess one up, but this should not be as common as it seems to be on here.

Stick to shooting at ranges that you are competent at making a clean kill at or dont shoot and get closer. Im not trying to sound high all mighty here, and I have wounded and lost animals but I wouldn't need all my fingers on one hand to count them and I shoot around 80 + animals a year.

Practice, practice, practice and you should have no issues.

Even the best of us miss - I agree with practicing to reduce the risk of missing and/or wounding an animal. I have missed and I have wounded an animal, but in situations like these you hope common sense wins out.

dt

 

[Ado]

No blood no pay is my motto - unless you believe you hit the animal then it's pretty clear that you pay.

I was pressured into taking a shot at a running zebra last year, in which hindsight I should not have shot. My Secondary PH was frustrated as the Buff were causing us some considerable challenge, and virtually screamed shoot, so I shot. I believed I missed, but the tracker thought it may have been a hit. We spent a whole morning searching high and low, but no blood, no indication of any hit. My main PH said no charge which I though was fair, but as mentioned if I though I had hit is, even with no blood I would have been fine with paying...

I also agree as ethical hunters we try our very best each and every time we shoot, but sometimes we miss. All we can do is our best, practice and make sure we are ready for that moment of truth when it arrives.

On a final note, I feel privileged to hunt in Africa... You takes the good and bad Africa has to throw at you... Just never let it sour you!

Ado

 

[dobber]

The cost of the animal and the shot was discussed and agreed upon at the time, blood or no blood there was discussion and an agreement made
Items listed on an invoice that shouldn't have been charged could be a simple clerical error, i know on my statement there are items with no charges and some with charges. In an effort to make sure items are tracked they are likely put on an invoice for something as simple as tracking, and eroniously a dollar amount put in due to the software. Dealing with such simple things as an excel file with formula driven spaces pulled from a detail tab, could be the reason, either way that was discussed and removed

Should have argued no blood no pay at the time and not agreed to pay for an animal you later decided to go back on
error on final statement was discussed and cleared up

 

[TokkieM]

@UKHunter you are correct in stating we have only heard one side of the story, however Loodt has been given the opportunity to reply here in an open discussion just like anyone else. I am sure he will reply once he has formulated a proper responce and course of action. Royal would not have posted this if he had not run out of options in resolving this matter privately with Loodt,this seems to have not happend. Those are deductions I make as I would like to believe I would have done the same thing.

I honestly believe that no matter how good a shot or Hunter anyone may be there will come a day that you make a mistake or your equipment will fail you. Worst case scenario you or someone else gets hurt or a animal is wounded. Now personally I don't pay much stock to the ticket price of a species or their rarity when it comes to wounded animals, a life is a life and suffering is the same for Buff or Bushpig. I have personally crawelled through enough prickly pear cactus to look like a pin cushion to find a wounded Bushpig,hands and knees for 10+ hours,I refused to send my dog in after it,so I did it myself.
I have also spent 3 days looking for a wounded Bushbuck, after 3 days and 12 men searching a area twice the size of a soccer pitch I brought in a dog. We found the Bushbuck 2-3 hours later frozen stiff no more than 50 meters from were it was shot. My point here is that if anyone believed the Blue Duiker was hit,especially the Outfitter he should have put in way more effort in the recovery of the animal. Sending a tracker 50 meters after it does not constitute a proper follow up in my book. It leaves a lot to ponder about a PH's commitment to the clients best interest and even more the animals well being. In my day as full time PH we called a hunt off for as long as needed to ensure either the wounded animal is found and dispatched or that it eluded us unhurt. Today,I would expect a high end high number short safari PH and Outfitter to at least leave a dedicated search team and dog to do the follow up if he wants to move on and hunt elsewhere. The animal and client deserve that much,the animal for its suffering and client who has to pay.
Passing judgement on this issue is easy for me,I would have done it diffrently,but I am old school.
As a point of interest here in Sweden it is illegal to hunt any game without a trained blood tracking dog which must be available within 2 hours of wounding.

It is also easy for me to read a "spiced up" invoice. It's not acceptable. I don't pay anyone for time or products I did not receive or did not ask for,neither do I charge them for it.

