Second rifle options

[Shootist43]

rookhawk, can you please explain your last post? I'm a bit confused by the info either as posted or what info is missing.

 

[rookhawk]

rookhawk, can you please explain your last post? I'm a bit confused by the info either as posted or what info is missing.

My poorly explained point is that we are overcomplicating the 375HH. Americans have delusions of 500 yard shots in Africa being commonplace, when usually you can't see past 50 paces. So then we start talking about flatter shooting 375 loads or for switching to a 300win to get longer pokes.

Off of sticks or a tree branch, on a spot-and-stalk hunt, how far can mortal man shoot? NOT THAT FAR. You shoot a .375HH with a full 300gr load, solid or soft, and it shoots flat enough for 99% of shooters abilities. It doesn't have to be over-thought. I've hunted ~50 animals in Africa and only one was 345 yards, a desperation play on a bushbuck. Other than that outlier, 231 yards was my longest shot...again, a really long shot. You just don't need crazy-flat-shooting lighter bullets and smaller bores to get the job done.

A .375 loaded normally with 1-6x glass is all you need for a reasonable shooting distance that 99% of shooters can actually accomplish. If you need more range than that, stalk closer. Also take years to build up your shooting skills, because most "sniper" oriented shooters can't make quick shots off poor rests any farther than these distances, and there is no time to dial in and tune for silly-long shots anyway.

In conclusion:

Dangerous Game hunt: Bring a big bore and a .375 as backup.
Plains Game hunt: Bring a small bore you love and a .375 as backup.

It doesn't have to be this complicated.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

I Agree with Rookhawk.
Witold

 

[Matt_WY]

How far do you want to actually shoot? Using a DG load of 300gr out of a 375 it is 18" high at 345 yards if I remember correctly. 345 yards is a REALLY long way to shoot. It's the longest shot I've ever taken. The usual answer is "get closer". At 20o yards which again, is a really long shot, a 375 is point-and-click easy and flies like a laserbeam.

Trying to keep that in perspective as this will be my first trip to Africa and I know things are up close and personal there. It's a hard change of view -- I'm in WY and while we try to get close, that sometimes means long shots are taken under the right circumstances. The bison I dropped last week was around 425. Neighbor's elk last year was 660. Etc.

No delusions that I will be shooting at those distances. However, the faster/flatter something shoots the less margin there is for error. That's why I'm thinking that maybe the best answer is the 375 as a second rifle with lighter bullets available if I'm in 'plains game only' mode'.

The animals there are all well-trained to stay in place while i decide which ammo to use, right?

 

[Matt_WY]

Dangerous Game hunt: Bring a big bore and a .375 as backup.

...and that's exactly where I was ending up, even if my logic was terrible!

Thanks sir!

 

[rookhawk]

...and that's exactly where I was ending up, even if my logic was terrible!

Thanks sir!

@Matt_WY I'll bet you a beer you will not take a shot past 250 yards in Africa. And honestly, you'll pay extra to get within 18 yards of the buffalo so you smell them before you take your shot. It's all spot and stalk. You're going to love it.

Don't worry about flatter shooting 375 light bullet loads, etc. They all shoot just fine out to the distances you'll be using. 300gr swift a-frame and 300gr woodleigh hydrostatics are just perfect.

The bigger concern I have is that I'm realizing you're a Wyoming shooter that takes 660 yard shots at home. Please be advised, YOUR TRIP IS IN DANGER if you bring a gun for spot and stalk hunting that is 18x or 24x power. You better have a light stalking rifle with a 1x-4x magnification scope on it that you can shoot instantly. You'll be so disappointed lugging a ridiculous long range optic in the bush and you'll struggle to find the targets they are so close.

6x or 8x is MAXIMUM magnfication you'll ever need for 99% of Africa. 1x-4x is where all your shooting gets done. If you have the 200 yard scope, then the 200 yard gun and the 200 yard ammo all work just great, ideal for Africa.

Don't overthink the 350 yard bullets for a 375 because then you'll want the 350 yard scope for that gun and you'll be a overloaded mess in the bush, unable to find the target, slow on the sticks, etc. (you have about 3 seconds to take your shot about half the time...you need rifles that handle instinctively like shotguns)

Basically take everything you know about Wyoming and Pronghorn and do the absolute opposite of what you think is correct with caliber, grain weight, gun type, and optic.

