Rifle Lessons Learned from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam

[CAustin]

Brian here is a fact for you! I don't know that "the fine gentleman is right".
I did read his article and it is pure opinion just like yours and mine.
Your somewhat new to this forum so allow me to share with you that we try to be respectful of each other here. It is good to have a gun expert like yourself share and educate the rest of us poor gene recipients! Best wishes to you on all your safaris. We look forward to hearing your reports!

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

@Brian Cameron, You're new here, this is a friendly community based on mutual respect. Our focus is to inform and enhance the enjoyment within the hunting safari community by encouraging the mutual exchange of experiences, ideas and opinions. Thank you for joining our community and we look forward to having you as part of our community.

 

[Bos Javanicus]

I enjoyed the article and it was an eye opener to hear his views. Unfortunately so many firearms are being built to a price and not up to a standard nowadays.
Like the author said, which I think has been missed the further this thread goes, is that it is when the heat is on these substandard firearms fail. For 99% of their use they are fine. The Author expects, and rightly so, that every dangerous game rifle should function flawlessly, each and every time without exception. And that is a fair call when your life depends upon it, and not really all that much to ask.
I would of liked to hear Don's view on double rifles, but I suppose not many apprentices can afford one.
I am lucky enough to be able to hunt Buffalo over here and hunt without a PH (actually I've never hunted with a PH) to back me up if things go pear shaped and it is very unnerving when you don't have 100% confidence in your firearm. I now use a double rifle and I have 100% confidence in that. I feel safer with a double than a bolt rifle, don't know why, just me I suppose.
Anyway, great article and thanks for sharing.

 

[Jwg223]

OP, I greatly enjoyed your post!!! I have personally seen the same exact things happen in the "tactical world" when students bring their home-build (incompetently) or DPMS/Bushmaster bargain-basement type AR15/M4 to a multi-thousand round 3 day course.

I have seen Eotech's die. I have seen optics shoot loose on the rail and the shooter be unable to hit the targets even at closer range. I have seen muzzle devices fly downrange. I have seen piston guns puke and break non-standard parts. I have seen all manner of things go TU on someone's rifle "that worked fine last weekend at the range when they put 100 rounds in an hour through it."

The #1 issue I see is "shoddiness of assembly". That is to say, someone will not use a torque wrench/screw-driver and stick to recommended and proper torque values. They will not use a thread-locker on screws that should have one applied. Firearms vibrate. Sound is vibration. Stuff literally falls off of these shoddy setups.

It seems that serious hunting use brings out similar deficiencies in your "world", too!

One question I have for OP and other PH's in this thread...what do you prefer on a DG rifle? Ghost ring? Blade and "V"? A single bead or dual bead like a shotgun? Is this a personal choice, or have you seen them "put on the clock" or otherwise tested against one another somewhat objectively?

 

[Ryan]

I own a Ruger in 375 Ruger and I'm not bothered by the original authors assesments at all. So far it's worked flawlessly for me, but he's right for dangerous game hunting we need to run a weapon through a real, fast, and harsh course and make sure it works all he time, not just the first shot. For me it just a reality check. This is far more than the first owner of my gun who (no joke, I about freaked when he told me this) bought the gun, had a gunsmith check it, mount a scope and sight it in and then took it out for a succesful lionness hunt. He was done after that, I got an almost brand new gun. It's had a lot more rounds with me behind it, but now I think it's going to get some hard testing.

 

[mdwest]

Funny... tens of thousands of the worlds most dangerous creatures (man) have been hunted.. in some of the worlds most austere and harsh environments.. in extreme cold, extreme heat, at elevation, etc.. at relatively close ranges.. and at great distances.. with Rem 700's (primary sniper system for the US Army, Navy, and USMC is a modified 700).. over the past 15+ years..

and no one seems to be complaining about their "junk", manufactured by the lowest bidder, American made rifles..

Effectiveness and reliability is as much about the ammo, the operator, maintenance, and long list of other things... as it is about the rifle itself..

Opinions are like a$$holes.. everyone has one... some stink more than others.. (my opinion )..

 

[Ryan]

Funny... tens of thousands of the worlds most dangerous

Good point. But you must admit snipers essentially do the same thing with their weapon as the PH's did here. By the time they reach the field they know that rifle. And out of curiousity it would be interesting to find out if Remington tests those weapons more before sending them to the military than they do for the public and how many the military find with problems initially and weed out.

 

[Hank2211]

Every rifle since the beginning of time has been made by a human being. Every rifle, of every size, shape and style.

Whenever humans are involved, the possibility of error is there.

There is no such thing as a failure proof rifle. Not even a double gun.

Yes, some are better made than others, and thus tend to be more reliable than others, and they generally (but not always) cost more.

