SOUTH AFRICA: KoringKoppie Hunting Safaris *Warning* Stay Away

[sureshot375]

Bashing another member's animals that they are proud of because you think poorly of the outfitter seems pretty gross to me. I get the person was probably asked to come on and write a positive review by the outfitter who should come on here and do his dirty work himself. But, man, what a bad look for the site and what a horrible way to treat new members. Some people tell them to go post their own hunt report, but why would anyone want to write a hunt report with the comments people are making after posting a few photos.

I've also seen a lot of Blue Wildebeest posted to the site that looked just like that one or even smaller and everyone just said "congratulations".

So anyone who came here and made a new post about their own safari would never receive the first negative comment. It happens all the time. I really can’t recall anyone criticizing a trophy on this site before.

This situation is a little different. Here we have multiple new members show up in this thread to post their own “wonderful” experience as a counter argument to the initial poster’s complaints. At least one went as far as to insult the original poster. One of the complaints was about trophy quality and judging of trophies by the outfitter. The pictures posted by the various new members tend to validate this complaint.

Basically when you come here in a thread complaining about trophy quality, and then post photos of your own trophy as proof of the trophy quality, you are inviting a certain level of criticism.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Genuinely curious what you are referring to as a "defective horn". I am not arguing with you, I am just asking for clarification. The wildebeest in the picture seriously looks like many other wildebeest I have seen on the site where everyone said it looked great. In the Judging Wildebeest thread, this wildebeest posted seems to match the characteristics outlined in that thread.

I am surprised you can't see the difference. Here's my blue wildebeest shot on the first morning of my first safari. Note the thick bosses = mature bull. This bull just cleared SCI bronze by 1/8".

Respectable but just barely (for comparison, I have an elk rack that is 4 points shy of Boone & Crocket but gold medal SCI).

Now here's the cull from the puff piece. Note no bosses = cow or immature bull. Hardly an impressive spread. But more importantly, note the defective right horn (wildebeest's left horn). It's about half the size and odd shape. And no, it is not camera distortion. The wildebeest is posed flat face on to camera.

 

[Sabre]

I am surprised you can't see the difference. Here's my blue wildebeest shot on the first morning of my first safari. Note the thick bosses = mature bull. This bull just cleared SCI bronze by 1/8".
View attachment 626736
Respectable but just barely (for comparison, I have an elk rack that is 4 points shy of Boone & Crocket but gold medal SCI).

Now here's the cull from the puff piece. Note no bosses = cow or immature bull. Hardly an impressive spread. But more importantly, note the defective right horn (wildebeest's left horn). It's about half the size and odd shape. And no, it is not camera distortion. The wildebeest is posed flat face on to camera.
View attachment 626737

I wasn't saying I can't see a difference between your specific bull and the photo on this thread.

You said yours was a record book bull, even though it was Bronze, it still made it into record book category.

What I was saying was that I don't see a big difference between the one posted and a large number of them posted that people think are just fine representatives of the species.

I do agree with the smaller bosses and the animal's left horn being noticeably smaller than the right. But I have seen so many photos where the animal looked uneven in the photo and in person ended up being symmetrical or vice versa.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view on it.

 

[375Fox]

@375Fox and @Doubleplay
I am certain there are probably disingenuous reports posted here but those reports are not what I am referring to.
I am referring to the honest and genuine reports posted by first timers and long established members like Mark, MDWEST and Tom Leoni (who have hunted with same outfitter several times).
I have not read in any honest hunt report:
- This outfitter is the best.
- My PH is the best.
- The animals here are the best.

What I have read:
- The staff made me feel like family.
- My PH and trackers worked really hard.
- I am 100% satisfied with my experience here.
I mean what else is a first time or returning hunter supposed to say if that is the experience they had?

I’d challenge you to point to one negative comment written on a positive hunt report from any member on this site. There is no attempt anywhere to discredit positive hunt reports. The comment about invalidating a member’s comments based on their experience was written by new member sabre who appears to have joined only to comment on this thread and now has credibility based on your follow up to his comments. It became a part of this discussion when new and clearly first time African hunter reviews became a part of this thread to support the outfitter. You chose 3 well respected members (at least 2 of which have traveled extensively). Do the “puff pieces” in this thread from new members carry the same value to you?

