Solid bullets for Buffalo? Yes or No?

[Sideshow]

I listened to this just yesterday day while working actually twice.
Really good. For those that don’t know this is the guy that wrote the books “The Perfect Shot”
Anyway this is well worth it. Interesting for me. My solids will be North Fork cup After listening to this. NF softs to start. More practice got to get my times down. Looking at 3 secs for reload and back on target.
Here is the link for those here that do not have spotterfy

Interesting on what he says about the Barnes 350 bullet for 375.

 

[Sideshow]

Hope that link works better. Sorry if a safety one came up first I’m having a fight with my iPad I’m winning the battles but it’s winning the war

 

[Philip Glass]

Hi, in order to not bring a mix of bullets during the stalk, what are your thoughts about using only solids for buffalo? I am talking for 375HH Mag or bigger, for example .470NE (which is already a much larger caliber).

My impression is that when stalking, is best to bring the least amount of options and gadgets (8-10 rounds + knife + binos + water + phone) . When action starts, the least things to get mixed with, the better.
I read some people is even shooting an express rifle with one bullet of each and making the decision on the go. This is probably the oposite of what I would do because is too much thinking on that precise moment.
This includes leaving at the car the backpack with all the bells and whistles (AKA hunting toys).

With Barnes TSX in mind as a top bullet for Buffalo solids have no place on a buffalo hunt. I don't know why this ancient philosophy continues to this day but it does. The theory is that a "soft" will not penetrate past the rumen on a buffalo running away. This is simply not the case with the TSX. What a solid will do is run through one buffalo and then hit another.
After my experiences a solid is for elephant brain shots and the occasional tiny And little else.
I nearly lost my rhino although he was perfectly hit with a .470 solid. He was quartering towards me and I took the shot, The bullet went through his shoulder, traversed the lungs and exited on the hip. He ran over a mile.
My hippo last year was TSX then solid as instructed. First shot excellent on the shoulder second shot in the neck running away. The neck shot penciled through.
A film that reinforces my opinion of not using solids for buffalo is Death by Double rifle. They pound buffalo after buffalo with two shooters using big bore doubles with solids obviously. The buffalo are shot over and over with little effect until finally succumbing to the many little holes poked in them.
Regards,
Philip

 

[grand veneur]

With Barnes TSX in mind as a top bullet for Buffalo solids have no place on a buffalo hunt. I don't know why this ancient philosophy continues to this day but it does. The theory is that a "soft" will not penetrate past the rumen on a buffalo running away. This is simply not the case with the TSX. What a solid will do is run through one buffalo and then hit another.
After my experiences a solid is for elephant brain shots and the occasional tiny And little else.
I nearly lost my rhino although he was perfectly hit with a .470 solid. He was quartering towards me and I took the shot, The bullet went through his shoulder, traversed the lungs and exited on the hip. He ran over a mile.
My hippo last year was TSX then solid as instructed. First shot excellent on the shoulder second shot in the neck running away. The neck shot penciled through.
A film that reinforces my opinion of not using solids for buffalo is Death by Double rifle. They pound buffalo after buffalo with two shooters using big bore doubles with solids obviously. The buffalo are shot over and over with little effect until finally succumbing to the many little holes poked in them.
Regards,
Philip

I have had more than one buffalo that fall over after the first shot with a solid. Is in my opinion most likely due to the age of the hunter and his ancient philosophy. Africa is a continent where witchcraft is still effective. I also went sometime to the village wizard when the hunt was not going so well. At times it seems to have helped. It's not for nothing that I wear this Dan mask in my avatar. That protects me from some comments.

 

[ndumo HUNTING SAFARIS]

Solid bullets on buffalo is a relic of yesteryear, as the bullets of the time was unreliable.
I prefer a premium soft/ expanding bullet ONLY in a client's rifle, like Barnes TSX, North Fork, Bearclaw, Swift A-Frame, Rhino solid shank or similar bullets. If you really must, take one or two solids with to spine a downed buffalo. That's about the only use I can recommend a solid bullet for on a buffalo, and that's only to save some meat. As you are not after the meat, why bother?

 

[Philip Glass]

Solid bullets on buffalo is a relic of yesteryear, as the bullets of the time was unreliable.
I prefer a premium soft/ expanding bullet ONLY in a client's rifle, like Barnes TSX, North Fork, Bearclaw, Swift A-Frame, Rhino solid shank or similar bullets. If you really must, take one or two solids with to spine a downed buffalo. That's about the only use I can recommend a solid bullet for on a buffalo, and that's only to save some meat. As you are not after the meat, why bother?

Thank you Karl for sharing your professional experience with us!

 

[michael458]

Solid bullets on buffalo is a relic of yesteryear,

Oh I am so proud to be a Relic............ Count me as such, all day and then some........

he theory is that a "soft" will not penetrate past the rumen on a buffalo running away. This is simply not the case with the TSX. What a solid will do is run through one buffalo and then hit another.

So the great experts say, the Barnes TSX has enough penetration to go from the rear end of a buffalo, to vitals, but it won't exit to hit another buffalo, say broadside? Wow, that must be a magic, dial up the amount of penetration needed for each shot sort of bullet.

