So you think you need to own a Stopping Rifle...

[DWB]

I have had my fair share of flack for shooting only big bores. Always amazes me how scared some people are of recoil that it bothers them if I shoot it

First time I shot my 404 I thought what the hell did I just do, now I shoot my 450 Rigby without hassle and will learn to use my 500 Jeffery in the same way soon enough.

 

[Nyati]

I´ve never felt I needed anything more than a .375, which I can shoot quite well.

For those who prefer the bigger bores, yes, why not, as long as you are proficient with them.

 

[Tam Dl]

Obviously one does not believe that a jazz playing actor is the same person that he plays in the movies, even if he did a lot of his own stunts. But watching him play mediocre golf really bursts the bubble.

 

[meigsbucks]

I have a light weight Sako .375 H&H, .416 Ruger Alaskan and a #1 .458 Lott. I shoot all three equally well, however the number of rounds of the Lott I can shoot in a range session is considerably less than the .416 or .375. Truth be told, I don’t feel much difference between the .375 and the .416, but I can feel the effects of Lott after a few rounds, not in the shoulder, but my head.
Years ago I owned a .378 Wby and it was outright VICIOUS. I fired a .460 Wby and it didn’t seem as bad as the .378.
On my first hunt, I took the .375 and .416, as I wanted whatever I had in my hands, able to handle my main target: Buffalo. It turned out, I used the .416 on the buff and seven head of PG and the .375 on three PG, all one shot kills.
My next hunt, the Lott will be going.

 

[skydiver386]

One thing needs to be made perfectly clear.

I do not NEED a stopping rifle, I WANT a stopping rifle.

 

[Tam Dl]

It is questionable whether the issue can really be decided on a board like this made up of potentially more devoted participants. The reality of working retail 40 years ago when it was my uni job was that someone would wander into the store around 2 PM, on a Friday, and say they were off to the Restiouche, or Africa that weekend and could we outfit them with what they needed. Or this being in Toronto, if they made their purchases earlier, the place isn't peppered with ranges, and how often did they take the rifle out for a workout. In general where records of shots to kill by cartridge are kept, the data shows an inverse relationship between how conceptually excellent a cartridge is and the number of shots take on game, by both the client and the guide (these being bear camps).

 

[grand veneur]

So you think you need to own a Stopping Rifle...​

... was the question to start the discussion.

I would say Yes because I feel better armed and more comfortable in an environment where there are dangerous animals. Sure, you are rarely alone when hunting DG, but there can also be situations where the client can be helpful with his stopping rifle. What kind of rifle is in question is more difficult to answer. You have to look at it from the perspective of a client and not a PH who is primarily doing the backup. As a client, you want to shoot the game as best as possible and for this you need a rifle with which you are able to place the first shot as precisely as possible, even under difficult conditions. The discussion was initially oriented towards caliber 50 and above. Such calibers are certainly the best stoppers, but not everyone will be able to place an accurate shot with such weapons. In addition, such cartridges are not all-round cartridges, so ultimately it is better for the client to make a compromise. One choose a rifle with which you are able to shoot many types of game and which can also serve as a stopping rifle in an extreme situation. What comes to mind is a rifle caliber 416, ideally one caliber 416 Rigby or caliber 450 Rigby for hunters which can handle the latter in various situations. Other cartridges caliber 458 are only suitable to a limited extent and cartridges caliber 50 and above are in our case out of the question.

 

[Tam Dl]

“There can be little doubt that a man should not be overweighted, but that every person should be armed in proportion to his physical strength. If he is too light for a very heavy rifle he must select a smaller bore; if he is afraid of a No. 8 with 14 drams, he must be content with a No. 12 and 10 drams, but although he may be successful with the lighter weapon, he must not expect the performance will equal that of the superior power.”

And George P. Sanderson In “13 Years Amongst The Wild Beasts of India”:

That seems to me to be precisely wrong for today. Not long after that quote was first published (1879) military cartridges were available to drive even 6.5mm bullets into the brain of elephants. 7MM, and up, preferred. Round, softish balls increasing in diameter by the odd linearity of a progression through, even numbered, gauge measurements, were in competition with the new "rounds" and their advantages of laser like accuracy and penetration.

So where is the linear progression in tools today? Black powder at least produces a relatively linear increase in performance. With high powered rifles, and bullets of reliable properties, the point at which full penetration is achieved occurs long before there is any decisive effect in knock down power. The same can not be said about recoil which does increase predictably.