Have a great trip!

 

[Matt_WY]

@Matt_WY YOUR TRIP IS IN DANGER

Warning heeded! The 416 has a 1-6x on it and the 375 is a 2-12. And I promise to be good about keeping things on low power too -- ok, I do that anyway.

I picked up 8x binos so I could leave my 10x at home; I will say many kind words to my spotting scope before I leave to make sure she knows that her 60x is still wanted for glassing here in WY.

Very much looking forward to experiencing the differences of hunting in Africa!

 

[rookhawk]

Warning heeded! The 416 has a 1-6x on it and the 375 is a 2-12. And I promise to be good about keeping things on low power too -- ok, I do that anyway.

I picked up 8x binos so I could leave my 10x at home; I will say many kind words to my spotting scope before I leave to make sure she knows that her 60x is still wanted for glassing here in WY.

Very much looking forward to experiencing the differences of hunting in Africa!

Your gear sounds perfect for your safari, Matt. You selected the perfect kit for your hunt, good job.

FYI - I'm old school so I like Swift A-Frames because heavy for caliber bonded bullets work PERFECTLY. However, I understand you want flatter shooting in your 375HH and times are changing. I think a Barnes might do everything we value in a DG bullet while also being lighter/flatter shooting in case you need to shoot plains game. I've not shot barnes in magnum calibers but I'd be remiss if I didn't suggest it to you. Many on this forum have had exceptional results.

 

[Matt_WY]

@rookhawk

I'll bet you a beer you will not take a shot past 250 yards in Africa.

You're on! I hope to owe you a beer by the end of Sept 2020!

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk


You're on! I hope to owe you a beer by the end of Sept 2020!

Perhaps I can settle up the wager with you in WY this fall? Trying to get me and my son a plan to hunt antelope, or elk, or mulies. (he's 8 and really wants to hunt the west...me too)

 

[Matt_WY]

Perhaps I can settle up the wager with you in WY this fall? Trying to get me and my son a plan to hunt antelope, or elk, or mulies. (he's 8 and really wants to hunt the west...me too)

Absolutely! Let me know if you are coming! I am in Cody...northwest corner of the state, up by Yellowstone. If there is anything I can do to help I will, even if that's just buy you both dinner!

Also, my preference is a-frames too. For Africa, I'll just have to see what I can get and what shoots well in my guns.

This is a pair of 250gr a-frames I recovered from my most recent hunt. The one on the left is interesting. when you look at the base, you can see that the lead actually slid up into the center of the bullet, displaced from the jacket. I guess that;'s what caused the 'bulge'.

 

[rookhawk]

Absolutely! Let me know if you are coming! I am in Cody...northwest corner of the state, up by Yellowstone. If there is anything I can do to help I will, even if that's just buy you both dinner!

Also, my preference is a-frames too. For Africa, I'll just have to see what I can get and what shoots well in my guns.

This is a pair of 250gr a-frames I recovered from my most recent hunt. The one on the left is interesting. when you look at the base, you can see that the lead actually slid up into the center of the bullet, displaced from the jacket. I guess that;'s what caused the 'bulge'.
View attachment 266016

Matt, that is exactly the "Best case" look I've received with small bore rifles using a-frames and nosler partitions and accubonds.

However, when I went to 300gr a-frames in 375H&H all of them have been textbook atomic cloud mushrooms. The 50gr difference really changed the bullets terminal shape. Incidentally, the Federal 300gr A-Frame load and the Federal 300gr Woodleigh Hydrostatic loads are within 1/2" POI from one another out to at least 150 yards...something I liked in buffalo and other DG where the protocol is first shot soft, all remaining are solids.

 

[Shootist43]

Using a DG load of 300gr out of a 375 it is 18" high at 345 yards if I remember correctly.

At what distance was the aforementioned rifle zeroed at for the bullet to be 18" high at 345 yards? Please explain.

 

[rookhawk]

[QUOTE="rookhawk, Using a DG load of 300gr out of a 375 it is 18" high at 345 yards if I remember correctly. QUOTE]

At what distance was the aforementioned rifle zeroed at for the bullet to be 18" high at 345 yards? Please explain.