Tell me this, just how many buffalo have you taken with rear end shots with various Barnes TSX to say this with confidence? Please provide proof of this as well, sorry, I won't just take your word for it, I am a Show me sort of chap. You don't mention caliber, or weight of bullet, velocity, no details here? Yes, I think I would like to know more, I want to know how many of these shots you have taken personally, and I would like to know how many you have witnessed as well........... and more details would help.

I nearly lost my rhino although he was perfectly hit with a .470 solid. He was quartering towards me and I took the shot, The bullet went through his shoulder, traversed the lungs and exited on the hip. He ran over a mile.

You do know and understand all solids are not created equal....... Based on the very sparse, broadly general information given, perhaps this was some sort of round nose solid.......I contend had you spent more time learning about properly designed solids the outcome might have been vastly different, saved you some mileage....... A properly designed Flat Nose Solid just might have provided different results........ Of course, we have no details on this incident........ If all your experience is with Round Nose solids, I can see where you might develop some prejudices, as stated, all Solids are not created equal...........

A film that reinforces my opinion of not using solids for buffalo is Death by Double rifle.

Yes, I thought as much...............
As I said earlier........... SSDD........... I think to change it to SSSDD...... Same Stupid S$$T Different Day...........

I prefer a premium soft/ expanding bullet ONLY in a client's rifle,

Karl, as I discussed earlier in this thread, I don't disagree with this comment, as we know the quality of SOME clients, many are not shooters, many have little experience with such matters, and best to limit those sorts. Its evident shooters know much more about their rifle, ammo, and the most important part of the equation, the bullet, all Solids are not created equal, and we know that most of these "clients" will rely on you to take the second shot, after they have taken the first.

The Clients, read a book, watch a youtube movie, read Stupid S**T on a forum from another chap who read a book or watched a youtube, and suddenly become experts on the matter............. Yeah, I think I would limit that sort as well.........

Oh Yes, I wear the Patch of Relic with Pride, thank you...........

 

[Philip Glass]

Oh I am so proud to be a Relic............ Count me as such, all day and then some........


So the great experts say, the Barnes TSX has enough penetration to go from the rear end of a buffalo, to vitals, but it won't exit to hit another buffalo, say broadside? Wow, that must be a magic, dial up the amount of penetration needed for each shot sort of bullet.

Tell me this, just how many buffalo have you taken with rear end shots with various Barnes TSX to say this with confidence? Please provide proof of this as well, sorry, I won't just take your word for it, I am a Show me sort of chap. You don't mention caliber, or weight of bullet, velocity, no details here? Yes, I think I would like to know more, I want to know how many of these shots you have taken personally, and I would like to know how many you have witnessed as well........... and more details would help.


You do know and understand all solids are not created equal....... Based on the very sparse, broadly general information given, perhaps this was some sort of round nose solid.......I contend had you spent more time learning about properly designed solids the outcome might have been vastly different, saved you some mileage....... A properly designed Flat Nose Solid just might have provided different results........ Of course, we have no details on this incident........ If all your experience is with Round Nose solids, I can see where you might develop some prejudices, as stated, all Solids are not created equal...........

Yes, I thought as much...............
As I said earlier........... SSDD........... I think to change it to SSSDD...... Same Stupid S$$T Different Day...........

Karl, as I discussed earlier in this thread, I don't disagree with this comment, as we know the quality of SOME clients, many are not shooters, many have little experience with such matters, and best to limit those sorts. Its evident shooters know much more about their rifle, ammo, and the most important part of the equation, the bullet, all Solids are not created equal, and we know that most of these "clients" will rely on you to take the second shot, after they have taken the first.

The Clients, read a book, watch a youtube movie, read Stupid S**T on a forum from another chap who read a book or watched a youtube, and suddenly become experts on the matter............. Yeah, I think I would limit that sort as well.........

Oh Yes, I wear the Patch of Relic with Pride, thank you...........

You seem to be the expert. Carry on.

 

[michael458]

You seem to be the expert. Carry on.

Indeed, one can start by going back to page one of this thread................

And then there are many topics, threads right here that Solids have been discussed in detail........ including properly designed solids, the 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Penetration, various calibers, bullet designs, actual penetration tests not only on the range, but in the field, and much much more.......You do understand the 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Performance?

Take some time away from your Youtube posts and searches for movies, you might learn something........... Still waiting on all your experiences with Barnes TSX, or any other premium Soft, that will penetrate to the vitals with South end shots at a North Bound Buffalo........ That is a lot of bullet stopping test medium to get through, I find that hard to believe, especially after actual inspection of such...........

Oh, and when you hit buffalo with a properly designed Flat Nose Solid, this is what Exits and entrances both look like......... A Nice Size Cutout, that does not and cannot close back...... A Round Nose Solid tends to simply push through, and close up afterwards, including internals.............

THey also make pretty big holes in head shots as well...........Flat Nose Solids mind you..... these happened to exit the ass end BTW.........

This is what an elephants heart looks like when a .500 caliber CEB FN solid hits it at 2400 fps, from extremely close range around 6 feet............

