Should parents be held responsible?

[Boyd Brooks]

I see there is a lot of differing views on this, and I have my own.
A general feeling I get is most of us long for the good old days, before the political correctness and the lack of discipline, and all of these insane acts of violence. Back when you had a healthy respect for elders, teachers and parents.
Growing up in small town Ontario, kids weren’t getting into trouble. We were playing road hockey, baseball, biking, swimming, fishing and hunting. Only rule was be home when the street lights came on.
Yea I miss the good old days too!

 

[WAB]

I grew up on a farm in Ontario as well. We had free access to guns and ammo from a very young age. My first deer rifle was delivered in the mail. In high school we all had guns in our vehicles to go hunting after school. The only murder I remember in our town was with a hammer. What the heck happened???

 

[gbflyer]

Lots of comments here, haven’t read them all.

Go try to find competent mental health care today for an adolescent, youth, teen, Hell even an adult. A crisis call even will get a trip to the ER. You might get to see a “Hospitalist” there who will discharge with MAYBE a referral to a psychiatrist or psychologist who might get you in 3 months from now. If your chickenshit insurance will cover it.

Mental health care is 100% dysfunctional in this country.

 

[sureshot375]

Lots of comments here, haven’t read them all.

Go try to find competent mental health care today for an adolescent, youth, teen, Hell even an adult. A crisis call even will get a trip to the ER. You might get to see a “Hospitalist” there who will discharge with MAYBE a referral to a psychiatrist or psychologist who might get you in 3 months from now. If your chickenshit insurance will cover it.

Mental health care is 100% dysfunctional in this country.

This is the real problem that nobody is trying to fix. There is no mental health system in the US. The guy that shot up the school in Florida had the cops called him over 50 times by his family. He was seriously mentally ill and dangerous, but there is no system to deal with that situation.

as to the question of whether parents should be responsible, generally I say no. I’m not up on all the facts of this particular case, but it sounds like there may be some aggravating factors in the parent’s behavior beyond just having a unsecured firearm.

 

[gbflyer]

This is the real problem that nobody is trying to fix. There is no mental health system in the US. The guy that shot up the school in Florida had the cops called him over 50 times by his family. He was seriously mentally ill and dangerous, but there is no system to deal with that situation.

as to the question of whether parents should be responsible, generally I say no. I’m not up on all the facts of this particular case, but it sounds like there may be some aggravating factors in the parent’s behavior beyond just having a unsecured firearm.

There is a gentleman that used to live in our town. Very nice man when everything was in balance. USCG veteran eligible for VA care. He’d go off his meds, off his rocker, do something stupid (never really felonious) and the answer was to incarcerate him in the state lockup in Juneau. Get him back on his meds, rinse and repeat. No way he belongs in jail, not a criminal but mentally ill. After a brutal cycle of this over a decade, some local friends were finally persistent enough to get him admitted to the facility in Anchorage. With daily care he’s doing great, and knows he should be there.

Point is the ridiculousness of the whole exercise. Sorry for the rambling. This whole situation with that kid, and all the ones doing the same thing is heartbreaking.

 

[Hunt anything]

I’m late to the conversation but on the surface no worries but as more info comes out I think the parents definitely have some responsibility and maybe even some of the school officials.

 

[Areaonereal]

Referencing the law as immediate control….I do not see that either parent had immediate control, not even physical possession, but legal storage in a drawer Can not be interpreted as immediate control. Sickening what happened and yes the parents are dumb shits, but difficult to punish one for the sins of the other. If we hold parents for the actions of the child then bad parenting needs to passed as a law….the jails cells will be very crowded. I see civil liability but a stretch any prosecutorial liability.

 

[Tam Dl]

So I did the math at one point for my truck. When I look at the highway, I see a lot of soccer mom types doing 120 kmph vs posted 100 kmph. So they are deploying 44% more energy that the law allows. At 100 with my truck weighing 6000 pounds (yeah, that is the crazy metric/imperial world we live in), the car has .77 million foot pounds of energy. And at 120 it has 1.1 million foot pounds of energy. But if you leave your car unattended and someone steals it and has an accident, you don't expect to get charged with multiple murder charges. No doubt that day will come. But the people who are criticizing the parents for leaving unattended a gun that can develop 350 foot pounds of energy, typically, are often lead footing their way down the hwy with an additional illegal 370 000 foot pounds of energy. I see them every day.

When it comes to killing 3 people the kid could have used a knife.