I always use 100 yard zeros. I have a rangefinding bino that gives me the holdover based on real ballistics. I ranged at 345 yards, it said either +16" or +18", I held high, squeezed, success.

I prefer to use a rangefinder for accurate hold over at distances. I'd rather have less deviation at closer ranges because close shots happen often, and I don't like the +/- 3" scenarios from muzzle to 200 yards at all. Just a personal preference on dangerous game rifles like 375 and 416. For small bores, I always zero at 200 yards and I'm good for all reasonable distances without having to plot a firing solution in my rangefinding bino.

 

[Shootist43]

Now I understand. The 18" being the "hold-over" is the missing info I was referring to. Before getting your reply I ran a quick check on Nikon's Spot On Ballistic Calculator. The bullet drop for a 300 Gr. bullet for a 375 H&H rifle zeroed at 100 Yds. was just over 36" for a 345 yd. target distance.

 

[rookhawk]

I always use 100 yard zeros. I have a rangefinding bino that gives me the holdover based on real ballistics. I ranged at 345 yards, it said either +16" or +18", I held high, squeezed, success.

I prefer to use a rangefinder for accurate hold over at distances. I'd rather have less deviation at closer ranges because close shots happen often, and I don't like the +/- 3" scenarios from muzzle to 200 yards at all. Just a personal preference on dangerous game rifles like 375 and 416. For small bores, I always zero at 200 yards and I'm good for all reasonable distances without having to plot a firing solution in my rangefinding bino.

It appears you've caught an error in my math. Evidently I'd programmed that rifle for 200 yard zero, because its 18" low at 345 yards with 200 yard zero, not 100 yard zero on that 375H&H. Thank you for pointing out my error. It's been two or three years since I used that rifle.

 

[BeeMaa]

It appears you've caught an error in my math. Evidently I'd programmed that rifle for 200 yard zero, because its 18" low at 345 yards with 200 yard zero, not 100 yard zero on that 375H&H. Thank you for pointing out my error. It's been two or three years since I used that rifle.

Time to dust that bugger off and get something on the ground.

 

[Matt_WY]

Matt, that is exactly the "Best case" look I've received with small bore rifles using a-frames and nosler partitions and accubonds.

However, when I went to 300gr a-frames in 375H&H all of them have been textbook atomic cloud mushrooms. The 50gr difference really changed the bullets terminal shape. Incidentally, the Federal 300gr A-Frame load and the Federal 300gr Woodleigh Hydrostatic loads are within 1/2" POI from one another out to at least 150 yards...something I liked in buffalo and other DG where the protocol is first shot soft, all remaining are solids.

That's interesting. Very good to know. i still need to work up loads for these rifles. I was planning to use a-frames for the softs, though there is also some appeal to a light load with the Barnes 250. Hadn't decided on sold yet, but was thinking of going with Barnes there too. Barnes and Swift seem to be the easiest to get of the 'highly recommended projectiles', so figured I'd stick with those unless there was a true need for something more exotic.

 

[Newboomer]

The hunt: Tanzania 16 days - leopard, buffalo, plains game

Primary rifle - 416 rem w/ 1-6 scope in qd mounts

I'd like to take a second gun. Keep bouncing between a couple options:

Option 1: 375 h&h w/2-12 scope in qd mounts

Advantages: if anything happens to the primary, I have a good replacement; even if 'just PG hunting' I still have a DG caliber in any hands if needed

Disadvantages: nearly a duplicate of the primary in terms of trajectory, etc, so not much actually value aside from the redundancy provided​

Option 2: a lighter caliber (338 wm? 300wm? 30-06?) w/ 2-12 scope in qd mounts

Advantages: flatter trajectory than primary rifle so easier for anything longer range; nicer to carry and nicer to shoot; can still swap out scope with primary if there is an issue with an optic

Disadvantages: No redundancy if my primary DG rifle goes down; hunting in DG country with a light rifle
​

Any thoughts? If Option 2, do I go as fast and flat as possible with the 200 wm and 200gr bullets or slightly heavier in 338wm and 250gr?

Half the fun is in the planning! Thanks guys!

7RM with 168g Barnes TSX.