Ruger Guide Gun Advice???? CARTRIDGE CHOICES???

[Velo Dog]

Hello again IronCowboy,

Yours truly is a dreaded "gun nut," as the bawl babies and screeching eunuchs like to call people like me.

Therefore, any excuse to buy another rifle is all the excuse I need.

The above "gun nut factor" is what I understand to be the very reason you want all these interchangeable barrels in different calibers to fit a relatively few actions/stocks/scopes, thereby saving yourself a decent pile of money compared to complete rifles.

However, if I wanted to save as much money as possible (in other words, if I didn't care about collecting rifles) and all I wanted to do was hunt the world's game animals, with my wife as my hunting partner, jack rabbits to bison and doves to elephant, we would have the following:

Only three - center fire rifles, one 12 gauge shotgun, one 20 gauge shotgun, two .22 rim fire rifles, and two .22 handguns - mas nada for the two of us.

All three center fire rifles would be bolt action repeaters (I prefer Model 98 Mausers but, there are other reasonable spin-offs of that design that could do well enough) and two of them would have the highest quality / most rugged scopes on them that we could afford, in claw mounts or properly made lever rings (Alaska Arms are quite good lever rings and also, I like the older model Talley ones as well).

My big game calibers of choice would be:

.300 H&H
.375 H&H
.458 Lott

(Be that as it may, I would not be too unsettled with my long-shooter being a .30-06 or 7 mm Remington Magnum or 7x64 Brenneke / 280 Remington, instead of the .300 but those would not be my first choices, definitely the .300 H&H would be though.)

My wife does not hunt but if she did, and she was fond of elk/deer stalking, I expect she'd do real well with the .300 H&H and 165 to 180 grain bullet, while I carried the .375 and 235 grain to 270 grain (depending on terrain & foliage) bullet as my elk/deer/boar/bear getter.

We could carry the same two rifles if we hunted Africa's so called plains game together, perhaps with heavier bullets, unless hunting the E. Cape or Namibia, then we'd just use the elk bullets as mentioned.

If we hunted dangerous game together, she could carry the .375 and I could carry the .458.

The .458 Lott would be made with iron sights to my specifications and used for things like elephant, hippo on land, buffalo etc. and therefore might not see much action over the years but, extremely useful for heavy/thick skinned game as mentioned, now and then.

If push came to shove, I could after all scope the .458 (with a very low powered optic - 2.5x or similar) and zero said scope with 350 gr to 400 gr bullets, to be used as my plains game rifle, after some heavy/DG was bagged (with the iron sights zeroed to 500 grain bullets), and I still had a few days to utilize on safari for antelopes and piggy wiggy, etc.

That way we'd not have to bring 3 rifles for 2 hunters.

As it turns out, my wife is not interested in hunting but even so, the three center fire rifles I described as my top choices would stand, plus I'd only need one 12 bore shotgun, one .22 rifle and one .22 handgun, .... again that is if I were not interested in collecting rifles, etc., as my main hobby and all I wanted to do was have the least amount of money in my tools with which to bag critters around the world.

Those six firearms would cover all the bases for my hunting needs personally - not much money in those by todays world standard.

For the two of us, we'd only need 9 firearms total.

My ideas are not the Gospel but might save hunters who are not gun collectors, a lot of money and lathe time.

Stay on that front sight,
Velo Dog.

PS:
I do not understand why a "standard" length action is more desirable than a "magnum" length action as they relate to big game caliber repeaters (except that the manufacturer saves a bit of steel on each one they make and steel is money).
Furthermore, I suppose if they convince buyers that newer/shorter cartridges are somehow "better" than the old H&H or Rigby length cartridges are, then more purchases occur - even I do get that part.

 

[IronCowboy]

PS:
I do not understand why a "standard" length action is more desirable than a "magnum" length action as they relate to big game caliber repeaters (except that the manufacturer saves a bit of steel on each one they make and steel is money).
Furthermore, I suppose if they convince buyers that newer/shorter cartridges are somehow "better" than the old H&H or Rigby length cartridges are, then more purchases occur - even I do get that part.

