Shady deals in Zimbabwe - Hunters need to wise up!

[Ole Bally]

Jerome, I think we preaching to the converted here!!!
How do we get this message out to a wider audience?

 

[BRICKBURN]

There are plenty of people that show up on AH that DO NOT KNOW about the pitfalls that can be encountered.
Many of the regular members know, it's all the newer folks that are the potential victims.

Just have to keep preaching loud and often and hope it will spread.

 

[ActionBob]

I am just still learning about hunting in Africa, and yet I know there are no LEGAL $6000 elephants.

I may be a bit late to this thread, but I was offered a $6000 PAC elephant in Namibia this year at DSC, IF opportunity presented itself... I think these were reputable guys with a huge booth. (can't remember exactly who without digging into my pile of info)... I think it was more of a teaser that "if" the opportunity to take out a PAC animal while your there comes up, they want $6000 for it, no trophies can be kept so all you get is photos. But you get the experience!

I do believe even top operators in Zim. offer tuskless trophy fees of $3500, plus day fees of maybe $10,000 or so.

 

[sierraone]

I may be a bit late to this thread, but I was offered a $6000 PAC elephant in Namibia this year at DSC, IF opportunity prrsented itself... I these were reputable guys with a huge booth. (can't remember exactly who without digging into my pile of info)... I think it was more of a teaser that if the opportunity to take out a PAC animal while your there comes up, they want $6000 for it, no trophies can be kept so all you get is photos. But you get the experience!

I do believe even top operators in Zim. offer tuskless trophy fees of $3500, plus day fees of maybe $10,000 or so.

That is the first I have heard of such! I learn something new everyday. What is a PAC elephant?

 

[ActionBob]

Problem Animal Control... An animal that is thrashing huts or corn fields or generally running amuck.

And I was told that a herd of elephants will move into a villages fields (for example) and to get them out, a PAC tag is issued and a PH goes in to shoot just one elephant... He will pick out a mid or smallish bull, broken tusk, old cow, etc. If he has a client or there is a client hunter in the area, they will try to get him there if he wants to take the opportunity. I was actually told if such a thing happened.. As well as buffalo getting into a TB free zone... I was welcome to come along and shoot it for free but would get no trophies.... I suspect the PH might be a bit quicker with a follow up shot on such an animal as they are tasked to take it out. However if he was required to go as part of his local obligation, and a client is paying the day fees, it makes sense the client should be invited along and given opportunity... Unless he is a real bad shot or general putz!

Anyway, I was told to get a herd of elephants out, shoot one and the rest usually decide to "get outta Dodge!" If a herd of buffalo got across the fence into a TB free zone, I'm pretty sure they have to go in and shoot all of them.

So from knowing this from Zimbawe, I actually thought the $6000 was very high in Namibia.... Maybe I have my info mixed up? I'm still learning as well

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

How do we get this message out to a wider audience?

Not sure but you posting this thread has certainly educated a few. Also bringing back up this subject by AH members from time to time would be valuable.


In regards to PAC hunts, here are a few threads that hunters should read:
- Is it legal to sell a PAC hunt in South Africa?: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/is-it-legal-to-sell-a-pac-hunt-in-south-africa.5014/
- Problem Animal Control (PAC) Lion Hunts in Zimbabwe Questioned as Bogus: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...n-hunts-in-zimbabwe-questioned-as-bogus.2783/
- Problem Animal Control (PAC) Hunts are Illegal in Mozambique: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...rol-pac-hunts-are-illegal-in-mozambique.2786/
- Clarification on PAC Elephant hunts Zimbabwe: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/clarification-on-pac-elephant-hunts-zimbabwe.6633/
- Questionable Hunts: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/questionable-hunts.4539/
- WARNING: Bogus National Park Hunt in Zimbabwe: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/warning-bogus-national-park-hunt-in-zimbabwe.4560/

 

[Wheels]

Not sure but you posting this thread has certainly educated a few. Also bringing back up this subject by AH members from time to time would be valuable.


