Solid or Partition Bullets for African Lion

[CAustin]

Partition cats are soft skinned! I used the Hornady DGX.

 

[Velo Dog]

And the tonic keeps malaria away - sort'a. Almost did that this summer, though out to 200 or so, suspect the 400s would work for most PG scenarios. You would like this rifle. CZ action, Krieger barrel, and all the appropriate beads, sights and barrel band.

Excellent, it sounds like a very fine rifle and I agree the 400 gr would do well to a couple hundred yds or a bit beyond for general PG hunting.

 

[Jono Joseph]

Soft bullet no doubt even with a .375 you will go end to end with a soft.
With regards to the tonic best medicine for the mozzies by far...most effective if taken at sunset.

Shot shot

 

[DOC-404]

I have used my CZ 375 and 250gr Sierra Gameking handloads.. more than enough gun and bullet for lion.

 

[EDD]

I doubt you will find anyone on this site who will say use a solid over a Partition on lion.

Well in the sixties they mostly used solids on everything...... and most of the legends are still alive to tell the tale....
Just saying....
I'll personally opt for the Soft nose as well

 

[Jono Joseph]

No doubt that the solid works perfectly but bullets now days are made much better and they perform much better.
a a quality soft nose bullet"expandable" just increases the wound channel more among other aspects.
I still say soft bullet is best on cats as a back up as well...

Shot shot

 

[woods1126]

I was thinking Barnes TSX from the beginning. I believe I like them because my Rem. KS in 375 H&H likes them.

My question is now, 270 gr. or 300's?? I think I might opt for the 270's going a couple hundred feet a second faster, possibly expanding more, and expending more energy in the cat, rather than in the Acacia tree behind him.

Your thoughts, Kevin

 

[Hank2211]

I would think your PH would have something to say on the matter, and I would take his advice. I also think that I can predict with certainty what that advice would be - a soft nosed every time. With a big cat - soft skinned - you want to do as much internal damage as you can. You don't want an exit wound if you can avoid it - who wants to follow a lion's blood trail?

I've used Barnes X bullets on lions and they have always performed well. I think you could even go "backwards" to Nosler Partition type bullets and they would also perform well.

 

[spoonieduck]

I got into a bit of a debate with a fellow Army Cadet Force Skill at Arms Instructor over bullet choice for hunting African Lion, we both agree that the calibres used would be between .375 HandH Magnum - .450 Rigby but it is the bullet choice, he says a Solid Flat nose would be best where as I said that a Nosler Partition Bullet would be better. Which one would the members personally use?

Given a choice, I go with the Nosler Partition. I've only killed one lion--450 lbs--and it was a one shot kill [300 Win Mag] with the Nosler Partition. I can, however, cite a personal problem with a soft-nose bullet on lion. It was a long time ago in the Zambesi Valley. My friend and I were both using .375 H and H rifles. At the time--if I can recall rightly--I couldn't get my hands on .375 Nosler Partitions for reloading and commercial ammunition mounted with .375 Nosler Partitions wasn't then available. I tried to get Bitterroot bullets but, at that time, Bitterroot "batched" its bullets and had already sold its .375s from the last batch. A friend suggested that I reload an expensive bullet. I won't mention the manufacturer because when I later complained to them, they took great offense and implied that they might take legal action against me should I relate my story using their name.

Anyway, I purchased the bullets [280+ grains] and reloaded them hot. I also reloaded Hornady solids pushed by the same powder. The Hornadys performed as advertised--an instant kill on a head shot elephant; an instant kill on a buffalo and a one shot kill on a second Cape Buffalo. Now the soft-nose bullet was ENTIRELY a different matter. True, I killed a leopard, a bushbuck and a zebra with one bullet--through and throughs on the leopard and bushbuck. I didn't recover the bullet on the zebra. On the other hand, I shot an impala quartered on and the bullet exited the rump as multiple fragments. I shot a medium baboon [maybe 50 lbs] and my big 285 grain bullet never exited. I didn't autopsy my baboon which was a mistake.

One afternoon my friend, who is an excellent shot, decapitated a guinea fowl with his .375. The next morning he got a close shot at a lion but missed it by 3 feet. The lion ran off. We checked the rifle to discover that all of the glass had broken inside of his expensive scope on recoil--probably the shot at the guinea fowl. You could shake the rifle up and down and hear glass rattling. I had precisely the same thing happen to me--broken glass on recoil--with the same expensive scope while shooting at a brown bear in Siberia. I won't mention the manufacturer but everyone here is well familiar with it because its scopes are popular with American hunters and have impeccable reputations.