 

[Tam Dl]

Just for fun, do you know what speed my F-150 needs to be going at to pack the wallop of a 9mm doing 1200 fps, with a 115 grain bullet? 1.3 mph. Yeah, I get it. The world doesn't work exactly like that...

10 000 foot pounds of energy, like a Weatherby? 7 miles per hour. I think the buff is choosing getting hit by the car. But in normal operating speeds there comes a point when you have crossed over into weapon of mass destruction territory.

 

[YancyW]

I have been super busy and haven't had time to really follow closely, but 500,000 bond for misdemeanor charges insane. People facing violent felony charges are released everyday for less. That is just nuts.

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I'm from MI as well; in most cases, I don't feel that the parents should be held responsible......but in this case, I feel differently. There were red flags prior to this; yet the parents bought HIM the gun four days prior to the shooting. They knew he had issues, but didn't lock up the gun or ammunition. Mom posted on social media a photo of the gun and the caption "Mom and son taking his new X mas present to the range". He was found by one of his teachers to be looking up ammo on his phone, and his parents were told......his mom's response (in text) was "next time don't get caught". Shortly after this little spawn from hell shot everyone, mom again texted him, saying "Ethan, Don't do it!" ......it was a little too late for that.
After the shooting, they quickly lawyered up their son. Then when they were charged, they went on the lamb.................
Yes........in this case I feel that the parents are just as culpable, if not moreso.

More details here...........

Prosecutor details disturbing warning signs and events that led up to the Oxford High School shooting

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald revealed what happened in the days leading up to the deadly Oxford High School shooting as she announced charges against the suspected shooter’s parents on Friday afternoon.

www.wxyz.com

 

[YancyW]

I'm from MI as well; in most cases, I don't feel that the parents should be held responsible......but in this case, I feel differently. There were red flags prior to this; yet the parents bought HIM the gun four days prior to the shooting. They knew he had issues, but didn't lock up the gun or ammunition. Mom posted on social media a photo of the gun and the caption "Mom and son taking his new X mas present to the range". He was found by one of his teachers to be looking up ammo on his phone, and his parents were told......his mom's response (in text) was "next time don't get caught". Shortly after this little spawn from hell shot everyone, mom again texted him, saying "Ethan, Don't do it!" ......it was a little too late for that.
After the shooting, they quickly lawyered up their son. Then when they were charged, they went on the lamb.................
Yes........in this case I feel that the parents are just as culpable, if not moreso.

More details here...........

Prosecutor details disturbing warning signs and events that led up to the Oxford High School shooting

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald revealed what happened in the days leading up to the deadly Oxford High School shooting as she announced charges against the suspected shooter’s parents on Friday afternoon.

www.wxyz.com

It doesn't work based off feels, you have actually have elements of your criminal code that make actions taken in this very specific instance a criminal act. I've yet to see that is the case here, and the state in this case has said MI laws needs to be changed, Mike Bloomberg and Gabby Giffords wholeheartedly agree by the way.

 

[Tanks]

I'm from MI as well; in most cases, I don't feel that the parents should be held responsible......but in this case, I feel differently. There were red flags prior to this; yet the parents bought HIM the gun four days prior to the shooting. They knew he had issues, but didn't lock up the gun or ammunition. Mom posted on social media a photo of the gun and the caption "Mom and son taking his new X mas present to the range". He was found by one of his teachers to be looking up ammo on his phone, and his parents were told......his mom's response (in text) was "next time don't get caught". Shortly after this little spawn from hell shot everyone, mom again texted him, saying "Ethan, Don't do it!" ......it was a little too late for that.
After the shooting, they quickly lawyered up their son. Then when they were charged, they went on the lamb.................
Yes........in this case I feel that the parents are just as culpable, if not moreso.

More details here...........

Prosecutor details disturbing warning signs and events that led up to the Oxford High School shooting

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald revealed what happened in the days leading up to the deadly Oxford High School shooting as she announced charges against the suspected shooter’s parents on Friday afternoon.

www.wxyz.com

By your logic Rittenhouse should have been convicted as well. "He should have known taking a gun to a demonstration might have gotten others to attack him". Which was what a lot of people on the left have said.

It doesn't matter what the parents said or did as long as it does not go against MI law. Also, nothing wrong with lawyering up their son, that is their Constitutional right.

I don't see a viable path to conviction here unless the prosecutor is going to try the case in the media in order to get the possible jury pool biased against them. It seems she is on the way to do that.

Now, the parents are not that smart with not turning themselves in right away. But again if we are going to convict people for being stupid or for bad parenting then we would run out of jails.