Velo, thanks for the thought out and detailed response. As you claimed about yourself, I'm undoubtedly a "gun-nut," certifiably so, but I suppose I might be in remission of sorts, as I often look at my gunsafe and think about the guns in there that I no longer need/want, with a mind towards quite few new fun ones I'd like to turn over. I'm mostly converting handfulls of non-custom factory rifles into a smaller number of semi-custom, or purely custom rifles. I sold a dozen AR-15's in the last 18mos that were replaced by two custom built AR's. I sold two 338WM's to fund the federal run around to cut my 3rd 338 down to a specialty pistol. So I'm not giving up on "variety is the spice of life," I'm simply trading a lot of domestic spices for a smaller rack of exotic ones.

My wife and I will never be a couple with the "bare minimum to get us by," heck, her X-mas list this year includes a 3rd Sig P238 pistol, in purple this time, to carry on K-state game days, since Kansas just passed universal preemption. We have plenty of 'unnecessary firearms,' so don't take me wrong that we're broke or trying to get by on some minimalist budget or minimalist ownership. But, I figure this will be a way to save money, save safe space, and have a really fun project next year.

More than anything here is my major motivation for this project: I'm usually the type that buys/builds the PERFECT rifle for a given hunt scenario, and as such I have trophies from around the US on several different rifles. But whenever I look at those photo albums, I always kinda wish I were building dozens of memories onto ONE rifle instead of one memory each onto a couple dozen rifles. This project will let us do exactly that. I look at my son and think about the guns in my safe that I expect him to keep when my wife and I are gone, or what ones he'd pass down to his kids some day, and other than 2 or 3 of the heirlooms that were passed down to me, I can't say which out of over 100 in the safe that I'd expect him to keep and pass on. Great rifles, but none are sentimentally special.

I clipped down to your PS for a reason though. Without question, the preference of standard actions over mag length actions is only driven by the manufacturers. Having two production lines is cheaper than offering three - especially when the 3rd is a low volume seller. There's also a big misconception that a shorter "long action" is stiffer and can be more accurate than a longer "magnum length action," per the similar argument among benchrest shooters regarding SHORT actions vs. long actions. It's funny, however, that more and more bench rest shooters are switching to long actions these days because they're loading super heavy for weight bullets into short action cases that need longer actions, otherwise they have to pull the bolt to eject a loaded round.

Why, in particular, that I am personally motivated to buy standard length rifles in this project is this: nobody produces a stainless Mag length action, and I'm a stainless gun nut. I'd have no problem building on a CZ 550 Magnum or older Ruger M77MkII Magnum Actions, but they're not stainless, and they're also not available as stripped actions - so the total cost is somewhere around 4x or more to get into them (the CZ's are available stripped, but still blued). So admittedly, we're making a concession that the 458WM or the 416Ruger are what we'd consider to be "minimalist" rather than going into a Lott or larger, and the 338WM is a concession rather than a 375H&H, again, since it fits in a standard length.

So if I really CAN'T get the job done with a 416 Ruger or 458WM that fit in a standard length, then maybe I need to reconsider the entire deal. But if I can, then that's kinda how I got to this point - two Ruger Hawkeye All-Weathers or Guide Guns, rebuilt for any hunting I could do.

 

[Velo Dog]

Velo, thanks for the thought out and detailed response. As you claimed about yourself, I'm undoubtedly a "gun-nut," certifiably so, but I suppose I might be in remission of sorts, as I often look at my gunsafe and think about the guns in there that I no longer need/want, with a mind towards quite few new fun ones I'd like to turn over. I'm mostly converting handfulls of non-custom factory rifles into a smaller number of semi-custom, or purely custom rifles. I sold a dozen AR-15's in the last 18mos that were replaced by two custom built AR's. I sold two 338WM's to fund the federal run around to cut my 3rd 338 down to a specialty pistol. So I'm not giving up on "variety is the spice of life," I'm simply trading a lot of domestic spices for a smaller rack of exotic ones.

My wife and I will never be a couple with the "bare minimum to get us by," heck, her X-mas list this year includes a 3rd Sig P238 pistol, in purple this time, to carry on K-state game days, since Kansas just passed universal preemption. We have plenty of 'unnecessary firearms,' so don't take me wrong that we're broke or trying to get by on some minimalist budget or minimalist ownership. But, I figure this will be a way to save money, save safe space, and have a really fun project next year.