You do understand that once you open the dance with buffalo, it is your responsibility to finish it? So tell me how you expect to finish it if you do not have the proper tools to complete the job? Will your expanding premium bust through brush, trees, limbs other obstacles to get that second or third shot? I think not. You do plan on a second shot, right? Or, you just going to stand and watch what happens after shot # 1 and let your PH worry with the rest? Only a good properly designed solid can solve your problems, AFTER that first shot with a good premium soft, or extreme trauma inflicting bullet such as a Raptor or Generation 1 CNC, Hammer/Maximus, you do know what those are?

Yeah, I think, SSSDD..........................

 

[IvW]

Where do you aim at the backend of a running away buffalo to reach the vitals if the first broadside shot did not go where intended?

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

A solid can be used for buffalo but in 95% of cases or maybe more than 95%, most likely unnecessary. There is always going to be some instances where a mistake was made or something went wrong and the first shot didn't hit the mark and then you have a buffalo running away from you and having a solid to reach the vitals (if you are on the right angle) would be advantageous but outside of that scenario, premium softs are a much better choice. Also even a premium soft on a departing buffalo from the right calibre will smash the hip on even the biggest of buffalo. Each to their own, but I would never consider solids on buffalo as my choice unless I had absolutely no other option.

This has probably already been said 50 times in this thread but I see the thread keep popping up so it eventually got the better of me to add a comment haha

 

[michael458]

Perhaps I simply came from a totally different background, based in other areas of shooting that causes me to view things differently than that of the typical hunter......? I came from a background of shooting, and in the early years the training was not for hunting, but other fields of study. Here we learned to plan for the "Worst Case" scenario and not the best case. We also learned that when the shooting starts, you finish the mission, you never stop shooting, until the problem is Solved, and even solved, you pay the insurance. Or, you no longer have a shot, or you are out of ammo. Furthermore, you made sure you have the right tools to accomplish the "Worst Case" scenario, not the best case.

While I do not NORMALLY recommend starting the dance with a Proper Designed Solid, there are those times that is exactly what might be required to accomplish your goals. Normally, if you are using a reasonable buffalo cartridge, one will always begin with the 1st round a Trauma Inflicting bullet, whether a Premium Expanding, or the more extreme Raptors or 1st Generation CNC Copper bullets. Then, for everything thereafter, there is not much of chance of the "Perfect Shot" any longer. If your problem is not solved, then the perfect shot no longer exists. The best tool to solve the problem is a bullet that is less likely to deflect if hitting brush or trees between you and your problem, this is not a soft, or extreme trauma inflicting bullet, this will be a properly designed Flat Nose Solid. You may face a easy straight away shot up the rear end, this is one scenario, you won't have time to be very precise, so one shoots for the largest area, dead in the middle, and go again if needed. You won't have the time to decide on exact placement, the goal is to get another one in, and start to slow the process down, to a more controllable solution. You will need a bullet that can penetrate deep and straight from any angle, rear, angled, through brush and even trees....... no Premium Soft/expanding or even the mighty Raptors or Gen 1 will be able to cover all these scenarios that you might or might not be faced with, I contend to plan for the Worst Case, not the best case.......

Where do you shoot a North Bound animal....... straight away, time is against you, precision is a luxury you do not have, in these cases you shoot for the largest target available, right up the middle. Or that is what I would do, and have done. At this point your first shot has caused everything to go all to crap, all bets are off now, you can stand and watch, or you can solve the problem.

Above I said "Normally" recommend Soft/Expanding Or extreme Trauma bullets first and followed by solids.......... But that is NOT always 100% the case. There are those, and I have been there and done it, that have taken rifles and cartridges that are not what would seem Buffalo Normal....... I have hunted and taken buffalo with Lever guns in past years, both 45/70 and my own larger caliber 50 B&M Alaskan, and with great success. For the most part anyway, in early years with 45/70 I had to use "Less than Desirable" bullets, simply because at that time there was nothing else available. This was a time before proper designed bullets capable of buffalo were designed for the cartridge, and I had not originally taken the little Guide gun for buffalo to begin with, the PH wanted us to do it, so hell, why not. In the end we had success, but we also had some short comings with our bullets, being a cast bullet at the time. Later in the larger caliber 50 B&M Alaskan, we had proper designed bullets, I had made sure of that, from lessons learned in years gone by. Whether you agree, concur, or not with lever guns and cartridges for buffalo is a moot point, and another subject that has been discussed and argued for years, and not what we are doing here, hell we are having hard enough time with the subject at hand, much less to introduce another factor. I am of the opinion that I rather have a big flat nose proper designed solid, if going to the field with a cartridge that is or can be considered on the edge for buffalo. So in this scenario, I would go totally with a Solid, first second and foremost. To ensure penetration from any angle presented, and being Flat Nose, hit hard enough to get the job done as well............ Handgunners have relied on this for years on top of years, and have been successful in their endeavors, rifle shooters could take some lessons from the HandGun crowd in this instance.....