Don Heath for his part summed it up towards the end of his career with the thought that on elephant the 9.3x62, or more commonly the 375 H&H, was ideal for stopping unless you achieved the knock out punch of at least the 500 Jeff.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Just to stir the pot a little here (in good fun).

Does anyone here have personal experience with either hunting dangerous game or having to stop a charge using either a 458 WM or 470 NE which proved to be insufficient, and believes one of the hotter stopping cartridges would have had a completely different outcome?

I'm aware of the early tales of the 458 WM but those issues appear to have been resolved with both modern powders and bullets.

What will your 570gr 500 Jeffery/505 Gibbs do that my 500gr 458 WM/470 NE won't when only seconds count?

Looking for first hand experiences.

 

[Certus]

Yep. First shot fired out of my newly built 404J I learned it ain't no 30-06. Hang onto that pup!
View attachment 638756
404J is more than enough gun. It is not pleasant shooting 400 gr bullets (307 gr loads were much worse!) but I've never been recoil adverse. I used 375 CZ550 to kill both my buffalo and I don't remember any special handling was needed. Shot it once off the bench before hunting.

Look closely at the photo. Note that the left eye (right side of image) does not track with the other one. It wears a silicon buckle around the eyeball. Muscles have also been damaged due to pulling the eyeball from socket for three surgeries for retina detachments (which is NOT done under general anesthesia). That eye sees well enough to give me some depth perception but that's about all. Right eye has pieces floating around in it. I estimate 25% of the time I don't even see the skeet target when I break it. At least four torn spots repaired in right retina with laser (MUCH more painful than general surgeries on left eye). Last general surgery was twenty years ago and no laser patch jobs since 2011. The surgeon has given me the green light to shoot but I am pushing the envelope with 404J recoil. Much as I would like to become a "natural" shooting this thumper, I must be conservative at the range. Probably should have built a 375 but it's a bit more complicated due to longer cartridge.

Sounds like you should run the 404 at original ballistics and have the rifle slightly heavier

 

[grand veneur]

That seems to me to be precisely wrong for today. Not long after that quote was first published (1879) military cartridges were available to drive even 6.5mm bullets into the brain of elephants. 7MM, and up, preferred. Round, softish balls increasing in diameter by the odd linearity of a progression through, even numbered, gauge measurements, were in competition with the new "rounds" and their advantages of laser like accuracy and penetration.

So where is the linear progression in tools today? Black powder at least produces a relatively linear increase in performance. With high powered rifles, and bullets of reliable properties, the point at which full penetration is achieved occurs long before there is any decisive effect in knock down power. The same can not be said about recoil which does increase predictably.

Don Heath for his part summed it up towards the end of his career with the thought that on elephant the 9.3x62, or more commonly the 375 H&H, was ideal for stopping unless you achieved the knock out punch of at least the 500 Jeff.

Sure you will stop an elephant with smaller calibers if you can place a perfect brain shot, but if you miss the brain, you will have a problem that you maybe would not have with a big bore caliber. Heart and lung shots are also only very effective by elephants when using big bores. Cartridges caliber 50 are in this case a very good choice for a stopping rifle and also for hunting elephants in general, but not very versatile for a client.

 

[RR 314]

Moderation is for . . . (dang internal filter).

I like the big bores, but the .375 will get you taken care of most of the time.

 

[Altitude sickness]

The question comes up about being able to shoot PG with your DG rifle. Out to 200-300 yards.

On my recent hunt this was not a factor. If we were on Buffalo or Elephant tracks. I had zero interest in PG.

If we saw bait animals from the truck IE: Impala, we grabbed the .308

for me personally the decision was much simpler than for a hunter that wants to shoot any PH he sees while tracking DG. He may want a flatter shooting bullet/caliber.

 

[Tam Dl]

Archery has an interesting phenomenon that may apply here also. Shooters from the best hunters to Olympians believe they can shoot bows that are actually too heavy for them. This is such a chronic problem that a top shooting school developed a program to counter this perception. At the end of the clinic, everyone had incontrovertible video evidence that they were overbowed. Everyone except the 3 local pro shooters who were the only ones who passed the test.

Not only was it the case that the remaining 30 shooters were all overbowed, but more interesting is the fact that it was impossible for them to tell. Had the world class coach who ran the clinic simply told us that we were overbowed we would not have believed him. The whole clinic was just an elaborate trick to acquire the video evidence.