I have not found any one country, culture, race, or creed, let alone company, produces perfection more than any other.

 

[mdwest]

And still another one that can't read the full article in full.

And still another occasion where you make unfounded assumptions that are incorrect and unsubstantiated..

I did in fact read the entire article.. and have in fact read every one of your rambling posts..

He says nothing to the fact bout the rifles abilities to shoot accurately and quite frankly did say that these type of push feed designs belonged in settings as you just described.

Since you want to go on about reading posts.. did you read mine? Where did I mention accuracy? What I said was effective and reliable.. which is a major consideration found throughout the article...

If you would have the respect for yourself

again unfounded, unsubstantiated, drivel...

to read the complete article and understand what this fine gentleman was trying to say you'd understand it's the rifles function of cycling rounds though and up into the chamber and firing from a standing up position as fast as possible to save your life cause said animal is only in some cases a few feet from your inexperienced got a death wish ass from reading some gun writer's acclaimed assumption that your rifle is the buck stops here lastest greatest bestest killing gun to have.

so you don't believe that snipers shoot from all positions, to include standing? and you don't concede that the Rem 700 has performed to high standards when shot from the standing position, under extreme stress, in harsh conditions, that often exceed those found in Southern Africa?

Where exactly does your experience and opinion come from? How much time have you spent behind a 700? How much time have you spent hunting DG in Africa? How much time have you spent hunting men? how much time have you spent hunting dangerous game anywhere other than Alaska?

And where did my post refute anything you mention in your rambling above?

As mentioned in an above post, I guess some people think that an african safari hunt is seeing said animal from 500 yards and wacking his ass right then and there.

Ill ask again.. what experience do you have? how many African hunters do you personally know? I'm relatively sure anyone that has hunted Africa, or that would take interest in the article is well aware that the vast majority of hunting in Africa, whether DG or PG, takes place as distances well below 500 yards.. this once again sounds like unsubstantiated, unsupported assumption on your part... more drivel....

The thrill of the big five is putting yourself in his environment another words in the fight somewhere in a range of a 100 to 200ft to get the feel of offing a huge lion and being able to go back home calling yourself a dangerous big game hunter and the feeling and experience you gained from it along with the story.

How do you know what thrill anyone gets or what motivates them on a big five hunt? you can see into the hearts, souls, and minds of other hunters?

Can you substantiate your assumption? Have you hunted the big 5? Is this how you felt? Have you spoken to a significant number of big 5 hunters?

Again, sounds like unsubstantiated, unsupported, drivel....

Or in your case standing off at a distance with your big ol'push feed remington or weatherby in a comfortable setting as your used to while at home that way you can go home with the story of " well ya I shot that lion right out kf that jeep bout let me see, pause, bout 200 yards, man wgat a deal that african hunt was such an adrenaline high that was lol what use it to go all the way to africa if your just going to use your windage meter your bullet drop gage a spotter, you get my drift or

Actually.. most of my hunting rifles are Win 70's..

I have not hunted DG in Africa..

Most of the shots I have taken on game in the US have been at distances of 100 yards or less.. many have been at distances of 25 yards or less.. I can only recall two occasions where I have taken shots on game at distances of greater than 150 yards..

I have on many occasions however been in combat.. and taken shots at distances ranging from a few yards to hundreds of yards.. (hunting African game, DG or not, has zero to do with an adrenaline rush.. at least for me..)..

and while I have never deployed as a sniper.. am a trained sniper (police, not military)..

So once again.. your rambling above is unsubstantiated, unfounded, assumptive, incorrect, drivel....

I might say you probably don't get my drift cause as you say opinions are like assholes and your right everybody's got one.

I would agree with you.. I don't get your drift.. nor does anyone else here from what I can tell..

If you would care to speak in terms of facts and personal experience it could be possible that someone would agree with you on something.. but.. since you insist on speaking in terms of opinion that you have yet to substantiate.. I'm not sure anyone cares...

If you believe your opinion to have value.. why don't you explain to us why your opinion matters.. exactly why are you an expert? and exactly why should we care?

So do as you please and just pick the stuff out of the article you like or dislike but all said and down.

I believe I will... until someone convinces me otherwise..

Don Heath has been in the clutches with life and death situations with the big five and was just trying to clarify some faults of rifles that could infact get a person killed while trying to give the animal a fighting chance to live by shooting him in his up close environment

And many people on this board have also hunted DG in Africa extensively... and clearly disagree with Dons assessment.. these include other PH's with significant amounts of experience.. I would say their opinions, since they are based on fact and personal experience are much more highly valued than yours.. but... that's my opinion

instead of pulling a normal candy ass move and shoot him from the Jeep at distance like most assholes with opinions do. Your so absolutely right, everybody's got an opinion and an asshole. Lol

Who here has said they have shot DG from a jeep at distance?