A couple of years ago A friend, of my friend, was hell bent to take his Marlin Guide gun in 45/70 to Africa for buffalo. There was no talking him out of it, or getting him to do something different. My friend asked me to assist and load some ammo for him. Problem is, he really was not a shooter. I had several scenarios I could work with, I was thinking about the 350 North Fork Expanding CPS, backed up with either 325 #13 CEB Lever Solids, or possibly 370 Raptors and 400 Lever Solids.... but the problem is, he was across the country, so I could not just take him shooting and teach him what was what. I also did not have the rifle, to be able to set it up. I also did not have confidence that he might make the right choices in the field? So I had a lot of questions....... In the end, I decided to keep it as simple as possible....... 400 gr Lever Solids CEB,at 1850 fps....... nothing more. He went buffalo hunting and was rewarded with success...... I am friends with the PH, he sent photos, and report........ shot was about 30 yards, dead straight through the heart, buffalo ran 25-30 yards and fell over stone cold dead.......... So much for Solids not being able to do the job, so much for just Penciling through and running miles........... So much for the so called experts......

Later I employed the same Solid Bullet tech with my own 50 B&M Alaskan, shooting a 405 gr .500 caliber CEB Lever Solid at 2120 fps hammering buffalo with second shots, 1st shot was a 365 Raptor, but the 405 Solids ended the battle, and a hippo as well with nothing but the Solids....... Oh these big Flat Nose Solids penciled through alright, and while they were penciling a .500 caliber hole, that looked like a big wadcutter, they destroyed everything in between, bone, flesh, tissues, vessels, everything..........

There are scenarios where the Solids should be #1 and all thereafter....... Not normal circumstances, I don't recommend that if you are using a cartridge such as 458 Winchester, or other proper Buffalo Cartridges.........

I mentioned trees and limbs and brush....... and since we just discussed Lever guns.......After hitting perhaps the greatest warrior buffalo ever with a 365 Lever Raptor at 2200 fps behind the shoulder through both lungs, he took off running, from left to right, my second shot was the 405 Lever Solid at 2120 fps and I am not a good running shot, I saw the bullet hit him square in the guts, he kept on going and stopped behind a bunch of brush, could only see a small part of him, not enough for a 3rd shot, while watching this, loading two more solids in the gun to top it off........ the battle ended when later he cleared the brush and we went to it, finally he gave it up. That second shot hit a 3 inch diamter tree that was in between me and the buffalo, I did not see it of course, I was concentrating on hitting that running buffalo....... The tree was 10 yards in front of me, it hit square on, then went straight to that buffalo 25 yards or so behind this tree, it was on video taken from behind me, you could actually see the bullet leave the tree and streak straight to the buffalo, and by the way, it also exited the far side.......

On another occasion I was with my Son hunting in Zimbabwe, I was using a Winchester M70 500 B&M, shooting a 450 .500 caliber CEB Solid at 2400 fps and its matching 410 Raptor at 2500 fps, I shot a cow buffalo dead on point of the shoulder at 50 yards with the Raptor, The buffalo simply turned around and was now looking at (What I thought I was seeing) broadside shoulder right side to me....... I fired a 450 CEB Solid dead at the shoulder, buffalo goes down, end of story......... Then "THEY" including my Son, pointed out I had shot through a tree? I turned around, and sure enough, I had shot through this tree, a rather large tree at that, inspection showed the solid exited the Tree, hit buffalo square on the shoulder, exited far side shoulder as well....... Don't ask me because I will never know, I never saw the tree.......... no, I don't know how that is possible.

So, tell me experts, how does your expanding Premiums do in these scenarios? If you can't, I can......

There is no telling, no planning, what sort of scenario you will have once that first shot is taken. Me, I am going to plan on Worst Case........... You can choose yourself what you would rather do and best of luck for you regardless what you choose.........

 

[Philip Glass]

Indeed, one can start by going back to page one of this thread................

And then there are many topics, threads right here that Solids have been discussed in detail........ including properly designed solids, the 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Penetration, various calibers, bullet designs, actual penetration tests not only on the range, but in the field, and much much more.......You do understand the 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Performance?

Take some time away from your Youtube posts and searches for movies, you might learn something........... Still waiting on all your experiences with Barnes TSX, or any other premium Soft, that will penetrate to the vitals with South end shots at a North Bound Buffalo........ That is a lot of bullet stopping test medium to get through, I find that hard to believe, especially after actual inspection of such...........

View attachment 614260

Oh, and when you hit buffalo with a properly designed Flat Nose Solid, this is what Exits and entrances both look like......... A Nice Size Cutout, that does not and cannot close back...... A Round Nose Solid tends to simply push through, and close up afterwards, including internals.............

View attachment 614258


THey also make pretty big holes in head shots as well...........Flat Nose Solids mind you..... these happened to exit the ass end BTW.........

View attachment 614257

This is what an elephants heart looks like when a .500 caliber CEB FN solid hits it at 2400 fps, from extremely close range around 6 feet............

View attachment 614259


You do understand that once you open the dance with buffalo, it is your responsibility to finish it? So tell me how you expect to finish it if you do not have the proper tools to complete the job? Will your expanding premium bust through brush, trees, limbs other obstacles to get that second or third shot? I think not. You do plan on a second shot, right? Or, you just going to stand and watch what happens after shot # 1 and let your PH worry with the rest? Only a good properly designed solid can solve your problems, AFTER that first shot with a good premium soft, or extreme trauma inflicting bullet such as a Raptor or Generation 1 CNC, Hammer/Maximus, you do know what those are?

Yeah, I think, SSSDD..........................