More than anything here is my major motivation for this project: I'm usually the type that buys/builds the PERFECT rifle for a given hunt scenario, and as such I have trophies from around the US on several different rifles. But whenever I look at those photo albums, I always kinda wish I were building dozens of memories onto ONE rifle instead of one memory each onto a couple dozen rifles. This project will let us do exactly that. I look at my son and think about the guns in my safe that I expect him to keep when my wife and I are gone, or what ones he'd pass down to his kids some day, and other than 2 or 3 of the heirlooms that were passed down to me, I can't say which out of over 100 in the safe that I'd expect him to keep and pass on. Great rifles, but none are sentimentally special.

I clipped down to your PS for a reason though. Without question, the preference of standard actions over mag length actions is only driven by the manufacturers. Having two production lines is cheaper than offering three - especially when the 3rd is a low volume seller. There's also a big misconception that a shorter "long action" is stiffer and can be more accurate than a longer "magnum length action," per the similar argument among benchrest shooters regarding SHORT actions vs. long actions. It's funny, however, that more and more bench rest shooters are switching to long actions these days because they're loading super heavy for weight bullets into short action cases that need longer actions, otherwise they have to pull the bolt to eject a loaded round.

Why, in particular, that I am personally motivated to buy standard length rifles in this project is this: nobody produces a stainless Mag length action, and I'm a stainless gun nut. I'd have no problem building on a CZ 550 Magnum or older Ruger M77MkII Magnum Actions, but they're not stainless, and they're also not available as stripped actions - so the total cost is somewhere around 4x or more to get into them (the CZ's are available stripped, but still blued). So admittedly, we're making a concession that the 458WM or the 416Ruger are what we'd consider to be "minimalist" rather than going into a Lott or larger, and the 338WM is a concession rather than a 375H&H, again, since it fits in a standard length.

So if I really CAN'T get the job done with a 416 Ruger or 458WM that fit in a standard length, then maybe I need to reconsider the entire deal. But if I can, then that's kinda how I got to this point - two Ruger Hawkeye All-Weathers or Guide Guns, rebuilt for any hunting I could do.

The stainless factor I do understand, even though it is not "my thing" these days - (I don't hunt in Alaska much anymore).

 

[IronCowboy]

To each their own. I'm one of the guys that only buys blued firearms when a stainless version can't be had.

 

[matt85]

if I was going to take a single rifle to Africa it would be chambered in a 375 or 416/404 caliber. if I was going to take two rifles to Africa it would be a 6.5mm or 7mm rifle and a 458+ caliber rifle.

personally, id use my 6.5x55 and my 505 Gibbs as a two gun combo. if I was to bring a single rifle it would be a 416 RM.

in the end specific cartridge choice is a very personal thing. some like small bore magnums (I don't) while others like standard pressure long action cartridges (love em!). when it comes to big bore guns I prefer magnum length actions. magnum length actions allow for more freedoms as a hand loader. however you've made it clear you like long actions so the 458 WM may be just what you need.

the 458 WM loaded with 450gr mono-metal bullets or 480gr/500gr lead bullets has proved itself time and time again in the field. while it wouldn't be my first choice in cartridges, I certainly wouldn't feel under gunned carrying a rifle chambered in it.

-matt

 

[IronCowboy]

Not a very exciting update, but an update nonetheless.... MY PROJECT RIFLES ARE IN HAND!!!

I looked for a long time at the Ruger Hawkeye Guide Guns, but ultimately, I was going to change just enough about them as they stood that I ended up saving myself a bit of money and bought two Ruger 77 Hawkeye All-Weathers, one in 7mm Rem Mag and one in 300 Win Mag. Both will get stripped down to bare actions with all of the take-off parts getting sold off, 2 new barrels for each, new stocks, and new triggers. They'll get put back as a 7mm Rem Mag and a 300Win Mag, but with a 338Win mag and 458Win Mag barrel to go with them. I MAY splurge for a 416 Ruger barrel to go along with it, just to have a "mid-bore" in there, and if I'm honest, it's ~$500 for a barrel to get to say that I own a .416Ruger. For all intents and purposes, they'll end up looking like Ruger Guide Guns, but with a nicer stock and leaved express sights instead of the single leaf sight.