To be transparent I don't have a dog on this fight,this is however a forum of discussion and opinion. You can replace Loodt's name with anyone else's and I would feel exactly the same. I say again,this would be a different discussion if it was a unknown Outfitter.

 

[BRICKBURN]

. ................... ,this is however a forum of discussion and opinion. You can replace Loodt's name with anyone else's and I would feel exactly the same. ..........

Exactly! This is a great topic for discussion and there are plenty of people who can learn from this scenario.

 

[enysse]

My point here is that if anyone believed the Blue Duiker was hit,especially the Outfitter he should have put in way more effort in the recovery of the animal. Sending a tracker 50 meters after it does not constitute a proper follow up on my book. It leaves a lot to ponder about a PH's commitment to the clients best interest and even more the animals well being. In my day as full time PH we called a hunt off for as long as needed to ensure either the wounded animal is found and dispatched or that it eluded us unhurt. Today,I would expect a high end high number short safari PH and Outfitter to at least leave a dedicated search team and dog to do the follow up if he wants to move on and hunt elsewhere. The animal and client deserve that much,the animal for its suffering and client who has to pay.

I agree, a more thorough search of the area was needed. It brings a peace of mind to both parties involve. You either find the animal, find blood or you don't. It helps clear the situation up usually.

 

[siml]

Firstly, my opinion of the blue duiker, I would say it wasn't wounded, remember these small critters first line of defense is to flee, already trying to flee from the dogs...I have seen duiker duck, jump, side step even when not wounded. Surely the dogs should have smelt something

NO BLOOD NO PAY. I think that is a dumb thing to put in a contract, like many people have already stated, sometimes you won't find a drop of blood, so should the outfitter just lose out. I have never had a problem with a client about a wounded animal. ETHICS!

I can see why Royal has a bad taste in his mouth...strike 1 strike 2 strike 3....3 mistakes????

 

[Royal27]

My point here is that if anyone believed the Blue Duiker was hit,especially the Outfitter he should have put in way more effort in the recovery of the animal. Sending a tracker 50 meters after it does not constitute a proper follow up in my book. It leaves a lot to ponder about a PH's commitment to the clients best interest and even more the animals well being.

To clarify, 50 meters or so was as far as the animal was trasked after the shot, not how far or long we looked for the animal. We looked for around four hours before the decision was made to stop. A different dog was also fetched during this tie to see if it could pick up anything the other dogs missed. It did not.

 

[TokkieM]

Thank you for clearing that up Royal. So after 4 hours of searching and the use of 2 tracking dogs there was no blood found yet the Duiker was considered wounded by Loodt?

 

[TokkieM]

Thank you for clearing that up Royal. So after a 4 hour search and the use of 2 tracking dogs no blood was found but the Duiker was still considered wounded by Loodt?

 

[dobber]

and discussed and agreed upon by you that it was hit and agreed to pay for it

But, I told Loodt I would pay the fee and felt (and still feel) obligated based upon that alone. So I have paid the fee in full

 

[siml]

@dobber , have you even been in this type of situation, where animal is wounded and no signs of blood? I have seen this type of reaction from clients, they often say something because they feeling bad and disappointed. Once the spur of the moment has passed and have had time to think about the situation, they realize they have said the wrong thing. If you experienced PH, you understand the situation and would take it with a pinch of salt. Hind sight is a bastard!

 

[TokkieM]

It is not up to the client to determine if a animal is wounded or not,he pays a team of professionals good money to show him that the animal was wounded and if they are professional enough they will proove it.
Royal may have been put under the impression that it was wounded,he too may have believed it,but there was no proof as stipulated in the contract. Paying makes him a gentleman,not wrong.

If I had to let a client pay for every single time they thought they hit the animal then many would go home with empty pockets and no trophies. It has always been up to me to deliver proof of a hit or a miss,not just for the client,but for the wellbeing of the animal too.

A first time Safari client takes a shot at a Blesbuck and missed clear as day. Client however insists it was a hit and argues with the PH. PH knows for sure it was a miss but client persists it was a hit. Long story short after dark PH goes and shoots a Blesbuck and drops it in the area while the client is having supper,following morning client says "I told you I hit it".

The above example is just that a example of what can be done if you want to fool a client.