I have likely killed more total animals than most anyone on this site. I've lived on a ranch and have been killing animals my entire life. All kinds of animals from a very young age. I guide many hunters myself here in Texas. In recent years I have truly fallen in love with the performance of the Barnes TSX. I have hunted extensively with it in 5.56, 7mm Mag, .300Win, .375, .416, .450/400, and .470. With my experiences over the years I have formed opinions on what works best for me. I had so much confidence in the little 5.56 that I took my largest whitetail to date with it.
To answer one of your questions, I have not used a round nose solid. Lately it was the Barnes flat nosed solid. That bullet went through an ele shoulder, stomach, entire back leg and nearly exited!
To answer the other question, yes that buff hunt on TIA in the Omay was shot on the second shot going away and it traversed the whole animal and ended up on the right shoulder. A solid would likely not have gone further.
I realize to some I may paint the TSX as some magical bullet that can do it all. But that has simply been my experience.
No I don't spend a lot of time studying ballistics etc but what I do with my time is kill animals.
I am sorry you don't like my videos and YouTube appearances. I don't know what I've done to you?
Regards,
Philip

 

[michael458]

I have likely killed more total animals than most anyone on this site. I've lived on a ranch and have been killing animals my entire life. All kinds of animals from a very young age. I guide many hunters myself here in Texas

No I don't spend a lot of time studying ballistics etc but what I do with my time is kill animals.

@Philip Glass , I am going to be straight up with you, as I am with all folks, good, bad, indifferent, like it, believe it, does not matter. I promise you, it is not my intention to offend you in any way, what you do is your business, and has zero effect on me either way. Statements as you have made above, does not impress everyone, and especially shooters. I can say I shoot more big bore rifles in week than you have in 10 years! So what does that mean? Does that impress you? No, of course not. I can say I have done development on bullets, bullet designs, designed the CEB #13 Solids, and the Raptors, have done pressure data on many cartridges, have developed and designed 6 .500 caliber cartridges/rifles and the bullets to be used in them, two .474 caliber cartridges/rifles and bullets designed with CEB and North Fork, four 458 caliber cartridges/rifles and designed bullets for those with CEB and North Fork, one 416 caliber and one .366 caliber, and yes, along with bullets, there was one 375 caliber but it is shunned by the designer and not spoken of........ I could say all that, but so what, does that impress you? Probably not. And that is fine, it is of no consequence and I am not offended one way or the other, or care. But this subject is about Buffalo, it does not mention deer or other species, it asks "Solids or Not", and that even that can be some misleading, as mentioned I believe in my first post on this subject. And addressed there and later.......... I support 100% using a Trauma Inflicting bullet for 1st round on buffalo, and then Solids (properly designed solids) from that point on, stating clearly my reasons for such. I only advocate Solids on 1st and all shots thereafter in certain cartridges, and this is to insure penetration from most any angle, properly designed Flat Nose so they hit hard up front........Clear and simple, nothing about killing animals all ones life, I can state right now, without any doubt at all, you have certainly killed way more deer than I will ever kill in my entire lifetime if I lived to be a 1000 years old.... I don't hunt deer, care nothing about it. So you Win. You killed more deer than me.

I do like your choice in .224 caliber being a Barnes TSX of some sort, I like the 62 gr Barnes TSX in .224 for that work, if using a common Conventional, it will do the job and give you adequate penetration. Once again, I use a 50 Raptor in .224 for my stuff, both are good choices......... Guess what? I like Solids for some applications in .224 as well, one can always find a use for a good solid...........

Furthermore, I like Barnes TSX bullets. In the beginning, I loved the Barnes X..... before TSX, the concept is great, trauma and extreme penetration for a conventional expanding bullet. But the problem was, there were no grooves for the excess copper to flow into, accuracy was hit and miss, good and awful, in the same rifle from one day to the next......... haphazard at best, after that I went to the Swift A Frame for some years. Then for a short period I got turned back on the TSX, with the grooves, and found it to be the most accurate of the Premium Conventionals in all cartridges/calibers, and incredible performance...... This was only a short period of time, and then along came Generation 1 Copper CNC and then later the Raptors which were designed here for all the big bores at the time. For trauma inflicted, the Raptors and Gen 1 CNC came out on top, and still do, and also, penetration is deeper with those as well....... the rest of my hunting carreer was spent with the new Extremes........ I of course have been retired from hunting a few years........ But, not retired from shooting and development. So I have no hate in my heart for Barnes TSX, I would be using them too, if it were not for Raptors and Gen 1 Coppers like Hammers and CEB Maximus. But I am not a believer in using nothing but conventionals for buffalo either, there are just too many scenarios that come up after that first shot that any conventional, and even any Raptor or Gen 1 CNC cannot succeed in the way a Proper Designed FN Solid can.

To answer the other question, yes that buff hunt on TIA in the Omay was shot on the second shot going away and it traversed the whole animal and ended up on the right shoulder. A solid would likely not have gone further.

I will take you at your word, and say well done. However, a CEB #13 or North Fork modern Solid would have exited that same shot. How do I know, I have taken similar shots on buffalo with various calibers and #13 Solids.

