Rifle On Gunbroker

[Backyardsniper]

I don't have any affiliation with these guys but I had forgot that I put this in my watch list. It looks like a heck of a rifle and might be a good deal. I'm sure some of y'all that know more than me about this type rifle can look at it and comment here. I just thought I'd give every body a heads up on this one in case somebody was looking for something like this.

Mauser Sporting Works - European only - highly engraved - Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com : 905772548

Buy Mauser Sporting Works - European only - highly engraved: GunBroker is the largest seller of Bolt Action Rifles Rifles Guns & Firearms All: 905772548

www.gunbroker.com

 

[CoElkHunter]

I don't know about this seller Freddiej? His GB ratings show three Fs in nine months with 14 total transactions, all for holding buyers' payments and not mailing the purchased item(s)? Nice looking rifle though, if you could actually receive it from him upon payment?

 

[Backyardsniper]

Yeah I'm with you on that one. I didnt get far enough to look at his ratings. Probably why nobody has bid on that thing

 

[rookhawk]

I don't mean to sound like negative Nancy, but its an unremarkable gun that is incredibly overpriced in a pedestrian caliber. It would be difficult to sell that gun for $1200 over the course of a year.

Here is a gun that took me a year to sell for $3k or so for comparison of what you get for your money in German sporting arms.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Well that's why I posted it for people to take a look at. I'm not super versed in the value of these type rifles. Usually rifle value to me is directly related to how tiny of a group it will shoot resulting in my ability to kill stuff way far away. If it was say an Accuracy International AXMC or a Sako TRG 42 or even a custom rifle of a "tactical type" I would be able to tell you pretty much exactly what its worth. I just figured I would throw this up here for yall to look at.
However, I suppose this is a good learning opportunity for me if you would care to elaborate on what really drives the value of these type rifles. Interestingly enough now that you put up the pic of the one you had I can definitely see where it is quite superior to the one on gunbroker. I would have assumed the one you had would be much more expensive even than what you sold it for.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Those Europeans do some weird stuff with thier scope mounting apparatuses.

 

[rookhawk]

Those Europeans do some weird stuff with thier scope mounting apparatuses.

What you mean to say is that Europeans know how to properly mount a scope and Americans do not. That is a German claw scope mount arrangement. There are about 5 people in the US qualified to install such a mount. The cost of parts and installation of such a scope mount is about $2500, plus optic, plus a year or two wait.

Put another way, you can buy a best European rifle for the cost it would take to install the scope on the same rifle.

 

[Red Leg]

This is a guild gun put together by a gunsmith/ gunmaker using a mil-spec action and rather crude engraving. Probably made for an American serviceman after the war. Looks like a refinished stock and hot re-blue at some point. In original pristine condition it would be a $1600 rifle. As it is, and as @rookhawk notes, anyone knowing what they are looking at wouldn’t pay more than 1200. I would be thinking more like $800-900.

 

[Red Leg]

What you mean to say is that Europeans know how to properly mount a scope and Americans do not. That is a German claw scope mount arrangement. There are about 5 people in the US qualified to install such a mount. The cost of parts and installation of such a scope mount is about $2500, plus optic, plus a year or two wait.

Put another way, you can buy a best European rifle for the cost it would take to install the scope on the same rifle.

+1

 

[Backyardsniper]

I'm gonna say that a Pic rail machined into the receiver and a good, and I mean good like a SPHUR mount has got to be better than that business. I mean I know that is not exactly comparing apples to apples. Then again I have not handled one of those mounts, and I know that the Mauser type actions since not originally designed to mount a scope present thier own challenges in finding a place to attach the mounts where they don't interfere with the function, but I would definitely be curious about thier degree of repeatability and also the crazy amount of height over bore with no way to secure a proper cheek weld

 

[Red Leg]

I'm gonna say that a Pic rail machined into the receiver and a good, and I mean good like a SPHUR mount has got to be better than that business. I mean I know that is not exactly comparing apples to apples. Then again I have not handled one of those mounts, and I know that the Mauser type actions since not originally designed to mount a scope present thier own challenges in finding a place to attach the mounts where they don't interfere with the function, but I would definitely be curious about thier degree of repeatability and also the crazy amount of height over bore with no way to secure a proper cheek weld

View attachment 420257

I assume you really believe that. Should you ever develop any experience with wonderfully crafted European rifles (and shotguns) would love to discuss it with you. I will simply say Continental gunmakers have been building elegant scope mounting systems that work with absolute dependability for a century.