To make a long story short, my friend's rifle was belly up so I suggested that he use my rifle with MY RELOADS. The next morning he was fortunate enough to get a 100 yard shot at another lion. The lion went off dragging its foreleg. My friend thought he'd made a bad shot. Seven shots later by my friend and the PH the lion was dead. I personally did the autopsy. The expensive, 280 + grain bullet hit the lion precisely in the middle of the shoulder, breaking it. The bullet them shattered into hundreds of tiny fragments, none of which penetrated through to the chest cavity. During the chase, when the lion turned to face its pursuers, one of my bullets struck its forehead, penetrating .5 inch of bone and coming to rest, mushroomed, in the temporal muscles on the side of the head. The bullet had penetrated maybe 4 inches of tissue.

This is a cautionary tale for reloaders. The particular bullet that failed us during this trip MAY have performed perfectly well at average velocities. In my wisdom, however, I had loaded the rounds as hot as my .375 would tolerate and, in my opinion, this particular bullet couldn't withstand a couple of hundred extra fps of velocity. I never reloaded extra-hot ammo again. I go for middle velocities. I also never use this particular bullet. I've used a lot of Nosler Partitions and they've never failed me. The only complaint--and its a minor complaint--is that my Nosler partitions usually don't exit on medium sized game like kudu, gemsbok and waterbuck. I almost always find the bullet perfectly mushroomed under the far side skin. This means that the animal gets the full "benefit" of the bullet's power....but....it also means that there is no bleeding exit wound.

My last trip to SA that ended a few days ago, I used Barnes X "hollow points". I used them after personally contacting Barnes and talking to them about their definition of "hollow point". They told me that the bullets were designed to open on impact [4 "cloverleaves"] increasing the caliber and wound channel by a factor of 2. The bullet will not, however, come apart, retaining virtually 100% of mass. I loaded .338 Winchesters [210 grains] and .416 Weatherbys [400 grains] at medium velocities. We were supposed to [amongst other things] shoot buffalo and giraffe but never had an opportunity to hunt buffalo [another sad story] but did shoot the giraffe with the .416. The giraffe ran about 60 meters, stood there and dropped dead. The bullet hit the giraffe a little far back taking the rear of one lung. The liver was non-existent. It was unrecognizable mush. The bullet broke ribs and was under the far side skin--it had penetrated about 4.5 feet of muscle and bone and expanded exactly as advertised. I haven't weighed it yet but I suspect it has lost almost no mass.

My son also shot a zebra, kudu, waterbuck, red hartebeest, two bushbuck, a springbok and a black wildebeest with the .338 Win. In all cases the Barnes X hollow point shot through and through. The black wildebeest was hit at 400+ meters, directly through the shoulders and the bullet still shot completely through the animal. I AM impressed.

Presently solid bullets are unavailable for .338 [Obama/Holder]. Woodleigh, however, produces a bullet that slipped through the cracks. It is, I think, a solid brass or copper bullet and has a strange, machined-looking appearance. The tip is concave which Woodleigh believes enhances cavitation and penetration. The metal tip is capped with a rounded, blue plastic tip, apparently to improve ballistics. The plastic can easily be taken off and snapped back on the bullet. I loaded ten of these bullets as "back up" on the buffalo hunt that never happened. My PH was so fascinated that he asked to personally use my .338 for back up but it never happened. He did, however, shoot my son's downed waterbuck in the front of the chest so that the bullet might penetrate the length of the body. The bullet passed through the chest--heart/lungs, abdominal cavity and struck the lumbar spine. It ran the length of the lumbar and sacral spine--maybe 12 inches of bone--and was lost in the muscles of the rump. The bullet had penetrated at least 4 feet of tissue. I AM impressed.

 

[Velo Dog]

Given a choice, I go with the Nosler Partition. I've only killed one lion--450 lbs--and it was a one shot kill [300 Win Mag] with the Nosler Partition. I can, however, cite a personal problem with a soft-nose bullet on lion. It was a long time ago in the Zambesi Valley. My friend and I were both using .375 H and H rifles. At the time--if I can recall rightly--I couldn't get my hands on .375 Nosler Partitions for reloading and commercial ammunition mounted with .375 Nosler Partitions wasn't then available. I tried to get Bitterroot bullets but, at that time, Bitterroot "batched" its bullets and had already sold its .375s from the last batch. A friend suggested that I reload an expensive bullet. I won't mention the manufacturer because when I later complained to them, they took great offense and implied that they might take legal action against me should I relate my story using their name.