Many years ago, I was almost hoodwinked into this believe, with Raptors..... Raptors will penetrate after the blades shear about twice the distance (rule of thumb) than a conventional expanding trauma inflicting bullet. Maybe I did not need solids if I was using Raptors? Hmmm....... OK let try this out. So in 2011 I shot a nice bull, standing 50 yards dead broadside, easiest shot you could imagine. Problem #1.... standing under a tree in the shadows. Problem #1..... I had just started wearing glasses, I was not used to them, I had left them in camp, and didn't even have them on. Well, regardless, I thought I was dead on the shoulder and turned a .500 caliber 450 gr Raptor at 2450 fps loose........ Buffalo bucks up, runs off.... No chance for second shot, or I would have, which was another Raptor........ Bad shooting, gut shot sure as hell....... Crap we were in for a day or more now, or so we thought. We immediately followed up, in less than 100 yards, probably around 75 yards we caught up with him, he was slowly walking ahead, he had to be aware of us coming behind, but he never ran again. I had the perfect easy rear end shot.... I could have done a lot of things thinking back, I might could have busted a hip or something, but a nagging feeling just told me don't shoot from the rear, even with a mighty Raptor, I angled, somewhat at a fast pace, off to his left, and worked up even with him at no more than 10 steps, he turned head to me, then turned away and tried to run, I hammered him just behind the left shoulder, Raptor exited far right shoulder and the game is done on the spot....... I chose not to attempt the rear end shot. Afterwards with a second bull, I did the same load out, and used it but not rear it was frontal and worked out. After that I figured this was stupid as crap, use the Solids..... End of story.....

That was this warrior......

To answer one of your questions, I have not used a round nose solid. Lately it was the Barnes flat nosed solid. That bullet went through an ele shoulder, stomach, entire back leg and nearly exited!

That was a good choice actually, I have used th .458 500 FN on a couple of elephant in past years as well, along with a couple of hippos. I first used the 500 FN Solid in 458 Lott in Tanzania in 2005 for second shots on buffalo, first shot was 500 gr Swift A Frames, followed by the Barnes FN. I had used the Barnes RN solids for the previous 5 years or so on other elephant and a bunch of buffalo, and the solids hitting ability was just not impressive, but one did not know that at the time, as we had not used the FN yet.......... Holy Smokes...... What a difference those FN Solids made, Buffalo paid serious attention to that after the 1 st round. I only shot 3 buffalo there, and all three took one round of the Barnes FN Solid and reacted as though they had been hit with the hammer of Thor...... Very impressive. Later in 2006 I had Lehigh design a .500 caliber solid in the same configuration as the .458 Barnes, it came in at 510 gr .500 caliber, at 2100 fps in one of my .500 caliber rifles, and it was impressive as well, I shot 2 elephants with those, one frontal brain and of course that was down and out on the spot, but the second one was heart shot, broadside, then a rear shot that also crisscrossed the heart from the rear and exited the front chest cavity, 7 feet of elephant, and a third that was another foot back from the second that was recovered, again 7 feet of elephant.........

I shot 5 buffalo on that trip also, and the bullets designed all did very well, but all were backed with that 510 Solid....... No recovery of bullets from the buffalo.

Naturally this bullet was studied fully, fully tested and vetted before going to the field...........

One of the few .458 caliber 500 Barnes FN recovered........

The Barnes FN Solid is a dandy bullet, you are not going to the field poorly equipped. The CEB #13 Solid and the newer North Fork Solids have some depth of penetration advantages over the Barnes.

I am sorry you don't like my videos and YouTube appearances

I am sure they are geared towards less experienced folks, maybe something in there can help a chosen few. Perhaps when you get a little more Buffalo experience and shooting experience you will also start to understand where I am coming from as well........ Best of luck to you, regardless of how you choose.............

 

[grand veneur]

The initial question was:

Solid bullets for Buffalo? Yes or No?​

For this reason, we don't need to argue about the effectiveness of one solid compared to the other, especially by shooting elephants, which is not the topic at all.

We mostly agree that buffaloes are shot first with SP bullets, but which SP bullet is used is up to everyone, there are enough good ones on the market nowadays. What bullets are used thereafter the first shot is open to debate. They can be solids, but they don't have to be.

One can also use solids first for shooting buffaloes, but one should discuss this use taking into account the cartridge and the caliber. The discussion has not clearly taken place in this direction so far, but it's not quite the topic. I mentioned this special case in my post #13, but here it is about hunting buffalos and that with cartridges and calibers that are mostly used for this hunting nowadays.

 

[BJH65]

Interesting post with some excellent technical information and practical experience from very experienced members.

27 years ago on our first African Safari to SA and Mozambique for buffalo and hippo, I was told to bring quality premium soft points and solids, I brought a 416 Rem Mag using 400 grain SAF and 400 grain Barnes solids. Soft points for the first shot and solids for follow up on Buffalo.

Fast forward to today. I have an upcoming Buffalo hunt in Limpopo SA This September 2024 and again in 2026. I will be using a 416 Rigby with Barnes 400 grain TSX. My PH and most other PH’s in SA it seems advise no solids for buffalo. They advise premium soft points only ( TBBC, SAF, TSX) in 375 H&H caliber or larger. I do not wish to go against their wishes. In my case I’m simply following their instructions but I admit I didn’t push the issue.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Interesting post with some excellent technical information and practical experience from very experienced members.