 

[rookhawk]

I'm gonna say that a Pic rail machined into the receiver and a good, and I mean good like a SPHUR mount has got to be better than that business. I mean I know that is not exactly comparing apples to apples. Then again I have not handled one of those mounts, and I know that the Mauser type actions since not originally designed to mount a scope present thier own challenges in finding a place to attach the mounts where they don't interfere with the function, but I would definitely be curious about thier degree of repeatability and also the crazy amount of height over bore with no way to secure a proper cheek weld

View attachment 420257

No disrespect intended, but my eight year old installs pic rails. It's a clown shoes setup for a best gun. It's designed to allow military to quickly adjust gear for a variety of accessories and variety of shooters. It is not something you'll ever see on a fine sporting rifle and it is a technology anyone can install if they can turn a screwdriver.

Compared to a design that requires a lifetime to learn how to hand file and fit that has no rough edges, no protruding bulbous junk, and can still operate with iron sights while returning to zero.

If you don't believe me, there are a variety of expert marksman on this forum that had stars on their shoulder back in their days of military service that chime in from time to time. They'll tell you for fine sporting arms, Pic rails go together with clown shoes.

 

[Backyardsniper]

I can't disagree with the simplicity of the the Pic rail and I wouldn't want one on a very nice sporting rifle, well maybe I would, but I can certainly see where most would not as it is definitely a modern thing and would be most out of place on a rifle like that. Like I wouldn't want a scope, or a red dot for that matter on a double.
That claw set up just seems a bit unnecessarily complicated. I will stick by the point made that it would be very difficult to shoot that rifle accurately at much of a distance with the height of that scope though. I do understand that those rifles also were not designed to be shot at long distance so that also isn't a fair comparison. Those are two things built for very different purposes.
On a side note, is that a rail that runs all the way along the bottom of the scope in that pic? Is that part of the scope, or attached to the scope?

 

[fourfive8]

Gotta agreed with most on this one- pass and forget. The basic rifle may be OK but lots of clues are obvious. The crude engraving is most obvious. Almost as telling is the hasty and slopped on wood refinish- notice the shiny, sparkly vanish showing in the open grain. Another, slightly more subtle technique is the not so clever deception- "anywhere else this is a $5000 gun but here and just for you it is $2500". Really? Think about it, a $5000 gun is the same relative value pretty much anywhere. This may very well be a $500-700 gun with a lot of lipstick

 

[Backyardsniper]

I hope that they do have some rifles similar to these at the DSC. I do have limited experience with this type set up and it would be nice to see some of them in person and be able to handle them. Don't know if they will or not but it will be nice if they do.

 

[rookhawk]

I can't disagree with the simplicity of the the Pic rail and I wouldn't want one on a very nice sporting rifle, well maybe I would, but I can certainly see where most would not as it is definitely a modern thing and would be most out of place on a rifle like that. Like I wouldn't want a scope, or a red dot for that matter on a double.
That claw set up just seems a bit unnecessarily complicated. I will stick by the point made that it would be very difficult to shoot that rifle accurately at much of a distance with the height of that scope though. I do understand that those rifles also were not designed to be shot at long distance so that also isn't a fair comparison. Those are two things but gor two very different purposes.
On a side note, is that a rail that runs all the way along the bottom of the scope in that pic? Is that part of the scope, or attached to the scope?

@Backyardsniper your critique may be valid, but you don't have enough data to determine if what you said is true about scope height.

Let me break down some of the things you're misunderstanding in your statements as pertains to fine guns.

First, the ideal fine sporting rifle will have a stock that allows you to instinctively bring the gun to your cheek and instantly take a shot. This applies to African rifles and also European running game (wild boar) rifles. So the stock comb will be high enough that you have perfect sight picture with iron sights. The German scope mounting system allows that ultra low installation of a scope as well, so you have good cheek weld and rapid eye acquisition for the same purposes. To you your credit, you're noting that the scope in question above is quite high. You don't know if it fits or not because you cannot see the gun's comb, but indeed, it is a bit high. The reason for its height is it has a gigantic exit objective to be used for running boar in low light.

Yes, it is a rail that runs on the bottom of the scope the whole length. You can buy Schmidt and Bender, Kahles, Zeiss, and Swarovski can still be ordered with this ideal scope mounting arrangement today. They do cost about $400-$800 more than the standard scope ring arrangement, but that's the finer way to install an optic.