Anyway, I purchased the bullets [280+ grains] and reloaded them hot. I also reloaded Hornady solids pushed by the same powder. The Hornadys performed as advertised--an instant kill on a head shot elephant; an instant kill on a buffalo and a one shot kill on a second Cape Buffalo. Now the soft-nose bullet was ENTIRELY a different matter. True, I killed a leopard, a bushbuck and a zebra with one bullet--through and throughs on the leopard and bushbuck. I didn't recover the bullet on the zebra. On the other hand, I shot an impala quartered on and the bullet exited the rump as multiple fragments. I shot a medium baboon [maybe 50 lbs] and my big 285 grain bullet never exited. I didn't autopsy my baboon which was a mistake.

One afternoon my friend, who is an excellent shot, decapitated a guinea fowl with his .375. The next morning he got a close shot at a lion but missed it by 3 feet. The lion ran off. We checked the rifle to discover that all of the glass had broken inside of his expensive scope on recoil--probably the shot at the guinea fowl. You could shake the rifle up and down and hear glass rattling. I had precisely the same thing happen to me--broken glass on recoil--with the same expensive scope while shooting at a brown bear in Siberia. I won't mention the manufacturer but everyone here is well familiar with it because its scopes are popular with American hunters and have impeccable reputations.

To make a long story short, my friend's rifle was belly up so I suggested that he use my rifle with MY RELOADS. The next morning he was fortunate enough to get a 100 yard shot at another lion. The lion went off dragging its foreleg. My friend thought he'd made a bad shot. Seven shots later by my friend and the PH the lion was dead. I personally did the autopsy. The expensive, 280 + grain bullet hit the lion precisely in the middle of the shoulder, breaking it. The bullet them shattered into hundreds of tiny fragments, none of which penetrated through to the chest cavity. During the chase, when the lion turned to face its pursuers, one of my bullets struck its forehead, penetrating .5 inch of bone and coming to rest, mushroomed, in the temporal muscles on the side of the head. The bullet had penetrated maybe 4 inches of tissue.

This is a cautionary tale for reloaders. The particular bullet that failed us during this trip MAY have performed perfectly well at average velocities. In my wisdom, however, I had loaded the rounds as hot as my .375 would tolerate and, in my opinion, this particular bullet couldn't withstand a couple of hundred extra fps of velocity. I never reloaded extra-hot ammo again. I go for middle velocities. I also never use this particular bullet. I've used a lot of Nosler Partitions and they've never failed me. The only complaint--and its a minor complaint--is that my Nosler partitions usually don't exit on medium sized game like kudu, gemsbok and waterbuck. I almost always find the bullet perfectly mushroomed under the far side skin. This means that the animal gets the full "benefit" of the bullet's power....but....it also means that there is no bleeding exit wound.

My last trip to SA that ended a few days ago, I used Barnes X "hollow points". I used them after personally contacting Barnes and talking to them about their definition of "hollow point". They told me that the bullets were designed to open on impact [4 "cloverleaves"] increasing the caliber and wound channel by a factor of 2. The bullet will not, however, come apart, retaining virtually 100% of mass. I loaded .338 Winchesters [210 grains] and .416 Weatherbys [400 grains] at medium velocities. We were supposed to [amongst other things] shoot buffalo and giraffe but never had an opportunity to hunt buffalo [another sad story] but did shoot the giraffe with the .416. The giraffe ran about 60 meters, stood there and dropped dead. The bullet hit the giraffe a little far back taking the rear of one lung. The liver was non-existent. It was unrecognizable mush. The bullet broke ribs and was under the far side skin--it had penetrated about 4.5 feet of muscle and bone and expanded exactly as advertised. I haven't weighed it yet but I suspect it has lost almost no mass.

My son also shot a zebra, kudu, waterbuck, red hartebeest, two bushbuck, a springbok and a black wildebeest with the .338 Win. In all cases the Barnes X hollow point shot through and through. The black wildebeest was hit at 400+ meters, directly through the shoulders and the bullet still shot completely through the animal. I AM impressed.

Presently solid bullets are unavailable for .338 [Obama/Holder]. Woodleigh, however, produces a bullet that slipped through the cracks. It is, I think, a solid brass or copper bullet and has a strange, machined-looking appearance. The tip is concave which Woodleigh believes enhances cavitation and penetration. The metal tip is capped with a rounded, blue plastic tip, apparently to improve ballistics. The plastic can easily be taken off and snapped back on the bullet. I loaded ten of these bullets as "back up" on the buffalo hunt that never happened. My PH was so fascinated that he asked to personally use my .338 for back up but it never happened. He did, however, shoot my son's downed waterbuck in the front of the chest so that the bullet might penetrate the length of the body. The bullet passed through the chest--heart/lungs, abdominal cavity and struck the lumbar spine. It ran the length of the lumbar and sacral spine--maybe 12 inches of bone--and was lost in the muscles of the rump. The bullet had penetrated at least 4 feet of tissue. I AM impressed.