27 years ago on our first African Safari to SA and Mozambique for buffalo and hippo, I was told to bring quality premium soft points and solids, I brought a 416 Rem Mag using 400 grain SAF and 400 grain Barnes solids. Soft points for the first shot and solids for follow up on Buffalo.

Fast forward to today. I have an upcoming Buffalo hunt in Limpopo SA This September 2024 and again in 2026. I will be using a 416 Rigby with Barnes 400 grain TSX. My PH and most other PH’s in SA it seems advise no solids for buffalo. They advise premium soft points only ( TBBC, SAF, TSX) in 375 H&H caliber or larger. I do not wish to go against their wishes. In my case I’m simply following their instructions but I admit I didn’t push the issue.

The main reason for PH's to request a premium expanding bullet is for the trauma inflicting properties and potentially better blood trails they offer..a close second is the PH's don't want your solid going through your buffalo and hitting another one.
Having hunted quite a few buffalo in my time and having seen the good and bad of it I will be using 470 grain CEB Raptors and 500 grain CEB flat tip solids(458 LOTT) on my upcoming hunt to the Caprivi strip.

HH

 

[BJH65]

The main reason for PH's to request a premium expanding bullet is for the trauma inflicting properties and potentially better blood trails they offer..a close second is the PH's don't want your solid going through your buffalo and hitting another one.
Having hunted quite a few buffalo in my time and having seen the good and bad of it I will be using 470 grain CEB Raptors and 500 grain CEB flat tip solids(458 LOTT) on my upcoming hunt to the Caprivi strip.

HH

Is this more a recommendation by SA PH’s only to use premium SP on buffalo and not solids as opposed to the non fenced areas like in the Caprivi strip, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Mozambique, Tanzania, etc? Or is this a more universal recommendation?

 

[Red Leg]

Perhaps I simply came from a totally different background, based in other areas of shooting that causes me to view things differently than that of the typical hunter......? I came from a background of shooting, and in the early years the training was not for hunting, but other fields of study. Here we learned to plan for the "Worst Case" scenario and not the best case. We also learned that when the shooting starts, you finish the mission, you never stop shooting, until the problem is Solved, and even solved, you pay the insurance. Or, you no longer have a shot, or you are out of ammo. Furthermore, you made sure you have the right tools to accomplish the "Worst Case" scenario, not the best case.

While I do not NORMALLY recommend starting the dance with a Proper Designed Solid, there are those times that is exactly what might be required to accomplish your goals. Normally, if you are using a reasonable buffalo cartridge, one will always begin with the 1st round a Trauma Inflicting bullet, whether a Premium Expanding, or the more extreme Raptors or 1st Generation CNC Copper bullets. Then, for everything thereafter, there is not much of chance of the "Perfect Shot" any longer. If your problem is not solved, then the perfect shot no longer exists. The best tool to solve the problem is a bullet that is less likely to deflect if hitting brush or trees between you and your problem, this is not a soft, or extreme trauma inflicting bullet, this will be a properly designed Flat Nose Solid. You may face a easy straight away shot up the rear end, this is one scenario, you won't have time to be very precise, so one shoots for the largest area, dead in the middle, and go again if needed. You won't have the time to decide on exact placement, the goal is to get another one in, and start to slow the process down, to a more controllable solution. You will need a bullet that can penetrate deep and straight from any angle, rear, angled, through brush and even trees....... no Premium Soft/expanding or even the mighty Raptors or Gen 1 will be able to cover all these scenarios that you might or might not be faced with, I contend to plan for the Worst Case, not the best case.......

Where do you shoot a North Bound animal....... straight away, time is against you, precision is a luxury you do not have, in these cases you shoot for the largest target available, right up the middle. Or that is what I would do, and have done. At this point your first shot has caused everything to go all to crap, all bets are off now, you can stand and watch, or you can solve the problem.

Above I said "Normally" recommend Soft/Expanding Or extreme Trauma bullets first and followed by solids.......... But that is NOT always 100% the case. There are those, and I have been there and done it, that have taken rifles and cartridges that are not what would seem Buffalo Normal....... I have hunted and taken buffalo with Lever guns in past years, both 45/70 and my own larger caliber 50 B&M Alaskan, and with great success. For the most part anyway, in early years with 45/70 I had to use "Less than Desirable" bullets, simply because at that time there was nothing else available. This was a time before proper designed bullets capable of buffalo were designed for the cartridge, and I had not originally taken the little Guide gun for buffalo to begin with, the PH wanted us to do it, so hell, why not. In the end we had success, but we also had some short comings with our bullets, being a cast bullet at the time. Later in the larger caliber 50 B&M Alaskan, we had proper designed bullets, I had made sure of that, from lessons learned in years gone by. Whether you agree, concur, or not with lever guns and cartridges for buffalo is a moot point, and another subject that has been discussed and argued for years, and not what we are doing here, hell we are having hard enough time with the subject at hand, much less to introduce another factor. I am of the opinion that I rather have a big flat nose proper designed solid, if going to the field with a cartridge that is or can be considered on the edge for buffalo. So in this scenario, I would go totally with a Solid, first second and foremost. To ensure penetration from any angle presented, and being Flat Nose, hit hard enough to get the job done as well............ Handgunners have relied on this for years on top of years, and have been successful in their endeavors, rifle shooters could take some lessons from the HandGun crowd in this instance.....