 

[Sabre]

So anyone who came here and made a new post about their own safari would never receive the first negative comment. It happens all the time. I really can’t recall anyone criticizing a trophy on this site before.

This situation is a little different. Here we have multiple new members show up in this thread to post their own “wonderful” experience as a counter argument to the initial poster’s complaints. At least one went as far as to insult the original poster. One of the complaints was about trophy quality and judging of trophies by the outfitter. The pictures posted by the various new members tend to validate this complaint.

Basically when you come here in a thread complaining about trophy quality, and then post photos of your own trophy as proof of the trophy quality, you are inviting a certain level of criticism.

I mostly agree with you. I just think that it has gotten a bit hypocritical throughout this thread. Because the first people that came on writing their puff pieces for the outfitter, other people basically told them they weren't real and needed to prove it with more info like pictures of their animals to prove they hunted there and weren't the outfitter pretending to be clients. So then people post pictures and people get nasty about it.

And we can agree that the animals aren't giant trophies and that it substantiates OPs claims. Which I do agree with. But there is a difference between that, and saying, "That animal is trash", "Baby oryx", "I hope you didn't pay full price for culls".

I imagine we agree on 90% of the issues in this thread. I just felt like it wasn't helpful to mock people who were new to the site and proud of their trophies just because an outfitter most likely asked them to come here and write a positive review.

 

[Sabre]

I’d challenge you to point to one negative comment written on a positive hunt report from any member on this site. There is no attempt anywhere to discredit positive hunt reports. The comment about invalidating a member’s comments based on their experience was written by new member sabre who appears to have joined only to comment on this thread and now has credibility based on your follow up to his comments. It became a part of this discussion when new and clearly first time African hunter reviews became a part of this thread to support the outfitter. You chose 3 well respected members (at least 2 of which have traveled extensively). Do the “puff pieces” in this thread from new members carry the same value to you?

You're sort of proving my point about invalidating and discrediting people unnecessarily though.

I didn't join "just to comment on this thread". This just happens to be the first thread I commented on after joining and it just happens to be a long running thread with a lot of opinions. But you are trying to discredit me because I am new to posting on the site.

 

[wvfred]

I've been on three safaris in which One was a complete mess one was decent but had some things happen that I would never hunt with them again and one in Zambia that was great the other two was in Zimbabwe.I would like to have done hunt reports to warn people but this thread reminds me of why I didn't.

 

[sureshot375]

I mostly agree with you. I just think that it has gotten a bit hypocritical throughout this thread. Because the first people that came on writing their puff pieces for the outfitter, other people basically told them they weren't real and needed to prove it with more info like pictures of their animals to prove they hunted there and weren't the outfitter pretending to be clients. So then people post pictures and people get nasty about it.

And we can agree that the animals aren't giant trophies and that it substantiates OPs claims. Which I do agree with. But there is a difference between that, and saying, "That animal is trash", "Baby oryx", "I hope you didn't pay full price for culls".

I imagine we agree on 90% of the issues in this thread. I just felt like it wasn't helpful to mock people who were new to the site and proud of their trophies just because an outfitter most likely asked them to come here and write a positive review.

I think that’s a valid point. It is somewhat off putting to have that kind of negativity on AH which generally is a more welcoming place.

 

[TOBY458]

I’ll say one thing. I wish I had started at the end and worked backwards! A LONG time to wait for the PH/Outfitter to NOT respond! lol!

 

[Sabre]

I’ll say one thing. I wish I had started at the end and worked backwards! A LONG time to wait for the PH/Outfitter to NOT respond! lol!

The outfitter does seem to be responding....sort of.....by getting a bunch of other people to do their dirty work and post flowery reviews. However, I do wonder if the outfitter isn't responding for legal reasons or because of the organization's investigation.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I wasn't saying I can't see a difference between your specific bull and the photo on this thread.

You said yours was a record book bull, even though it was Bronze, it still made it into record book category.