Hello Spoonieduck,

Your unpleasant experiences with hot loaded 285 gr (I'm whispering Speer Grand Slam but perhaps there is/was some other 285 gr soft out there? - NNTR) tends to support the idea that jacketed/lead core bullets have velocity limitations.
I do not care for "hot loads" in anything anymore but, there was a time when I did prefer them for almost all things in my rifles, handguns (and shotguns - especially for duck & goose pass shooting).
Now in my gray haired years, I prefer to use less velocity and more bullet for most of my needs here in Alaska and over in Africa, especially blunt heavy bullets, unless of course hunting in wide open terrain (American pronghorn, African springbok, etc).

Personally having experienced several failures to expand from hollow point bullets in both rifle and handgun, I am suspicious of them in general, no matter what material they are made from.
However, Barnes has an awesome reputation with many hunters and PHs, and so perhaps I will give them a go someday.
I did try the original X bullets in my .300 H&H (180 gr) but found them to be terribly inaccurate plus, they heavily streaked the bore with copper fouling.
I should think Barnes has improved things since then, because they have issued at least a couple new models of mono-metal expanding bullets.

It is worth mentioning that more than one PH I have spoken with about bullets and such do not care for the Barnes line of expanding TSX and TTSX bullets due to failures to expand a bit too often (any brand of bullet is going to fail now and then but, underline "a bit too often").
One PH in particular (Hannnes Swanepoel) said that if shooting into a mud caked animal with them at less than a flat-on angle, those will virtually always bend slightly at the tip, thereby closing the hole and causing nothing more than a military FMJ or ice pick type wound.
Somewhere in this forum a member posted some photos of such bullets that failed in exactly that manner, even without the mud factor.

But likewise, it is worth mentioning that Doctari505 who is a member of this forum, not to mention a celebrated author and extremely experienced PH / Wildlife Veterinarian - heartily endorses the exact bullets I am whimpering about.
I know better than to try to argue against anyone with that much experience because he definitely has "been there and done that", as opposed to my meager 4 safaris and about 85 head of big game combined here and Africa (my experiences in this arena are simply laughable compared to any PH, especially Doctari's).

Be that as it may, I watched one of my friends shoot a bull caribou with the original X bullet from his .30-06 and it failed to expand at all (just like I mentioned in my personal experiences with other brands and models of rifle and handgun hollow points, often enough to be called an annoying "pattern of failures").

As for lions and the .375 H&H, I have never shot or even seen a lion get shot but if I was to hunt one today with my .375 H&H (fine choice I'd say) ... with the PH's permission I would use my favorite "bushveld load" of 300 gr RNSP @ 2400 FPS.
I like the Hornady RNSP but I also like the Nosler Partition and a 300 gr partition at 2400 FPS seems to me like it'd be a decent lion getter.
It is a semi-spitzer but performs so well in my personal experiences that I over-look it's racy lines, lol. (a round nosed or flat nosed bullet is half expanded before it even leaves the rifle).

I have shot PG and N. Am. game with those two and even though I've not shot more than just targets with the Woodleigh 300 gr RNSP, it seems like it'd be a great one for my 2400 FPS load as well.
It duplicates the original Kynock flanged load for doubles and I am very sure many a lion has met his end from that load back in the day.
Today's Swift A-Frame in .375 is not a round nose but, in my estimation it would be a fine bullet for lion and African animals in general, of course elephant, rhino and body shots on hippo notwithstanding.
It surely is a popular one here for grizzly, moose and bison.

Well, I have rambled on a bit too much here and so, I will clam-up now (finally, whew !)

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[spoonieduck]

Hello Spoonieduck,

Your unpleasant experiences with hot loaded 285 gr (I'm whispering Speer Grand Slam but perhaps there is/was some other 285 gr soft out there? - NNTR) tends to support the idea that jacketed/lead core bullets have velocity limitations.
I do not care for "hot loads" in anything anymore but, there was a time when I did prefer them for almost all things in my rifles, handguns (and shotguns - especially for duck & goose pass shooting).
Now in my gray haired years, I prefer to use less velocity and more bullet for most of my needs here in Alaska and over in Africa, especially blunt heavy bullets, unless of course hunting in wide open terrain (American pronghorn, African springbok, etc).