A couple of years ago A friend, of my friend, was hell bent to take his Marlin Guide gun in 45/70 to Africa for buffalo. There was no talking him out of it, or getting him to do something different. My friend asked me to assist and load some ammo for him. Problem is, he really was not a shooter. I had several scenarios I could work with, I was thinking about the 350 North Fork Expanding CPS, backed up with either 325 #13 CEB Lever Solids, or possibly 370 Raptors and 400 Lever Solids.... but the problem is, he was across the country, so I could not just take him shooting and teach him what was what. I also did not have the rifle, to be able to set it up. I also did not have confidence that he might make the right choices in the field? So I had a lot of questions....... In the end, I decided to keep it as simple as possible....... 400 gr Lever Solids CEB,at 1850 fps....... nothing more. He went buffalo hunting and was rewarded with success...... I am friends with the PH, he sent photos, and report........ shot was about 30 yards, dead straight through the heart, buffalo ran 25-30 yards and fell over stone cold dead.......... So much for Solids not being able to do the job, so much for just Penciling through and running miles........... So much for the so called experts......

Later I employed the same Solid Bullet tech with my own 50 B&M Alaskan, shooting a 405 gr .500 caliber CEB Lever Solid at 2120 fps hammering buffalo with second shots, 1st shot was a 365 Raptor, but the 405 Solids ended the battle, and a hippo as well with nothing but the Solids....... Oh these big Flat Nose Solids penciled through alright, and while they were penciling a .500 caliber hole, that looked like a big wadcutter, they destroyed everything in between, bone, flesh, tissues, vessels, everything..........

There are scenarios where the Solids should be #1 and all thereafter....... Not normal circumstances, I don't recommend that if you are using a cartridge such as 458 Winchester, or other proper Buffalo Cartridges.........

I mentioned trees and limbs and brush....... and since we just discussed Lever guns.......After hitting perhaps the greatest warrior buffalo ever with a 365 Lever Raptor at 2200 fps behind the shoulder through both lungs, he took off running, from left to right, my second shot was the 405 Lever Solid at 2120 fps and I am not a good running shot, I saw the bullet hit him square in the guts, he kept on going and stopped behind a bunch of brush, could only see a small part of him, not enough for a 3rd shot, while watching this, loading two more solids in the gun to top it off........ the battle ended when later he cleared the brush and we went to it, finally he gave it up. That second shot hit a 3 inch diamter tree that was in between me and the buffalo, I did not see it of course, I was concentrating on hitting that running buffalo....... The tree was 10 yards in front of me, it hit square on, then went straight to that buffalo 25 yards or so behind this tree, it was on video taken from behind me, you could actually see the bullet leave the tree and streak straight to the buffalo, and by the way, it also exited the far side.......

View attachment 614262

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On another occasion I was with my Son hunting in Zimbabwe, I was using a Winchester M70 500 B&M, shooting a 450 .500 caliber CEB Solid at 2400 fps and its matching 410 Raptor at 2500 fps, I shot a cow buffalo dead on point of the shoulder at 50 yards with the Raptor, The buffalo simply turned around and was now looking at (What I thought I was seeing) broadside shoulder right side to me....... I fired a 450 CEB Solid dead at the shoulder, buffalo goes down, end of story......... Then "THEY" including my Son, pointed out I had shot through a tree? I turned around, and sure enough, I had shot through this tree, a rather large tree at that, inspection showed the solid exited the Tree, hit buffalo square on the shoulder, exited far side shoulder as well....... Don't ask me because I will never know, I never saw the tree.......... no, I don't know how that is possible.

View attachment 614265

So, tell me experts, how does your expanding Premiums do in these scenarios? If you can't, I can......

There is no telling, no planning, what sort of scenario you will have once that first shot is taken. Me, I am going to plan on Worst Case........... You can choose yourself what you would rather do and best of luck for you regardless what you choose.........

I usually notice a foot in diameter tree between myself and a game animal - even when shooting at buffalo.

I frankly don't care what anyone else uses. My "heavy" rifle for buffalo has been a .375 with 300 gr TSX or A Frame loads. My bulls, admittedly only four, were all taken between 25 and 70 yards. None traveled more than 30 yards or so, and two were given insurance shots. My PH has never had to take a shot. One was taken in the Caprivi, two in the Zambezi Delta of Mozambique, and one in South Africa. Should I hunt a fifth, it will be with a magazine full or a pair of TSX or A Frames.

I have used Woodleigh Hydros extensively on one safari. and one black bear. They killed everything that I shot with them - they just did it very slowly. On the safari, after watching their performance on sable, waterbuck, and nyalla - all of whom calmly wandered off 50 to 100 yards to finally collapse, I used A Frames an the buffalo and eland. The solids were indeed perfect for suni and red duiker.

Oh, and I also will never used a solid on a bear again. One shot, but a long time expiring.

 

[fourfive8]

Using the anecdotal logic expressed by many on these “buffalo” threads, all PHs need only carry 375s with soft points for buffalo