So what about the other English gunmakers? Watson, Cogswell, Army Navy

[Jager01]

ive been looking around and I have seen some beatiful examples of english gun making from these companies, but curious, if Rigby is one of the best, where do these makers stack up,in quality? Did any famous hunters use a Watson bros, Cogswell etc..

 

[Mike70560]

I believe John Wilkes, Watson, Jeffery, Westley Richards and others sold and/or built extremely good doubles.

In general H&H still commands the highest price. Rigby doubles can be found for reasonable prices. Some such as Army Navy were built as a working man's rifle and can be found for a good price. However price does not always reflect quality.

I am certain most PHs used doubles other than Rigby. Here is one example.

THE HON. DENYS FINCH HATTON BIG GAME RIFLE
A CHARLES LANCASTER .450 (3 1/4IN) NITRO EXPRESS BACK-ACTION SIDELOCK EJECTOR DOUBLE RIFLE, serial no. 13315,
25in. replacement nitro chopperlump barrels (by the makers in 1929) with matt sight rib, open sights and ramp-mounted bead foresight (missing protector), barrels engraved 'CHARLES LANCASTER - 99 MOUNT STREET, BERKELEY SQUARE, LONDON', treble-grip stepped action with side-clips, carved fences, automatic safety with gold-inlaid 'SAFE' detail, elongated top-strap, Lancaster patent detachable dipped-edge back-action lockplates, engraved 'patent 64311', Rogers patent cocking levers, best bold scroll engraving, the makers name within a cartouche, retaining traces of original colour-hardening, 15in. well-figured pistolgrip stock with cheekpiece, rose gold escutcheon inscribed 'D.F.H. - NOVEMBER 1928', engraved pistolgrip-cap and chequered steel grip-strap, including 1in. rubber recoil pad, fore-end with grip release catch, weight 11lb.7oz., in its lightweight leather case, the lid initialled 'D. F-H'.
The makers have kindly confirmed that the rifle was completed in 1911, originally in .475 calibre (and subsequently rebarrelled by them to .450 calibre in 1929) for the Hon Denys Finch Hatton

 

[Mike70560]

Here is another.

A pair of .450 (3½in. No. 2 Nitro Express) boxlock ejector rifles by J. Lang. No. 16748/9 They were bought by Philip Percival on 9th December 1927.

 

[Jager01]

Thank you, very interesting.

 

[Wheels]

Most game department issued 404J's in Tanzania in the 60's that I was aware of were either Jeffrey's or Cogswell Harrison's. Certainly not used by famous hunters or PH's. Just working guys that depended on them.

 

[Jager01]

The working guys who do it day in and out are still incredible in my book, what a job!

 

[Red Leg]

I believe John Wilkes, Watson, Jeffery, Westley Richards and others sold and/or built extremely good doubles.

In general H&H still commands the highest price. Rigby doubles can be found for reasonable prices. Some such as Army Navy were built as a working man's rifle and can be found for a good price. However price does not always reflect quality.

I am certain most PHs used doubles other than Rigby. Here is one example.

THE HON. DENYS FINCH HATTON BIG GAME RIFLE
A CHARLES LANCASTER .450 (3 1/4IN) NITRO EXPRESS BACK-ACTION SIDELOCK EJECTOR DOUBLE RIFLE, serial no. 13315,
25in. replacement nitro chopperlump barrels (by the makers in 1929) with matt sight rib, open sights and ramp-mounted bead foresight (missing protector), barrels engraved 'CHARLES LANCASTER - 99 MOUNT STREET, BERKELEY SQUARE, LONDON', treble-grip stepped action with side-clips, carved fences, automatic safety with gold-inlaid 'SAFE' detail, elongated top-strap, Lancaster patent detachable dipped-edge back-action lockplates, engraved 'patent 64311', Rogers patent cocking levers, best bold scroll engraving, the makers name within a cartouche, retaining traces of original colour-hardening, 15in. well-figured pistolgrip stock with cheekpiece, rose gold escutcheon inscribed 'D.F.H. - NOVEMBER 1928', engraved pistolgrip-cap and chequered steel grip-strap, including 1in. rubber recoil pad, fore-end with grip release catch, weight 11lb.7oz., in its lightweight leather case, the lid initialled 'D. F-H'.
The makers have kindly confirmed that the rifle was completed in 1911, originally in .475 calibre (and subsequently rebarrelled by them to .450 calibre in 1929) for the Hon Denys Finch Hatton

A Rigby "rising bite" will command a premium equal to the same caliber in a Holland & Holland Royal of equal condition. Prices on British doubles are based on perceived quality (damn near all were superb) however, some have higher perceived quality than others; embellishment (read quality of engraving) and to a lesser degree - wood; uniqueness (read rarity) the afore mentioned "Royal" and "rising bite" among others; and above all - condition. You can buy a Westley Richards "drop lock" double rifle for as little as 20K are as much as 60k on up depending upon condition and caliber. Everything is relative.