Personally having experienced several failures to expand from hollow point bullets in both rifle and handgun, I am suspicious of them in general, no matter what material they are made from.
However, Barnes has an awesome reputation with many hunters and PHs, and so perhaps I will give them a go someday.
I did try the original X bullets in my .300 H&H (180 gr) but found them to be terribly inaccurate plus, they heavily streaked the bore with copper fouling.
I should think Barnes has improved things since then, because they have issued at least a couple new models of mono-metal expanding bullets.

It is worth mentioning that more than one PH I have spoken with about bullets and such do not care for the Barnes line of expanding TSX and TTSX bullets due to failures to expand a bit too often (any brand of bullet is going to fail now and then but, underline "a bit too often").
One PH in particular (Hannnes Swanepoel) said that if shooting into a mud caked animal with them at less than a flat-on angle, those will virtually always bend slightly at the tip, thereby closing the hole and causing nothing more than a military FMJ or ice pick type wound.
Somewhere in this forum a member posted some photos of such bullets that failed in exactly that manner, even without the mud factor.

But likewise, it is worth mentioning that Doctari505 who is a member of this forum, not to mention a celebrated author and extremely experienced PH / Wildlife Veterinarian - heartily endorses the exact bullets I am whimpering about.
I know better than to try to argue against anyone with that much experience because he definitely has "been there and done that", as opposed to my meager 4 safaris and about 85 head of big game combined here and Africa (my experiences in this arena are simply laughable compared to any PH, especially Doctari's).

Be that as it may, I watched one of my friends shoot a bull caribou with the original X bullet from his .30-06 and it failed to expand at all (just like I mentioned in my personal experiences with other brands and models of rifle and handgun hollow points, often enough to be called an annoying "pattern of failures").

As for lions and the .375 H&H, I have never shot or even seen a lion get shot but if I was to hunt one today with my .375 H&H (fine choice I'd say) ... with the PH's permission I would use my favorite "bushveld load" of 300 gr RNSP @ 2400 FPS.
I like the Hornady RNSP but I also like the Nosler Partition and a 300 gr partition at 2400 FPS seems to me like it'd be a decent lion getter.
It is a semi-spitzer but performs so well in my personal experiences that I over-look it's racy lines, lol. (a round nosed or flat nosed bullet is half expanded before it even leaves the rifle).

I have shot PG and N. Am. game with those two and even though I've not shot more than just targets with the Woodleigh 300 gr RNSP, it seems like it'd be a great one for my 2400 FPS load as well.
It duplicates the original Kynock flanged load for doubles and I am very sure many a lion has met his end from that load back in the day.
Today's Swift A-Frame in .375 is not a round nose but, in my estimation it would be a fine bullet for lion and African animals in general, of course elephant, rhino and body shots on hippo notwithstanding.
It surely is a popular one here for grizzly, moose and bison.

Well, I have rambled on a bit too much here and so, I will clam-up now (finally, whew !)

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Velo,

As I wrote, during this past trip, my son shot 8 animals with the .338 Winchester using Barnes X, 210 grain, hollowpoints traveling about 2,750 fps at the muzzle. The largest animals were zebra, kudu, waterbuck and black wildebeest. As stated, the black wildebeest was pinned through the center of both shoulders at 400 meters. All bullets shot completely through the animals so I couldn't recover them. The exit wounds were larger than the entrance wounds but none of the exit wounds were especially large and "torn up". Therefore, I can't state for absolute certain whether or not all of these bullets expanded. With the exception of a red hartebeest hit at 300 meters in which the bullet went a little low breaking one foreleg, passing thru the lower brisket and passing thru the muscle of the far side leg, a second shot wasn't required for any of these animals.

Before going on this trip I considered the Barnes X bullet because I have a son that uses them on whitetails. He shoots a .270 and fires [I think] 130 grain, factory-loaded ammunition. He's killed several whitetail bucks in the last three years with single shots. The Barnes bullet "stuck" in a couple of them. Both bullets were perfectly "clover leafed". I weighed both of them and they lost zero mass.

Before this trip, I personally never used Barnes, though, and was worried about the concept of a "hollow point". To me hollowpoints are designed to expand radically, oftentimes blowing up explosively on impact and are quite appropriate for small animals like prairie dogs but not for larger animals. Therefore I spoke directly to a knowledgeable Barnes representative before reloading the Barnes X hollowpoint. He told me that the bullet [which has a deep pit at the tip] is designed to expand radically ON THE SKIN but holds together for deep penetration, losing almost no mass i.e. the bullet has the qualities of a hollowpoint plus the qualities of a "solid". OK, my son used it this last trip and it seemed to perform perfectly but, as I wrote, all of the bullets fired completely through the animals so I have no bullets to look at.