I say again no blood no money,up to the PH/Outfitter,tracker and dogs to deliver the proof,not the client.

 

[Beans]

If you have spent 4 hours and could not find anything(blood) a decision should have been taken that the animal was not hit and that there would not be a trophy fee.

I have been in that situation before. I have asked the doghandler to help find blood. That was the proof for us to pay him and the client to pay us. If no blood was found with him and his staff assisting us, a call must be made! Then there is just one!

Any animal will show a reaction when a load of 12 ga fly past it at 15-20 yards.

Where is the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ now? That is the problem that Royal is having. All 3 points that Royal has brought up is about $$$$$$$

What will the excuse be this time?

 

[billc]

If you have spent 4 hours and could not find anything(blood) a decision should have been taken that the animal was not hit and that there would not be a trophy fee.

I have been in that situation before. I have asked the doghandler to help find blood. That was the proof for us to pay him and the client to pay us. If no blood was found with him and his staff assisting us, a call must be made! Then there is just one!

Any animal will show a reaction when a load of 12 ga fly past it at 15-20 yards.

Where is the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ now? That is the problem that Royal is having. All 3 points that Royal has brought up is about $$$$$$$

What will the excuse be this time?

I figured you would crawl out of your hole over this one. You could not be more wrong that it is about the dollars only. This to royal was more on how thinks things were handled and over a bond he thought he had. He made a mistake as well as loodt and no one is saying other wise.

Believe it or not a lot of people post things to help hunters and outfitters on this site not to just come around when they can make cheap shoots. Even some of us who have hunted with loodt and plan on hunting with him again have told him he is wrong. Depending on how he decide to handle this well make me rethink this. I can say one think though as I have loodt he always listen and makes the best of things for all involved.

 

[TokkieM]

Billc you have and still come up for Loodt on every occasion,your loyalty is admirable and I am sure you have your reasons for doing so.
Mistake or not,Loodt could have sorted this out with Royal before it hit the forum. That Royal posted here seems to me a last resort to solve a issue that should never have been one.
Even if Loodt does fix this,he is fixing it because of pressure put on him and advice being given,not out of his own,that he could have done a while ago.

Oh and the fellow you just insulted up here probably has more hunting experience than all of Loodts staff and me put together. Play the issue not the man,the extra charges are dollar based and that is a issue too.

As said above, I admire your loyalty,Loodt can count himself lucky.

 

[billc]

Hunthard you don't maybe know the history on all this but when someone shows up only to pile on someone I don't care who he is or how much he has hunted. We have both had are issue with each other but I can respect you for being on here and posting to help all and even we can chat like grown ups. Showing up and jumping on someone again when he sees it is loodt is just BS and I will say so.

I will just say I am friends with loodt and royal and can tell you I know more about this then anyone here other then loodt and royal. Yes fixing it now will not be the same as if don't right then but the only thing that can change at this point is to make the best of it and learn.

If you read my post It is clear my loyalty is not blind by friendship. In the last post I said if this does not get handled right I will rethink if I hunt with him again. This can not be made perfect at this point but there is right things to do by both loodt and royal.

 

[TokkieM]

Billc no offence taken,will tell you a story about loyalty when we happen across each other around a warm fire on a dark night.
I know pretty much all of the story around the 2 Tootabi's,even before it came to AH,the EC is a small place and if you hunt the same areas you tend to run into the same stories with a diffrent spin on them. I just chose not to bring it up as I don't kick a man when his down,besides everyone has made a error in judgement at least once,that is forgivable,once.

I don't think you are the kind of guy to be blinded by frienship Billc,I said as much a few posts back.

Let's let it run its course here on AH and see what we can learn and were it brings us.

 

[Billcollector]

I have hunted Blue Duikers a couple of times with dogs. It's an awesome hunt but very difficult because the shooting is instinctive as the dogs are running the duiker and barking and it all happens quickly. A BD is a pretty soft target and it does not take much too slow him down. I am no expert, but when I hunted, both times, the dogs running the Duikers were Jack Russell's and they don't give up for anything. They are tenacious and ferocious, especially if they smell blood. Curious to know what the dogs did after the shot, how long they chased and if the BD was giving any distress signals?