SA PH's and Outitters- How does the game breeding affect your hunting business?

[spike.t]

bob i always enjoy reading your thought out logical posts.

 

[ActionBob]

Thanks Mike! Nice of you to say that.

 

[Royal27]

I was going to mention a BUBBLE before I even read Bob's comments. That is exactly what this is, a bubble. If an outfitter wants to ensure that most of us never hunt with them it is simple to do really. Just leave your daily rates as is, and then change the trophy fees to match the current auctions. And let's be honest, the only reason this hasn't been done yet is because the hunter's market won't bear those prices and this is known. And who but the hunter is the ultimate consumer of the new fangled saddleback ringtailed wampus cat that is now all the rage?

I've never had much interest in color variants, they just don't mean much to me, especially if raised to be such. I never would have paid much more for one and liken it to "paying by the inch." If I'm lucky and found the 1 in whatever number copper springbuck then I should get to shoot him, just like any other animal. But now, with all of the greed I wouldn't pay even a dollar extra for a color variant. I don't want to do anything to prolong the bubble.

The bubble will burst and some folks will go broke, just like with any bubble. It happens. And I'm OK with people making money if they can in the short run, but don't cry in front of me when the dollar made today cost a business in the long run.

Now to Jaco's point about a lack of conservation with the breeding. I don't know enough to completely agree/disagree, but it sure seems to make sense to me. If the animals are being bred like domesticated cattle they will end up being like domesticated cattle. Nothing wrong with cattle at all, but I don't raise cattle and try and tell someone I'm working to save the Cape Buffalo. Just call it like it is.

This is a complex issue, made more complex by big money. There is no easy solution, but the market WILL correct itself. It always does. Until then, I guess I will just have to live without a copper springbuck.

 

[Royal27]

Oh, and as many probably don't know what a wampus cat is, here you go.

My uncle always called them a ringtailed wampus cat and used to scare us to death when we were boys with stories about them around the campfire!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wampus_cat

I've done my cultural and educational duty for the day.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

actionbob RSA does not need to realize one single thing breeders are playing their own game, those who depend on game auctions to operate their business are going to take a knock, that's reality.

The breeding fad will start to lose steam within the next couple of years, no figure can increase by 600% in less than 365 days and not implode on itself, mathematics has proven this to us.

The hunting industry will survive in SA, some operators will sink, but the industry will carry on.

We need to confront the implications that the next 5 years of intensive breeding will have on our biodiversity.

The hunting industry is but a contributor there to.
Tanzania and Zim with their daily rates still makes no better sense than SA even at my own full daily rate (economical sense that is) the 3 are quite far devided.

In hunting as a business in SA profit margins are not what people seem it to be, I hate to sound like a guitar with a broken string but between fuel (more than double a gallon compared to the US, vehicles almost double and average income less than half, things are not always what they seem to be) on a $2700 kudu the profit ain't that great... (Just want to add this before we lose perspective)

My best always

 

[Biddleman]

Greed has a way bring everyone down. I'm not against breeding native animals to the area...but the color freaks I have a big problem with............

This^^^
The color variants kind of remind me of what has happened with dog breeds. poodledoodle this, pockapoo that. I actually saw someone who had what I thought was a flat coat retriever. They told me that it was a "black golden retriever" WTF ever man.

You want color variant animal? Just shoot a bunch of natural ones and have your taxidermist spray paint them any damn color of the rainbow you want.

Better genetics = larger horn length, that can't be disputed. But the cost that some are willing to pay, not just to hunt but also to have an animal in their breeding pool, is just obscene. And to what end? It's not to sustain the animal species but rather for the record books, which by the way, a very small percentage of people on this earth pay attention to. I wonder how many would still pay the money to hunt "the biggest and mightiest" if every record book omitted the hunter's name and only included the measurements, when and where the animal was taken.

The essence of the hunt itself and the happiness, fulfillment and enjoyment and everything that comes with it is being eroded away as more emphasis is placed on the tape measure and also with the different color variants. How many times have you seen on a hunting TV show where they never mention length or points? Or where they say we're going after the oldest, past breeding animal we can find? I've rarely seen it and the times I can recall is when they're hunting old dugga boys.

 

[Royal27]

We need to confront the implications that the next 5 years of intensive breeding will have on our biodiversity.

Jaco,

I find this piece of the puzzle to be fascinating, and honestly just don't know enough to have a real opinion either way. Do you really think that game breeding could end up being a large enough portion of the overall population to heavily impact the gene pool?

Wasn't it the Blebuck that was down to something less than a 100 animals at one point, and yet it has done great with its comeback. I know that 100 diverse animals isn't quite the same as even many more inbred animals, but could game breeding really put a wild species at high risk?