But....I met a fellow over there who had shot an eland the previous day with his .338 Win using the same Barnes hollow point albeit in 250 grains. He proudly showed me the bullet that was dug out of the eland. The bullet had mushroomed perfectly. My son also used my reloaded Barnes X hollowpoint in my .416 Weatherby magnum to kill a large giraffe. The bullet is 400 grains and is traveling about 2,500 fps at the muzzle. The animal was standing in tall cover about 100 yards away. In this case I recovered the bullet. The bullet struck the giraffe a little far back taking the posterior of one lung. The liver was unrecognizable mush. The bullet passed through the top of the rumen containing undigested grass and leaves [like shooting thru a well-packed hay bale]. The bullet broke ribs on both sides and ended up under the thick hide on the far side. The bullet was perfectly mushroomed. I weighed the bullet last night and it weighs 399 grains. The bullet retained 99.75% of its mass after traveling thru about 4.5 feet of skin, muscle, bone and "hay bale".

Oh, a somewhat unrelated subject. The Barnes rep was a highly experienced reloader. I related my sad tale of a reloading accident I had years ago while studying the Kennedy assassination. The rifle was a 6.5 mm Carcano and I'd done considerable work with it--rate of fire, accuracy, penetration, head deflection, bullet deformation etc. I was doing some "clean up" work and downloaded a batch of 5 rounds to simulate, at the muzzle, the velocity that the bullet was going at when it struck Kennedy's head at--if I can recall rightly--157 feet [maybe it was yards. It's been a long time.] Anyway, the first round blew up in the rifle, fragging my face.

I asked the Barnes rep about it. He told me something I considered but never heard of before. He told me that it is far more dangerous to underload a cartridge than to overload it. Overloading seldom produces more than a sticky or stuck bolt. Underloading can blow a gun apart [especially a weak one like the Carcano]. He explained it like this. If the cartridge is underloaded, the cartridge is not packed with powder. If the round is packed with powder as per usual, the primer spark ignites the nearest powder which then burns thru the column of powder relatively slowly. Significantly underload a cartridge, however, and place the rifle to your shoulder so that the cartridge is now positioned horizontally. The powder is now distributed horizontally with an air space at the top above the length of the powder column. The primer ignites and the spark instantly travels through the entire airspace igniting ALL of the powder at the same time. Pressure mounts exponentially, the cartridge case explodes and the rifle may explode along with it. Interesting.

 

[enysse]

Spoonieduck, that is great explanation of why you don't want an airspace in a bullet. The same thing happens in muzzleloading if you dump powder down and don't pack the bullet tight to the powder.

 

[Velo Dog]

Velo,

As I wrote, during this past trip, my son shot 8 animals with the .338 Winchester using Barnes X, 210 grain, hollowpoints traveling about 2,750 fps at the muzzle. The largest animals were zebra, kudu, waterbuck and black wildebeest. As stated, the black wildebeest was pinned through the center of both shoulders at 400 meters. All bullets shot completely through the animals so I couldn't recover them. The exit wounds were larger than the entrance wounds but none of the exit wounds were especially large and "torn up". Therefore, I can't state for absolute certain whether or not all of these bullets expanded. With the exception of a red hartebeest hit at 300 meters in which the bullet went a little low breaking one foreleg, passing thru the lower brisket and passing thru the muscle of the far side leg, a second shot wasn't required for any of these animals.

Before going on this trip I considered the Barnes X bullet because I have a son that uses them on whitetails. He shoots a .270 and fires [I think] 130 grain, factory-loaded ammunition. He's killed several whitetail bucks in the last three years with single shots. The Barnes bullet "stuck" in a couple of them. Both bullets were perfectly "clover leafed". I weighed both of them and they lost zero mass.

Before this trip, I personally never used Barnes, though, and was worried about the concept of a "hollow point". To me hollowpoints are designed to expand radically, oftentimes blowing up explosively on impact and are quite appropriate for small animals like prairie dogs but not for larger animals. Therefore I spoke directly to a knowledgeable Barnes representative before reloading the Barnes X hollowpoint. He told me that the bullet [which has a deep pit at the tip] is designed to expand radically ON THE SKIN but holds together for deep penetration, losing almost no mass i.e. the bullet has the qualities of a hollowpoint plus the qualities of a "solid". OK, my son used it this last trip and it seemed to perform perfectly but, as I wrote, all of the bullets fired completely through the animals so I have no bullets to look at.