 

[sestoppelman]

The news in Australia said the parents have been charge with manslaughter and they are now on the run
Bob

They are in custody on $500,000 bond.
I had the same thought as one above on charging the parents. They plan to charge the 15 year old as an adult, not a child. So if he is an adult how are the parents still responsible for his actions?
The school is also partially responsible as well, as they knew the kid was a time bomb and not only didnt search his backpack which had the pistol in it, but should have sent the kid home and probably made a call to LE with what they knew.
Lots of blame to go around, but the parents are the most convenient.

 

[Brent in Az]

Michigan shooting suspect Ethan Crumbley's parents plead not guilty to involuntary manslaughter charges

The parents of Michigan school shooting suspect Ethan Crumbley each pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter charges Saturday morning after being taken into custody in Saturday's predawn hours.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Tanks]

I'm from MI as well; in most cases, I don't feel that the parents should be held responsible......but in this case, I feel differently. There were red flags prior to this; yet the parents bought HIM the gun four days prior to the shooting. They knew he had issues, but didn't lock up the gun or ammunition. Mom posted on social media a photo of the gun and the caption "Mom and son taking his new X mas present to the range". He was found by one of his teachers to be looking up ammo on his phone, and his parents were told......his mom's response (in text) was "next time don't get caught". Shortly after this little spawn from hell shot everyone, mom again texted him, saying "Ethan, Don't do it!" ......it was a little too late for that.
After the shooting, they quickly lawyered up their son. Then when they were charged, they went on the lamb.................
Yes........in this case I feel that the parents are just as culpable, if not moreso.

More details here...........

Prosecutor details disturbing warning signs and events that led up to the Oxford High School shooting

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald revealed what happened in the days leading up to the deadly Oxford High School shooting as she announced charges against the suspected shooter’s parents on Friday afternoon.

www.wxyz.com

By your logic Rittenhouse should have been convicted as well. "He should have known taking a gun to a demonstration might have gotten others to attack him". Which was what a lot of people on the left have said.

It doesn't matter what the parents said or did as long as it does not go against MI law. Also, nothing wrong with lawyering up their son, that is their Constitutional right.

I don't see a viable path to conviction here unless the prosecutor is going to try the case in the media in order to get the possible jury pool biased against them. It seems she is on the way to do that.

Now, the parents are not that smart with not turning themselves in right away. But again if we are going to convict people for being stupid or for bad parenting then we would run out of jails.

 

[Paul Raley]

My question is to anyone that has mixed feelings about this issue - What would your postion be and how would you be feeling if your child was one of the victims in this specific case ?

 

[Paul Raley]

Regarding some of the comparisons made on this thread I don't know if I agree , purely just because I don't really know all the facts and the "situation on the ground " there in the USA , and I don't think it is fair of me to judge or make certain comparisons unless I know the facts . I suppose the best people to ask are those of you that live in the USA .
Firstly how much of a problem is it where "children" ( minors ) use guns to attack others ? According to the media school shootings seem to be fairly prevalent .
Secondly is comparing the use of a vehicle to the use of a firearm in a crime a fair comparison , is it comparing "apples with apples" ? In terms of attacks carried out by minors in the USA how many have involved minors using vehicles to intentionally kill others compared to how many have intentionally used firearms ?
My perception ( based on media reports ) is that firearms have been used in nearly all the attacks where minors are involved in the murders of others - if so why is that ?
Are other mass murders / attacks taking place by minors using other methods but it is not being reported in the media / not receiving the same attention as firearm related attacks ?
My apologies for all the questions but I would really like to hear the facts / opinions of those of you that live in the USA .

 

[Tanks]

@Paul Raley School shooting is what gets attention for the most part. More minors are killed in gang warfare than school shootings each year.

Part of the problem is in today's schools there is no conflict resolution. When I was in 10th grade a guy and I had an issue. The PE teacher put us in the boxing ring. We resolved our issue and are good friends 50 years later. I went boar hunting with him 6 weeks ago in Europe Today the teacher would get fired, and school sued.

 

[LivingTheDream]

There are evil people in this world that will do evil things. If not a gun, it would be a knife, a bomb, a fire, a car...people that intend to harm others without regard for their own life will harm others. To blame the parents is a slippery slope.

If looking up ammo prices is a crime or considered to be leading indicator of a crime, everyone one of us will be in jail.

I struggle with what can be done to prevent these types of things from happening. I think there are measures that could be taken but they would go against living in a free society and would have unintended consequences.

@Paul Raley you only hear about it in the media because it fits a narrative. Shitty terrible things happen everyday, just it only makes the local news.