I have cheap "econo grade" walnut stocks coming in the mail right now for $65 a piece that will get recontoured and refit to provide "ideal fit" for my wife and I, then compromised to fit together, since when we're home, the 7mm will be hers, and the 300 will be mine, but when we head off on hunts, they'll be shared. We share several rifles now, so I think we'll be better off than one might expect a 5'3" woman and a 5'10" man to be in terms of buttstock compatibility. Once these cheap stocks get reformed how we want them, they're off to Macon to get duplicated in high density exhibition grade Turkish Walnut, with some special 'old school' and decidedly European touches planned for them when they get here.

To make all you big bore fellas feel a little better, I also picked up a CZ550 Magnum action (no stock nor barrel) with a .532" bolt face and .375H&H mag box, such that I can build a 458Lott on that EVENTUALLY too... I came to the conclusion that I miss having one around, so I'll build one back... Eventually... The same brown box brought me a Rem 700 stainless long action that's going to be another 6.5-284win, then of course I have these two Rugers to build, and I have two pair of revolvers on my bench right now getting a severe make-over, so the CZ will probably get back-burnered for a couple years.

 

[spike.t]

it will be interesting to to see them evolve, as you will hopefully put some photos up during the build.

 

[CAustin]

Seeing pictures will help everyone understand what your doing.

 

[ActionBob]

PS:
I do not understand why a "standard" length action is more desirable than a "magnum" length action as they relate to big game caliber repeaters (except that the manufacturer saves a bit of steel on each one they make and steel is money).
Furthermore, I suppose if they convince buyers that newer/shorter cartridges are somehow "better" than the old H&H or Rigby length cartridges are, then more purchases occur - even I do get that part.

As IronCowboy stated, It has to be the production lines and efficiency of time and capital investment.

The difference in the amount of steel is an easy thing to brush off on consumers who don't think it through or know, but the steel is just a committee (comes in truck or train loads and is the same no mater where they buy it) to start with and in the final product, it is a pretty cheap component and the difference from one action length to another is pretty small. I doubt the difference in raw steel cost is more than a good beer or cup of coffee.

On the other hand, The tooling to make the bigger actions and/or the switching the production lines around to turn out one or the other is a major efficiency drag. Any manufacturer these days is looking at efficiency. (perhaps other than for very high priced low volume things like expensive double guns).

Even in my small farming operation, get one little distraction and it does not take long to have several hundred dollars per hour worth of labor standing around looking on. And if big machinery is idling, it can quickly become thousands of dollars per hour. To quote Paul Tuttle Sr. "back to work!"

Behind the scenes and behind all the advertising, hunting shows, shooting magazines, talking heads, trade shows, banter on blogs and boards like this, etc... There is a production manager back at he factory telling the owners of the company and the accountants what he needs to run the factory more efficiently. So I personally think Ruger is brilliant with calibers like the 375 and 416 Ruger... They fit into the standard actions and can be cranked out efficiently. The ballistics for all practical purposes are identical to 375 H&H and 416 Rem Mag. They offer a price competitive and very capable option to the consumer... And I'm sure profit to the manufacturer. And that is the bottom line, if profit is not there, neither will be the products.... And they are a very capable and durable option at a low cost for the average every day hunter.

 

[Velo Dog]

As IronCowboy stated, It has to be the production lines and efficiency of time and capital investment.

The difference in the amount of steel is an easy thing to brush off on consumers who don't think it through or know, but the steel is just a committee (comes in truck or train loads and is the same no mater where they buy it) to start with and in the final product, it is a pretty cheap component and the difference from one action length to another is pretty small. I doubt the difference in raw steel cost is more than a good beer or cup of coffee.

On the other hand, The tooling to make the bigger actions and/or the switching the production lines around to turn out one or the other is a major efficiency drag. Any manufacturer these days is looking at efficiency. (perhaps other than for very high priced low volume things like expensive double guns).

Even in my small farming operation, get one little distraction and it does not take long to have several hundred dollars per hour worth of labor standing around looking on. And if big machinery is idling, it can quickly become thousands of dollars per hour. To quote Paul Tuttle Sr. "back to work!"