But....I met a fellow over there who had shot an eland the previous day with his .338 Win using the same Barnes hollow point albeit in 250 grains. He proudly showed me the bullet that was dug out of the eland. The bullet had mushroomed perfectly. My son also used my reloaded Barnes X hollowpoint in my .416 Weatherby magnum to kill a large giraffe. The bullet is 400 grains and is traveling about 2,500 fps at the muzzle. The animal was standing in tall cover about 100 yards away. In this case I recovered the bullet. The bullet struck the giraffe a little far back taking the posterior of one lung. The liver was unrecognizable mush. The bullet passed through the top of the rumen containing undigested grass and leaves [like shooting thru a well-packed hay bale]. The bullet broke ribs on both sides and ended up under the thick hide on the far side. The bullet was perfectly mushroomed. I weighed the bullet last night and it weighs 399 grains. The bullet retained 99.75% of its mass after traveling thru about 4.5 feet of skin, muscle, bone and "hay bale".

Oh, a somewhat unrelated subject. The Barnes rep was a highly experienced reloader. I related my sad tale of a reloading accident I had years ago while studying the Kennedy assassination. The rifle was a 6.5 mm Carcano and I'd done considerable work with it--rate of fire, accuracy, penetration, head deflection, bullet deformation etc. I was doing some "clean up" work and downloaded a batch of 5 rounds to simulate, at the muzzle, the velocity that the bullet was going at when it struck Kennedy's head at--if I can recall rightly--157 feet [maybe it was yards. It's been a long time.] Anyway, the first round blew up in the rifle, fragging my face.

I asked the Barnes rep about it. He told me something I considered but never heard of before. He told me that it is far more dangerous to underload a cartridge than to overload it. Overloading seldom produces more than a sticky or stuck bolt. Underloading can blow a gun apart [especially a weak one like the Carcano]. He explained it like this. If the cartridge is underloaded, the cartridge is not packed with powder. If the round is packed with powder as per usual, the primer spark ignites the nearest powder which then burns thru the column of powder relatively slowly. Significantly underload a cartridge, however, and place the rifle to your shoulder so that the cartridge is now positioned horizontally. The powder is now distributed horizontally with an air space at the top above the length of the powder column. The primer ignites and the spark instantly travels through the entire airspace igniting ALL of the powder at the same time. Pressure mounts exponentially, the cartridge case explodes and the rifle may explode along with it. Interesting.

Spooniduck,

Your experiences with Barnes-X bullets bears out the notion that since they are a fairly hard material, they should be used at high velocity to better encourage deformation on impact.

The one I saw zip through the caribou (.30-06 180 gr) with a tiny exit hole and the animal not recovered until the next day, was likely the result of too low an impact velocity.

My hunting partner should've used 150 grainers in that caliber.

He liked the 180s because of the grumpy bears around here.

I like the .375 H&H because of same, lol.

Yes, the exploding under-load is not all that rare.

I had seen it happen in .38 Special revolver "loaded down" with a small charge of Bullseye or Red Dot pistol powder in a fellow plinkers hands (I think it was Bullseye but not positive anymore - 40 some+ years later).

Nobody was hurt but it surely was an attention getter and topic of much conversation for awhile.

For reduced loads, one must always use a filler of some sort to keep powder against the primer, even if you aim down hill at something.

The old British "stick powder" - Cordite / Axite / etc. was more voluminous that our powders today so, most nitro-smokeless large double rifle cartridges require fillers or spacers.

Otherwise you get these very exciting "elephant gun hang fires".

The rifle in my avatar (.450 No2 Nitro 3.5") worked perfectly with a foam ear plug over the powder.

I use a spacer in my .416 Rigby as well when loading it to .404 Jeffery ballistics.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[spoonieduck]

I went to the old battlefield at Chancellorsville, Virginia. The guide showed us a recovered Confederate Enfield rifle that had blown open several inches in front of the breech. The guide attributed this to Confederate poverty and the poor quality of steel in Confederate weapons. Be that as it may, I doubt that is the explanation for the blown weapon. Imagine yourself in a killing battle with a single shot muzzleloader. The enemy is immediately in front of you shooting and perhaps charging your position. You are quite appropriately terrified and working as quickly as possible to load and shoot your rifle. Undoubtedly, many soldiers in this kind of situation failed to tamp the bullet all the way down to the powder, leaving airspaces that blew weapons apart.

 

[Velo Dog]

I went to the old battlefield at Chancellorsville, Virginia. The guide showed us a recovered Confederate Enfield rifle that had blown open several inches in front of the breech. The guide attributed this to Confederate poverty and the poor quality of steel in Confederate weapons. Be that as it may, I doubt that is the explanation for the blown weapon. Imagine yourself in a killing battle with a single shot muzzleloader. The enemy is immediately in front of you shooting and perhaps charging your position. You are quite appropriately terrified and working as quickly as possible to load and shoot your rifle. Undoubtedly, many soldiers in this kind of situation failed to tamp the bullet all the way down to the powder, leaving airspaces that blew weapons apart.