If one looks at kill data from bear camps, the evidence suggests that shooters adopt rifles they can't control and it is actually a severe handicap. The more powerful the rifles, the more they miss on game, and the larger problem the guides have cleaning up the mess. why are the shooters so deluded. In the case of archery it isn't just ego, they can't tell.

On top of that is whatever feedback they may be getting from doing all this shooting form rests and sticks. Stopping would seem to be one of the remaining forms of field shooting that still occurs primarily from standing on two legs.

 

[grand veneur]

The question comes up about being able to shoot PG with your DG rifle. Out to 200-300 yards.

On my recent hunt this was not a factor. If we were on Buffalo or Elephant tracks. I had zero interest in PG.

If we saw bait animals from the truck IE: Impala, we grabbed the .308

for me personally the decision was much simpler than for a hunter that wants to shoot any PH he sees while tracking DG. He may want a flatter shooting bullet/caliber.

PG I suppose, not PH !

What I wrote; from a client's perspective, you need a rifle with which you can shoot other game species, if you want to do something like that as part of a big game hunting. Due to the external ballistics of the cartridges caliber 416 and some cartridges caliber 458 like the 450 Rigby or 460 Weatherby Magnum, shooting at 200-300 yards is possible. With cartridges caliber 50 this is very difficult.

 

[krish]

PG I suppose, not PH !

What I wrote; from a client's perspective, you need a rifle with which you can shoot other game species, if you want to do something like that as part of a big game hunting. Due to the external ballistics of the cartridges caliber 416 and some cartridges caliber 458 like the 450 Rigby or 460 Weatherby Magnum, shooting at 200-300 yards is possible. With cartridges caliber 50 this is very difficult.

Jhon pododora Taylor in his Book states shooting at a Buffalo at 285 measured steps and downing it with one bullet from his 505 gibbs.
Krish

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Sounds like you should run the 404 at original ballistics and have the rifle slightly heavier

I am running it at ~2200 fps with 400 gr bullets. Pretty close to original ballistics. The gun weighs ten pounds loaded. It will jump if held lightly. Much harsher recoil with 307 gr Hammer bullets was baffling. I used their recommended starting load 77 gr IMR4895. Still had difficulty hanging onto the gun. I gave up on those bullets.

 

[Tanks]

...

for me personally the decision was much simpler than for a hunter that wants to shoot any PH he sees while tracking DG. He may want a flatter shooting bullet/caliber.

I submit that if one is tracking DG, one will not be taking shots at PG. Heck, at my last elephant hunt we did not even "test" the zero of my double as the big tuskers that might be around knew of gunshot sounds and might disappear from the area for a week or more.

 

[BJH65]

Yep. First shot fired out of my newly built 404J I learned it ain't no 30-06. Hang onto that pup!
View attachment 638756
404J is more than enough gun. It is not pleasant shooting 400 gr bullets (307 gr loads were much worse!) but I've never been recoil adverse. I used 375 CZ550 to kill both my buffalo and I don't remember any special handling was needed. Shot it once off the bench before hunting.

Look closely at the photo. Note that the left eye (right side of image) does not track with the other one. It wears a silicon buckle around the eyeball. Muscles have also been damaged due to pulling the eyeball from socket for three surgeries for retina detachments (which is NOT done under general anesthesia). That eye sees well enough to give me some depth perception but that's about all. Right eye has pieces floating around in it. I estimate 25% of the time I don't even see the skeet target when I break it. At least four torn spots repaired in right retina with laser (MUCH more painful than general surgeries on left eye). Last general surgery was twenty years ago and no laser patch jobs since 2011. The surgeon has given me the green light to shoot but I am pushing the envelope with 404J recoil. Much as I would like to become a "natural" shooting this thumper, I must be conservative at the range. Probably should have built a 375 but it's a bit more complicated due to longer cartridge.

I am glad you mentioned this, perhaps a concern (detached retina) for some of us who shoot big bore stopping rifles? I mentioned this to my optometrist. Should I be concerned? I have excellent eye health and he felt it should be of no concern to me. Still, I limit my shooting sessions with the big bores, more for my shoulder than my eyes!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Jhon pododora Taylor in his Book states shooting at a Buffalo at 285 measured steps and downing it with one bullet from his 505 gibbs.
Krish

Yep. And Elmer Keith once shot a running mule deer at 600 yards with his 44 magnum revolver. I seriously doubt he or anyone else could repeat that feat. Weird stuff can happen when throwing lead up in the sky.