The reason pic rails are awful for sporting rifles is that they create unnecessary height and weight. You cannot put an optic in every position as the front collides with the objective lens. It also has rough edges. It also can accidentally allow a scope to be reattached in the wrong location. The standard of return to zero is also lower as the slots do have some amount of movement.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Gotta agreed with most on this one- pass and forget. The basic rifle may be OK but lots of clues are obvious. The crude engraving is most obvious. Almost as telling is the hasty and slopped on wood refinish- notice the shiny, sparkly vanish showing in the open grain. Another, slightly more subtle technique is the not so clever deception- "anywhere else this is a $5000 gun but here and just for you it is $2500". Really? Think about it, a $5000 gun is the same relative value pretty much anywhere. This may very well be a $500-700 gun with a lot of lipstick

I can see what you are saying there. Once it is pointed out it is pretty obvious. I have been in the tactical rifle shooting business for quite a while and I think it will be very interesting to get into/learn about some of these more elegant, bespoke type rifles.

 

[Backyardsniper]

@Backyardsniper your critique may be valid, but you don't have enough data to determine if what you said is true about scope height.

Let me break down some of the things you're misunderstanding in your statements as pertains to fine guns.

First, the ideal fine sporting rifle will have a stock that allows you to instinctively bring the gun to your cheek and instantly take a shot. This applies to African rifles and also European running game (wild boar) rifles. So the stock comb will be high enough that you have perfect sight picture with iron sights. The German scope mounting system allows that ultra low installation of a scope as well, so you have good cheek weld and rapid eye acquisition for the same purposes. To you your credit, you're noting that the scope in question above is quite high. You don't know if it fits or not because you cannot see the gun's comb, but indeed, it is a bit high. The reason for its height is it has a gigantic exit objective to be used for running boar in low light.

Yes, it is a rail that runs on the bottom of the scope the whole length. You can buy Schmidt and Bender, Kahles, Zeiss, and Swarovski can still be ordered with this ideal scope mounting arrangement today. They do cost about $400-$800 more than the standard scope ring arrangement, but that's the finer way to install an optic.

The reason pic rails are awful for sporting rifles is that they create unnecessary height and weight. You cannot put an optic in every position as the front collides with the objective lens. It also has rough edges. It also can accidentally allow a scope to be reattached in the wrong location. The standard of return to zero is also lower as the slots do have some amount of movement.

I can see what you're saying there. The high end pic stuff is pretty repeatable but like you said you have to get into the high end stuff. The SPHUR runs $400-$500 just for the mount. While there is a ton, and I mean a ton of absolute junk picatinny stuff out there and it is absolute trash. I suppose that is the difference. With the set ups like you have, there is no cheap version of that. You buy the good stuff or you don't buy it at all. I understand what you mean with the stock being designed to shoulder more like a shotgun for running game. I have a CZ 452E I think it is in 22 and also a CZ550 375 that both have the European style stock that is designed to be lined up to use the iron sights and they are nice. I know that is the lower end of those type rifles but I get what you're saying and I do love shooting those.

 

[rookhawk]

I can see what you are saying there. Once it is pointed out it is pretty obvious. I have been in the tactical rifle shooting business for quite a while and I think it will be very interesting to get into/learn about some of these more elegant, bespoke type rifles.

The things that you'll realize that are different about your thinking versus best gun thinking:

-Accuracy doesn't matter. Accuracy is a necessary condition at a minimum, but no amount of accuracy is a sufficient condition to make a gun "good".

-Gun fit means a great deal. Low comb is key. How fast you can bring the gun to shoulder and the clarity of instant sight picture is huge.

-Whereas you presently revere accuracy, best guns revere flawless feed and extraction. That's why you'll see such emphasis on mauser actions (and their copies) and double rifles for their flawless extraction. You will not find many people praising a $20,000 custom Remington 700 push feed on these forums no matter if its 1/8 MOA...totally different mindset.

 

[Backyardsniper]

The things that you'll realize that are different about your thinking versus best gun thinking:

-Accuracy doesn't matter. Accuracy is a necessary condition at a minimum, but no amount of accuracy is a sufficient condition to make a gun "good".

-Gun fit means a great deal. Low comb is key. How fast you can bring the gun to shoulder and the clarity of instant sight picture is huge.

-Whereas you presently revere accuracy, best guns revere flawless feed and extraction. That's why you'll see such emphasis on mauser actions (and their copies) and double rifles for their flawless extraction. You will not find many people praising a $20,000 custom Remington 700 push feed on these forums no matter if its 1/8 MOA...totally different mindset.

Ha ha. I can see your point there.