Spoonieduck,

I agree with you.
That rifle likely failed due to improper loading (too much air space between powder and bullet) under stress of combat.
As far as I know, Enfield has never used inferior steel in anything they made, including rifles for export to the Confederate States, during The US Civil War.

So as not to rip off this thread any further than I already have, I expect the .577 Enfield of the 1860s, when loaded with a conical bullet (hollow base "Minie Ball") would do a lion, out to the first 50 yds/mtrs or so.

Out,
Velo Dog

 

[spoonieduck]

Spoonieduck,

I agree with you.
That rifle likely failed due to improper loading (too much air space between powder and bullet) under stress of combat.
As far as I know, Enfield has never used inferior steel in anything they made, including rifles for export to the Confederate States, during The US Civil War.

So as not to rip off this thread any further than I already have, I expect the .577 Enfield of the 1860s, when loaded with a conical bullet (hollow base "Minie Ball") would do a lion, out to the first 50 yds/mtrs or so.

Out,
Velo Dog

Velo,

How heavy is the bullet and what is the muzzle velocity? I suspect the .577 will work fine but, ideally, I'd hit him behind the shoulder avoiding big bones except, possibly, far side humerus/scapula. I believe the conicals are pure lead and mushroom quickly which might limit penetration depth.

On the other hand, I have a reproduction Whitworth rifle in .45 caliber. It fires a long, pure lead hexagonal 525 grain slug pushed by 90 grains of black powder. Try as I might, I haven't been able to get the muzzle velocity at much over 1,000 fps. I've only shot one animal with it, a whitetail buck quartered on to me at 80 yards. The bullet struck the front quarter, shot clean through the animal lengthwise exiting his rump. Therefore, deep penetration can be achieved with a pure lead slug. A lion, however, can potentially weigh in at 500 lbs, maybe more, and has a bone structure more substantial than the largest whitetail. Again, I would avoid hitting a large humerus or scapula bone on the entrance side.

Pure lead and low velocities can have interesting effects. I have a .72 caliber dueling pistol that fires round balls. I don't know the muzzle velocity but have no doubt that it is low--maybe 400-500 fps. One time I fired at a stump 40 feet away. The slug bounced right back at me hitting me exactly in the middle of my chest. It knocked my wind out but didn't penetrate. I don't think I'll use my dueling piece to shoot lions.

 

[Velo Dog]

Velo,

How heavy is the bullet and what is the muzzle velocity? I suspect the .577 will work fine but, ideally, I'd hit him behind the shoulder avoiding big bones except, possibly, far side humerus/scapula. I believe the conicals are pure lead and mushroom quickly which might limit penetration depth.

On the other hand, I have a reproduction Whitworth rifle in .45 caliber. It fires a long, pure lead hexagonal 525 grain slug pushed by 90 grains of black powder. Try as I might, I haven't been able to get the muzzle velocity at much over 1,000 fps. I've only shot one animal with it, a whitetail buck quartered on to me at 80 yards. The bullet struck the front quarter, shot clean through the animal lengthwise exiting his rump. Therefore, deep penetration can be achieved with a pure lead slug. A lion, however, can potentially weigh in at 500 lbs, maybe more, and has a bone structure more substantial than the largest whitetail. Again, I would avoid hitting a large humerus or scapula bone on the entrance side.

Pure lead and low velocities can have interesting effects. I have a .72 caliber dueling pistol that fires round balls. I don't know the muzzle velocity but have no doubt that it is low--maybe 400-500 fps. One time I fired at a stump 40 feet away. The slug bounced right back at me hitting me exactly in the middle of my chest. It knocked my wind out but didn't penetrate. I don't think I'll use my dueling piece to shoot lions.

I don't know.

 

[Geoclarkclark]

I got into a bit of a debate with a fellow Army Cadet Force Skill at Arms Instructor over bullet choice for hunting African Lion, we both agree that the calibres used would be between .375 HandH Magnum - .450 Rigby but it is the bullet choice, he says a Solid Flat nose would be best where as I said that a Nosler Partition Bullet would be better. Which one would the members personally use?

Of the two, I would definitely choose the Nosler Partition.
I recently took a Lion with my .375 Ruger, and a 250 gr. Barnes TTSX bullet. It did a lot of internal damage, and no bullet exit. MV is 2880 fps, and this bullet obviously expands quickly.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Velo Dog and Red Leg, this is a very good discussion.
Witold

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

I think 404Jeffery and cartridges from Hornady with bullet DGX 26g/400gr would be good.