 

[CTDolan]

Birmingham was a center of the gunmaking trade and a lot of outworkers had a hand in the creations carrying lesser known names. All were very highly skilled and all did good work (otherwise, they didn't get the work). I've seen some Army & Navy doubles that were splendidly made, working class boxlocks of stunning fit and finish (all were mostly plain, with regard to engraving and wood, but they had it where it counts, in spades...dead tight on the face, lively feel, etc.).

 

[CTDolan]

Here is one example (and by the way, I should have mentioned that Army & Navy was an outlet, a retailer and these guns are essentially private-labeled items...made by another (by others), but carrying the Army & Navy name).

http://www.gunsinternational.com/AR...4b8d831fb-6E8C793A-90B1-1C33-4613E9B817C83934

I'd take this rifle over ANY modern double of a similar price. Heck, you'd have to spend at least twice as much to get something not even as nice made for you, today.

 

[CTDolan]

For when the listing above gets pulled, one of the images of the 470 double (as these threads can have a rather long life).

 

[CTDolan]

A more heavily embelished version of the same (with full scroll engraving, intercepting sears, ejectors, better wood, etc.).

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Ar...4b8d831fb-6E8C793A-90B1-1C33-4613E9B817C83934

 

[Pondoro]

I think that many of the other makers like Cogswell&Harrison, Watson bros., Army&Navy, John Wilkes, Joseph Lang etc. made excellent rifles..

These rifles have lived far too long in the shadow of the top brands..

My own double is a good example, made by John Wilkes "to the trade"...for Midland Gun Co. (Birmingham). It came with barrels in .475 3 1/4 and .280 Flanged NE.

These doubles can be bougth to a significant lower price in Europe than in the US and loading components/ammo can be found for most of them.

Kynoch have revived a lot of the older cartridges too...all loaded with Woodleigh soft or solids.

 

[juan pablo pozzi]

Hellow gentlemen how much is the price aprox of a army and navy westley richards 450 NE

 

[Rare Breed]

Depends on where you find one. I bought a Westley Richards made for Army Navy in France for around $15k when it got to me then put another $2500 into it to make it perfect with JJ Perodeau. Army Navy was a retailer and used a variety of great gun makers for their rifles. I bought mine from France

 

[wvfred]

I had two Army Navy rifles one in 450/400 3.25" and a 470 both were very well made rifles and shot great.The 450/400 is pictured in my avatar. I've sold both in recent years after I had cataract surgery I can't see open sight now.

 

[dogcat1]

I am no double rifle expert, but I have looked at a bunch. To me the Evans, Army Navy, Cogswell and the other "second tier" are very nice. I would likely use one of them over the more recent just for nostalgia sake.
I think the .470 NE is the best known caliber on doubles but I sure like the 400-450 3 1/4 as well as some of the others.

Honestly, I have been looking for a .375 flanged double "just for fun" but have yet to come up with one.

 

[Green Chile]

Some of the boxlocks and plainer builds (working rifles) are some of the best guns you will find where it really counts...the insides/guts. Many were built for working professionals that needed absolute reliability and depended on it daily with no need for the extra cost of finer wood and metal finishes. When you find one of those that was carried a lot and has finish wear, you will often find a very smooth action and crisp triggers/ejectors. That's the good stuff right there!

Army & Navy was not a builder but a retailer in those times. From their website...Established in 1871 as the Army & Navy Co-operative Society Ltd (Army & Navy C.S.L), the company started life as a large department store that supplied British military officers.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

White hunter Danny McCallum uses a 1907 built Watson Bros boxlock ejector in .450 Nitro Express No. 2 as his dangerous game backup rifle.

Army & Navy never built any firearms themselves. They subcontracted Webley & Scott to build all their firearms. As did RB Rodda, Manton & Co. and Lyon & Lyon.

The four most prominent British manufacturers of double rifles are/were:
- Holland & Holland
- Westley Richards
- John Rigby & Co.
- James Purdey & Sons (although John Pondoro Taylor, Don Hopkins and the Maharaja of Udaipur are the only three famous hunters that I know of who actually used rifles from this brand)

Other popular British brands were:
William Evans
Cogswell & Harrison
Charles Boswell
Charles Lancaster
Charles Osborne
Alex Henry
George Gibbs
WJ Jeffery
Joseph Lang
W.W Greener
Midland Gun Co.
Isaac Hollis & Sons

They weren’t gunmakers though, in the strictest sense. Because they had all of their firearms made for them by Webley & Scott In Birmingham. John Rigby & Co. initially made all of their double rifles on their proprietary Rising Bite action until 1915. Then, they started having them built by Webley & Scott until 1939 (when Rigby stopped building double rifles altogether until 1984 when Mr. Paul Roberts bought the company).

All the English double rifles that were built by Webley & Scott “In the white” were exceptionally high quality. But I’m personally quite partial to the boxlock ejectors which they built for William Evans. Built on the famed PHV1 Anson & Deeley actions, these rifles were built like tanks.