In regards to PAC hunts, here are a few threads that hunters should read:
- Is it legal to sell a PAC hunt in South Africa?: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/is-it-legal-to-sell-a-pac-hunt-in-south-africa.5014/
- Problem Animal Control (PAC) Lion Hunts in Zimbabwe Questioned as Bogus: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...n-hunts-in-zimbabwe-questioned-as-bogus.2783/
- Problem Animal Control (PAC) Hunts are Illegal in Mozambique: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...rol-pac-hunts-are-illegal-in-mozambique.2786/
- Clarification on PAC Elephant hunts Zimbabwe: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/clarification-on-pac-elephant-hunts-zimbabwe.6633/
- Questionable Hunts: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/questionable-hunts.4539/
- WARNING: Bogus National Park Hunt in Zimbabwe: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/warning-bogus-national-park-hunt-in-zimbabwe.4560/

One of the main problems with PAC hunts is terminology. Those of us that are older call them PAC hunts and probably always will. Now they are being legally marketed under the title of "Management", "Ration", "End of season quota" etc.

Laws changed...terminology and paperwork changed to make it legal. If you are hunting a CAMPFIRE area you may have quota but odds are that the animals have been in the maize at some point." If they are raiding fields they are still a problem animal to someone.

It would be nice to get some of the PH's, especially the ones in ZIM to decipher all the terminology for us laymen.

 

[BRICKBURN]

..............
It would be nice to get some of the PH's, especially the ones in ZIM to decipher all the terminology for us laymen.

Exactly what the OP is.

 

[Wheels]

Exactly what the OP is.

I understand. There are also other things going on in Ole Bally's example that are problems. ie: Zim PH without ability to hunt DG. Hunting in a concession that you are not permited for. Possible RSA PH acting as PH in Zim.


What I am talking about when you go around to outfitters that would be considered reputable PH's at DSC and they use the terminology PAC elephants. You question them on it and they say that is old terminology that they are used to using. They say they have quota for the area yet they still use the terminology PAC.

A Campfire area has quota. The quota is for elephants that live in or come into the area to eat the maize/melons. Are they a problem animal to the farmer? Yes. There is quota however so it is legal.

They will say Parks Dept. or Forestry needs meat. You then can shoot either a management or ration animal at a reduced price.

The RDC/Campfire area you are hunting needs meat for a feast. You can then shoot a management or ration animal at a reduced rate.

These hunts are marketed as ActionBob stated above. How are we as hunters supposed to know what is what?

That is what my request for a PH to explain everything is about.

Hunting reports here and elsewhere now use the terms management/ration, etc for what was called a PAC hunt 10-15 years ago. An individual will post a hunting report about shooting a PAC animal because that is what the PH calls it. Others will see the post and question the ethics of the hunt. The PH's still use the PAC terminology. That is what is confusing. That is what I would like to hear explained.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Wheels, I get it.
It's a little late in Zim at this point in the day. Perhaps tomorrow will bring some follow up.

It is one of the major issues in any research we do into a hunt in any country.

Euphemisms.

Those dastardly Lions raiding from Botswana are always a problem in the Kalahari!

I'll see if I can find some information as well.

 

[Pheroze]

Perhaps the best way to ensure everything you n legit is just case by case: Post the proposed offer here and allow those with more experience to chime in. Otherwise, it seems to be a moving target and way to much for the once in a lifetime hunter to decided.

 

[Dragan N.]

Not sure but you posting this thread has certainly educated a few. Also bringing back up this subject by AH members from time to time would be valuable.