Behind the scenes and behind all the advertising, hunting shows, shooting magazines, talking heads, trade shows, banter on blogs and boards like this, etc... There is a production manager back at he factory telling the owners of the company and the accountants what he needs to run the factory more efficiently. So I personally think Ruger is brilliant with calibers like the 375 and 416 Ruger... They fit into the standard actions and can be cranked out efficiently. The ballistics for all practical purposes are identical to 375 H&H and 416 Rem Mag. They offer a price competitive and very capable option to the consumer... And I'm sure profit to the manufacturer. And that is the bottom line, if profit is not there, neither will be the products.... And they are a very capable and durable option at a low cost for the average every day hunter.

Well said ActionBob, well said,

Being a Capitalist and all, I totally understand why Ruger and others do what they do.
Makes perfect sense when I put myself in their shoes.
They are not in business to please the singular odd (very odd) customer who, suffers from severe "show me" issues, also "if it works, why fix it" issues, not to mention "nostalgia" issues.
They are in business to sell thousands of units to the masses and I pray they keep at it successfully.

However, myself also being a Consumer, I am inclined to quote my favorite PH on the subject of these new, .30-06 length magnums ... "How can they possibly do anything significantly better than the original H&H and Rigby versions have been doing, for over a hundred years now ?"

That being said, even though I see no reason to switch over to any new fangled cartridges at this stage in my life (except that I do own the relatively new - less than a hundred years old - .458 Lott), I sincerely hope these new cartridges are everything that everyone hopes they are, including Ruger.

If Ruger went under, the world would suffer a huge loss indeed.
Therefore, I repeat that I sincerely hope these new ideas (not really that "new" compared to the .458 Winchester - the original "short magnum" - from 1956 or thereabouts)

I just wish instead of making all smaller actioned rifles and inventing new cartridges, they had not dropped their excellent true Magnum Model 77 RSM (formerly made in .375, H&H, .416 Rigby and .458 Lott) but, had instead added chamberings of .300 H&H, .404 Jeffery and .500 Jeffery/.505 Gibbs - wish in one hand and pile fish heads in the other you know.

I must go now because it's time for me to dial; 1-800-waah waah waah-boo hoo boo hoo, while I hold my breath and wait for the world to change over to my way of thinking.

Cheerio,
Velo Dog.

 

[ActionBob]

Well said yourself Velo Mad Dog! And I actually fully agree with you, just also understand the "why".

And yes the old Model 77 RSM's are to be cherished and hopefully everyone who has one takes care it. I'm quite sure we will always have true magnum actions available, but at what cost I don't know.

I wonder if Ruger still has the capability of making those magnums? Maybe they will crank out a nice big run of them again some day?

 

[Velo Dog]

Well said yourself Velo Mad Dog! And I actually fully agree with you, just also understand the "why".

And yes the old Model 77 RSM's are to be cherished and hopefully everyone who has one takes care it. I'm quite sure we will always have true magnum actions available, but at what cost I don't know.

I wonder if Ruger still has the capability of making those magnums? Maybe they will crank out a nice big run of them again some day?

Excellent point ActionBob,

And, I too have wondered if Ruger has archived the blue prints/tooling and such for it.

Seems unlikely to me they'd just toss that stuff.

It would be very much to my liking if they would turn out, even a limited run of them, in .404 Jeffery, with a larger, straight down bolt handle, similar to the old Pre-War Oberndorf Model 98 Magnum or even the Czech Brno Model 602 bolt handle.

I believe they originally intended the .404 to be a standard chambering for that specific rifle but it never saw retail status.

Ruger did however, chamber a few of their excellent No-1 Single Shot in .404 because I have seen two of those a few years back.

Both were crazy expensive, besides in that caliber, I definitely would prefer a repeater.

Also, but of less importance for me any way, would be a deeper magazine box and on the buttstock an oval shaped cheek piece.

They had better hurry though, because my fish heads are getting ripe here.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[gizmo]

So in my opinion based on ZERO experience with DG. I would opt for a 416 Ruger and a 300 wm. I plan on using my ruger guide gun in 416 to take my lion and buff. It has a Nikon monarc 1x4 on it. It shoots great and I really love the gun. As far as the 300 wm. I have one and have hunted everything from elk to blue wildebeest with it. I love that caliber and shoot hand loads topped with 165gr Hornady Spbt's. I've had great luck with that combo. Come to think of it I may have to pull that gun outta the safe and start shooting it again. The last few years I've been shooting my .308, 270, and 243.