Again, not saying it couldn't, just not sure. This may be a whole separate thread and I seem to vaguely recall it being discussed in the past when I was just starting to frequent AH.

EDIT: And could this happen quickly, before the bubble bursts?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Oh, and as many probably don't know what a wampus cat is, here you go.

My uncle always called them a ringtailed wampus cat and used to scare us to death when we were boys with stories about them around the campfire!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wampus_cat

I've done my cultural and educational duty for the day.

What do you mean the wampus isn't real?!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

We are creating artificial camps, to the detriment of multiple other species and the advantage of a select few, not genetics, but biodiversity
The spin off will influence hunting in a negative

 

[Royal27]

What do you mean the wampus isn't real?!

I spent many a sleepless night as a boy, when you could not have convinced me that it was not!!!!

My uncle is an amazing story teller.... Scared my own sons with the same story, if I do say so myself!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I spent many a sleepless night as a boy, when you could not have convinced me that it was not!!!!

My uncle is an amazing story teller.... Scared my own sons with the same story, if I do say so myself!

You of course sent the boys into the night for their obligatory snipe hunt I hope?

 

[Royal27]

Phil,

The younger one is still working on forgiving me for that, and he is 20 now!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil,

The younger one is still working on forgiving me for that, and he is 20 now!

LOL!

 

[gizmo]

Well it's a supply and demand issue. We have the same thing here in Texas. It's a good thing as a whole where I take issue is when breeders drive prices up for no apparent reason. This is the issue I get pissed about. Here, animal prices skyrocket for the simple fact that breeders can charge what they want because they know if you need an animal they know they have you bent over a barrel. This is the only industry I have ever seen where supply can exceed demand and still have price increases. It's not sustainable and it will fall apart eventually. My hope is that it will settle at a happy medium after the breeders that are driving the prices up are brought down a few pegs. I remember about 8 years ago when, here in Texas, you could buy a nice kudu for about 1500$ and they would sell for about a 3500$ trophy fee. Now you can't even look at one for under 10000$ and you can forget hunting one here for under 15000$

 

[ActionBob]

Well it's a supply and demand issue. We have the same thing here in Texas. ... Now you can't even look at one for under 10000$ and you can forget hunting one here for under 15000$

At those prices why would you not just go to Africa to hunt a Kudu in it's natural environment?

 

[ActionBob]

Out of all this, one thing scares the heck out of me... That somehow the people involved get concerned about all these things to the point they go to the Government to regulate it! That would surely take a vibrant and dynamic industry down a path of destruction.... although I cannot imagine the sensible people involved in the RSA hunting industry asking their government to intervene.

It happened long ago in American Agriculture and it has been an overall huge negative to our industries. The common consumers/citizens think that farmers are getting rich off government payments when in reality it has largely become necessary to "farm the government program" in order to survive. We have given up a lot of freedom and opportunity in exchange for intervention and regulation that makes doing business more difficult and that holds our businesses back. Our government Agriculture programs are designed to keep prices low for consumers.... But the government cannot run things as intended.

So even though I cannot fathom the idea that sensible and generally prosperous people would ask for that..... I have to look within my own country and realize that fat happy overfed Americans actually elected Obama as president! So wonders never cease and stupid things do happen. So just sayin', be careful that you don't ask for something that you wish you didn't have after you get it!

 

[ActionBob]

Oh, and as many probably don't know what a wampus cat is, here you go.

My uncle always called them a ringtailed wampus cat and used to scare us to death when we were boys with stories about them around the campfire!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wampus_cat

I've done my cultural and educational duty for the day.

Come on Royal!!! I can only take so much of this Southern Culture in one month.... I just figured out what the heck "chicken fried steak" is and that there is no chicken involved????? Now you bring out a new hybrid female that sounds even scarier than a wife on a road trip at the wrong time of the month!? Give a guy a break!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Come on Royal!!! I can only take so much of this Southern Culture in one month.... I just figured out what the heck "chicken fried steak" is and that there is no chicken involved????? Now you bring out a new hybrid female that sounds even scarier than a wife on a road trip at the wrong time of the month!? Give a guy a break!

Did you have any biscuits and gravy while you were in Dallas?

 

[Royal27]

Come on Royal!!! I can only take so much of this Southern Culture in one month.... I just figured out what the heck "chicken fried steak" is and that there is no chicken involved????? Now you bring out a new hybrid female that sounds even scarier than a wife on a road trip at the wrong time of the month!? Give a guy a break!

I almost cracked a rib laughing!!!

Did you have any biscuits and gravy while you were in Dallas?

They don't have biscuits and gravy everywhere??? What a strange world....

 

[ActionBob]

Nope, just cannot understand that either biscuits and gravy thing either.
What the hell is wrong with Bacon and eggs? And Pancakes for God's sake!