In regards to PAC hunts, here are a few threads that hunters should read:
- Is it legal to sell a PAC hunt in South Africa?: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/is-it-legal-to-sell-a-pac-hunt-in-south-africa.5014/
- Problem Animal Control (PAC) Lion Hunts in Zimbabwe Questioned as Bogus: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...n-hunts-in-zimbabwe-questioned-as-bogus.2783/
- Problem Animal Control (PAC) Hunts are Illegal in Mozambique: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...rol-pac-hunts-are-illegal-in-mozambique.2786/
- Clarification on PAC Elephant hunts Zimbabwe: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/clarification-on-pac-elephant-hunts-zimbabwe.6633/
- Questionable Hunts: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/questionable-hunts.4539/
- WARNING: Bogus National Park Hunt in Zimbabwe: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/warning-bogus-national-park-hunt-in-zimbabwe.4560/

Jerome,
I was wondering if you could please clarify something about the bolded part with the PAC lion hunts as it is a bit unclear, which scenario would be legal and which wouldn't:

"Anthony Crick, Chairman of the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association further stated, “I have been to every department in Harare HQ of National Parks and have been assured that there are no PAC lion hunts in Zimbabwe available to foreigners and certainly permits to hunt are not issued before the season. PAC lions are only allowed to be hunted by Parks officials or Learners (apprentice professional hunters). Obviously if it happens that the best equipped party in the area to handle the rogue is a hunting party with a client, the client may get to shoot the lion. But this cannot be pre-planned and pre-sold and should, in any event, be a free windfall to the client and, if no Trophy Quota is available, may not be exported.”

Obviously the hunt cannot be preplanned before the season begins or sold in advance because a problem animal is hunted when the issue arises, you can't plan on when it will happen. However it then goes on to say that these animals can only be hunted by park officials or learners but later on it states that if the opportunity presents itself a client may shoot the animal. This has me a bit confused, so if a PAC animal comes up in the area and the safari operator who is best equipped to handle it has a client who is paying daily rates then they can go on this hunt together and the client may shoot it, this is the scenario I guess that is being described here and also the one ActionBob outlined.

However what if a PH, who doesn't have client, has to go after a PAC animal and he radios or calls his neighbor, who has a client at that time, if they would be interested in going on a PAC lion, hunt is this legal? I would assume that the PH who has the problem animal would be paid as a result but it would probably be a lot cheaper than what a trophy animal would go for. Especially if they're paid under the table.

Also what if a PAC lion comes up in an outfitters area and the outfitter lists it on their website or emails past clients who would be potentially interested that any client who comes to hunt with them immediately (i.e. on the next available flight) can have an opportunity to go an a PAC lion hunt along with taking the other animals they are officially coming to hunt. Would this scenario be legal? I could see this being problematic as it might give the outfitter incentive not to go after the problem animal as hard before a client arrives and with problem animals you would want them killed immediately.

I also wonder how big of a role corruption might play here to, if a corrupt local official is bribed then what is legal or not could be blurry especially when the laws seem to have loopholes in it...

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

Jerome,
I was wondering if you could please clarify something about the bolded part with the PAC lion hunts as it is a bit unclear, which scenario would be legal and which wouldn't:

"Anthony Crick, Chairman of the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association further stated, “I have been to every department in Harare HQ of National Parks and have been assured that there are no PAC lion hunts in Zimbabwe available to foreigners and certainly permits to hunt are not issued before the season. PAC lions are only allowed to be hunted by Parks officials or Learners (apprentice professional hunters). Obviously if it happens that the best equipped party in the area to handle the rogue is a hunting party with a client, the client may get to shoot the lion. But this cannot be pre-planned and pre-sold and should, in any event, be a free windfall to the client and, if no Trophy Quota is available, may not be exported.”

For me it is pretty clear and there is not much to clarify here: "no PAC lion hunts in Zimbabwe available to foreigners".

I am sure that there is some loophole in the law but pushing the boundaries isn't something I recommend getting involved with when it comes to hunting in Africa or anywhere in the world for that matter. I personally think that it is best to stay away from loopholes and hunt within the clearly defined laws.

 

[Hank2211]

I'm with Jerome on this. In my admittedly limited experience, there's almost always a loophole in Africa, but using a loophole exposes you to someone who decides you're now an asset to be squeezed. And depending on where you live, if you haven't followed the letter of the law in Africa, you can run into some serious issues back home. Not worth it.