 

[Velo Dog]

So in my opinion based on ZERO experience with DG. I would opt for a 416 Ruger and a 300 wm. I plan on using my ruger guide gun in 416 to take my lion and buff. It has a Nikon monarc 1x4 on it. It shoots great and I really love the gun. As far as the 300 wm. I have one and have hunted everything from elk to blue wildebeest with it. I love that caliber and shoot hand loads topped with 165gr Hornady Spbt's. I've had great luck with that combo. Come to think of it I may have to pull that gun outta the safe and start shooting it again. The last few years I've been shooting my .308, 270, and 243.

Gizmo,

My nostalgic old geezer opinion not withstanding, there is every reason to trust that your .416 Ruger and .300 Winchester caliber rifles will lay low the critters you are after.

My suggestions are the same ones that I swear by for myself, IE: consult your PH regarding what to bring and what not to bring, including specific bullets.

One example is that most African PHs will probably recommend that you leave the Hornady 165 grain boat tails at home and instead bring at minimum, some premium 180 grain bonded core bullets, or perhaps these newer TTSX types, for your .300 Winchester.

If you like the comparatively newer cartridges, pay no attention to my rants on the virtues of the old classic ones.

When you select any caliber, old or new, that is well suited to the game hunted and with it you slam the right type of bullet into the right spot, no beast can remain on its feet for very long afterward.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[K-man]

So in my opinion based on ZERO experience with DG. I would opt for a 416 Ruger and a 300 wm. I plan on using my ruger guide gun in 416 to take my lion and buff. It has a Nikon monarc 1x4 on it. It shoots great and I really love the gun. As far as the 300 wm. I have one and have hunted everything from elk to blue wildebeest with it. I love that caliber and shoot hand loads topped with 165gr Hornady Spbt's. I've had great luck with that combo. Come to think of it I may have to pull that gun outta the safe and start shooting it again. The last few years I've been shooting my .308, 270, and 243.

For what its worth, both P.H.s on my lion hunt carried .416 ruger, and I have used a .300 win mag on all my plains game except when I only
took along a .375 h&h. Your guns are merely bullet delivery systems, so choose the bullet carefully, with the input from your P.H.

 

[gizmo]

Velo Dog I agree with you whole heatedly. That being said the 300wm is having to stay at home this summer. We are only bringing 2 rifles, the 416 for my DG and a tricked out Ruger 270 for plains game. My kids will be hunting the plains game and the 300 is just too much for them to handle. My ph said the 270 will work fine. Plus, it's extremely accurate and the kids really shoot it well.

 

[K-man]

Thats the best part, "its extremely accurate and the kids really shoot it well." I bet most P.H.'s wish their clients understood that. Good choice and have fun.

 

[gizmo]

Weeeelll, I'm a firm believer that you could carry the largest cannon in the universe but if your scared to shoot it your better off throwing rocks. I feel that shot placement is the most critical piece of the puzzle.

 

[gizmo]

To be quite honest thats the reason I haven't shot my old 300 wm in a while. My shoulder is pretty much toast these days and I've developed a bit of a recoil sensitivity. I really though about putting a break on it. It's an ultra-light rifle and it kicks like a mule. I think a break would solve the problem. And while I'm at it a timney trigger would be a nice upgrade also. It's got the old pre accu trigger savage trigger that I swear feels like is set at 150lb trigger pull.

 

[ActionBob]

Velo Dog I agree with you whole heatedly. That being said the 300wm is having to stay at home this summer. We are only bringing 2 rifles, the 416 for my DG and a tricked out Ruger 270 for plains game. My kids will be hunting the plains game and the 300 is just too much for them to handle. My ph said the 270 will work fine. Plus, it's extremely accurate and the kids really shoot it well.

That 270 will do just great and if you feel under gunned on any PG, just shoot it with the 416. Your taking a great couple of guns in superb calibers which will cover all your needs in Africa as well or better than any other choices you might have made. You are going to have a wonderful and successful trip!