What I was saying was that I don't see a big difference between the one posted and a large number of them posted that people think are just fine representatives of the species.

I do agree with the smaller bosses and the animal's left horn being noticeably smaller than the right. But I have seen so many photos where the animal looked uneven in the photo and in person ended up being symmetrical or vice versa.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view on it.

My point is the bull I shot made SCI bronze but that really doesn't mean much. Haven't checked but I'm sure it's WAY short of RW book minimum. It's a respectable wildebeest ... but barely. Would I shoot something less? Well, I did on my last safari. WAY less. Because my PH told me to shoot ... after I questioned the call ... twice. That one should not have been culled. It was a baby ... and wrong sex. No photo of me posed with it (though I did take a pic as it lay for proof if needed). Mistakes happen ... but mistakes aren't trophy material. They're biltong material.

I don't have much experience judging wildebeest. Very little hunting of them actually. But I cannot see how an experienced PH could not recognize, even from a distance, the asymmetry in that puff piece wildebeest's horns. In my case, I think the PH was just overly anxious to get something, anything in the salt. We'd had kinda tough luck up to that point. Needless to say I didn't pay trophy fee for that boo-boo. On the last afternoon hunting he had me stalk a springbuck that I refused to shoot. He was convinced it was a cull. I was unsure. Looked pretty good to me and I'd helped my previous PH stock three high grade rams on that property the year before. I did not want to risk shooting one of those. This guy was not pleased with my refusal and sorta made a deal about it at lodge that night. The other PH said it was a good thing I didn't shoot. One of the new rams had just staked out that end of the property. Oh well. It was a long and difficult stalk. Fun. I kicked up a bull kudu very close. Beautiful sight in the setting sun. He was a bit young to shoot. We saw twenty-seven of them that afternoon. A memorable day even if I didn't shoot anything.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I’d challenge you to point to one negative comment written on a positive hunt report from any member on this site. There is no attempt anywhere to discredit positive hunt reports. The comment about invalidating a member’s comments based on their experience was written by new member sabre who appears to have joined only to comment on this thread and now has credibility based on your follow up to his comments. It became a part of this discussion when new and clearly first time African hunter reviews became a part of this thread to support the outfitter. You chose 3 well respected members (at least 2 of which have traveled extensively). Do the “puff pieces” in this thread from new members carry the same value to you?

I agree with @375Fox on this.

The OP gave a negative hunt report for which as I previously stated, even if the truth is somewhere between the OP and the silent PH, some bad stuff happened on this hunt.

The glowingly positive hunt reports that followed concerning the subject PH seem to all be almost perfectly edited, and in very similar format and writing styles. It seems many including myself think this is more than a coincidence.

As far as those other hunters and their reports, if they had a great time for the money they spent, then good for them. But, since their hunt reports are rebuttals to the OP's report, I think they are open to honest assessment. Had they been previously posted on this forum, I am sure members would say congratulations!

Ideally the PH would have responded to the OP's comments. But he did not.

I've been on three safaris in which One was a complete mess one was decent but had some things happen that I would never hunt with them again and one in Zambia that was great the other two was in Zimbabwe.I would like to have done hunt reports to warn people but this thread reminds me of why I didn't.

I also had a hunt that I do not comment on or mention the PH on a public forum. I made the best of that experience and learned plenty from it! Others have however had positive experiences with the same PH. Good for them!

 

[Sabre]

I think that’s a valid point. It is somewhat off putting to have that kind of negativity on AH which generally is a more welcoming place.

I agree and I guess that was my main point. I have always liked reading the threads on this site and anyone that goes to Africa, when searching for information, they will inevitably end up on this site reading threads. In the past I have always felt the African hunting community (for the most part) is a very positive community that supports each other. That's not the feeling anyone would get from this thread.

 

[375Fox]

You're sort of proving my point about invalidating and discrediting people unnecessarily though.

I didn't join "just to comment on this thread". This just happens to be the first thread I commented on after joining and it just happens to be a long running thread with a lot of opinions. But you are trying to discredit me because I am new to posting on the site.

I did search your username prior to my post and saw that this was the only thread you had commented on. If you stay and participate I will retract my statement. The behavior of some of this thread really surprises me and the behavior of one unfortunately does not. I don’t agree with criticizing the trophies others have posted regardless of their intentions.

 

[Ridge Runner]

@Randy Bo

Complicated question/statement.

I have not read in any honest hunt report:
- This outfitter is the best.
- My PH is the best.
- The animals here are the best.

Complicated answer.

I hope I'm getting your implications correctly. But feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted your intent.

Regardless of being an actual first timer or as a first timer at a particular outfitter/PH, or outfitter plus a PH.

Without a vast pool of experience;.....no one will degrade a good outfitter/PH, or outfitter plus PH that the client had a good experience with....because it was a good experience the client will oratate their experience(s) many times to many others.....because the client had such a good experience(s) will possibly return.

Inevitably the client will be asked at some point: Who was the best______?
Where was thier best______?
Etc.

It will boil down to limited number of trips, number of outfitters used, number of PHs.

And why reports about good outfitters and PHs are written as they are:

- The staff made me feel like family.
- My PH and trackers worked really hard.
- I am 100% satisfied with my experience here.
I mean what else is a first time or returning hunter supposed to say if that is the experience they had?

 

[Sabre]

I did search your username prior to my post and saw that this was the only thread you had commented on. If you stay and participate I will retract my statement. The behavior of some of this thread really surprises me and the behavior of one unfortunately does not. I don’t agree with criticizing the trophies others have posted regardless of their intentions.

I think your search may have not displayed my activity correctly. Because I have "liked" comments in other threads, commented in other threads, posted my own thread, and complimented a persons dog photo.

This specific thread did spur me to create an account because I found some of the commenting surprising compared to what I had seen in the past on the site. Long time lurker, new member. The upside is it spurred me to create an account, the downside is that it has persuaded me to likely never post hunt reports. I don't think I am alone in that, as others have said similar things.

I appreciate your willingness to see both sides of the situation.

 

[Siennacoyote]

Genuinely curious what you are referring to as a "defective horn". I am not arguing with you, I am just asking for clarification. The wildebeest in the picture seriously looks like many other wildebeest I have seen on the site where everyone said it looked great. In the Judging Wildebeest thread, this wildebeest posted seems to match the characteristics outlined in that thread.

I can’t see it either but I haven’t looked at as many as others

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I can’t see it either but I haven’t looked at as many as others

This should help.

Post in thread 'SOUTH AFRICA: KoringKoppie Hunting Safaris *Warning* Stay Away' https://www.africahunting.com/threa...-safaris-warning-stay-away.84719/post-1281185

 

[Siennacoyote]

This should help.

Post in thread 'SOUTH AFRICA: KoringKoppie Hunting Safaris *Warning* Stay Away' https://www.africahunting.com/threa...-safaris-warning-stay-away.84719/post-1281185

It did . I thought I was looking at bad cameras angles . Once I was oriented I see what people are talking about . Good stuff to see for when I finally go

 

[Randy Bo]

@375Fox
My initial comment was spurred by this post on page #16 (and no other):

Doubleplay said:
“Agreed.
If I read a report of someone who went to Africa first time I take it with a grain of salt regardless who the outfitter is.
Same for the hunter goes to Africa multiple times but sticks with the same outfit.
What's the yardstick?”

For a first time hunter/reporter or a long time member that has posted multiple reports with the same outfitter; how are they supposed to interpret this? And note that there is no mention of “puff pieces” which probably account for less than 5% of the hunt reports on AH (please correct me if I’m wrong). I take it as condescending and, I can’t help but think that Mark took it the same way.

Mark Biggerstaff (one of the most respected members on this site) posted on page #18:
“Well, I assume from the comments that after 6 trips with the same outfitter, although at multiple camps ranging from Northwest, Limpopo and Kalahari my opinions don't matter.
Thats fine. I need a beak from AH anyways.
I don't know what has happened but this site has gone down hill in the last 3-4 months where it's not even pleasurable to log in and read threads.
There is to much bickering, bashing and uncalled for comments to me.
This will be my last post for awhile while I take a break from all this”.