Again, more unsubstantiated, unfounded, drivel...

 

[mdwest]

Good point. But you must admit snipers essentially do the same thing with their weapon as the PH's did here. By the time they reach the field they know that rifle. And out of curiousity it would be interesting to find out if Remington tests those weapons more before sending them to the military than they do for the public and how many the military find with problems initially and weed out.

Not sure I'm understanding your statement correctly.. but.. if I am reading it right, youre saying that snipers train with their rifles and practice under harsh conditions in a manner similar to what is described with the PH's? (putting the rifles through the paces, shooting fast, making sure they cycle smoothly, are reliable, testing how their rifle works with other equipment, testing themselves to make sure they can operate their rifle and other equipment under stressful conditions, etc..etc..)

I would agree.. that is absolutely the case.. units go through pre-deployment training prior to heading overseas.. and typically will spend a lot of time on the range doing all of the above..

While I have no scientific study to back it up.. I would guess that most US hunters that embark on a DG hunt also spend a lot of time at the range, testing their weapon, testing different loads, testing themselves, etc.. and likely know their rifles very well before they get on a plane.. and submit themselves to similar practices..

Are there exceptions? I am sure.. I'd be willing to bet some of the PH's here could tell some horror stories about "bubba" showing up in Limpopo with a brand new $15K double in .470 NE that they have never fired a round through prior to showing up.. along with their $20K in cool guy safari accessories that they didn't unbox until an hour before they headed to the airport...

But.. I'd also be willing to bet that those guys are the exception.. not the norm.. and are an absolute rarity here on AH... (by virtue of the fact someone has registered here, they are showing that they have an extended interest in Africa hunting, and are intentionally exposing themselves to information and guidance of others.. and are not likely the type of person that pays a ton of money for "stuff" and then expects it to work all the kinks out on its own..)...

Most lifelong hunters I know take their sport very seriously.. they respect the game, themselves, and other hunters too much not to prepare themselves prior to a major hunt..

I've certainly seen my fair share of "1 season" hunters who run to Cabelas in early September, buy a $350 savage package and a box of ammo and $20 in "orange" and then hit the woods a couple of weeks later having no idea what they are doing... only to sell their rifle off in Feb... (I LOVE the bargain cave in February! )... and decide they have now "hunted" and are ready to move on to their next adventure..

But.. I seriously doubt those guys are found with any regularity among this group...

 

[mdwest]

If you'd have read the article and got his drift bout non-functioning rifles in a live or death situation you'd not made your first post defending no content that original author wasn't even talking bout.

more unsubstantiated drivel

Still you haven't read the article in full because if you had you wouldn't be having such a problem with the preconceived BS in your head that you assumed he meant. Can't believe some folks just beat around the bush and say nothing.

more drivel

This mans article jumped right in the middle of problems that arise with firearms to save your yes your life

He did so by presenting opinion.. not by presenting fact.. nothing wrong with opinion.. as long as we all recognize it for what it is..

if your smart enough to realize his concern with unreliable junk when it came down to life or death situations while in the field up close and personal with a lion or such fixing to teach you a lesson if you live you'll never forget.

the issue is unreliable junk is his opinion.. and is an opinion not always shared among several others that are equally experienced...

Respect the mans means as a been there done that experience on dangerous game cause by the way he wrote his article he wasn't playing.

No doubt he has a ton of experience with dangerous game... as do several others... to include many here.. who in fact do not share his opinion...

Disagreement does not equal disrespect..

Your posts however have been incredibly disrespectful.. as noted by the forum owner and others..

The article by Don Heath is a very fine example of what can go down if things go pear shaped as mentioned by another poster.
Very fine article by Don Heath.

An opinion.. and as stated above.. not one shared by everyone..

Oh and your comments to me, like you said everybody's got an asshole and an opinion.

Finally something we agree on!

 

[spike.t]

........thanks for keeping me entertained in the bush .....

 

[Hank2211]

If most of our conversations become like this thread, I'll be looking for a new forum.

 

[Velo Dog]

If most of our conversations become like this thread, I'll be looking for a new forum.

+1.

Sometimes we (I have definitely been guilty at times), sound like little boys arguing over who's sports hero can throw a ball, better than any other little boy's sports hero or little girls, bickering over who has the cutest shoes, and similar such important reasons to fling insults, low grammar, incomplete sentences and misspelled words at each other.

 

[BRICKBURN]

If most of our conversations become like this thread, I'll be looking for a new forum.

Me too. But alas, I can eliminate the offenders.
Poof!

 

[PeteG]

Me too. But alas, I can eliminate the offenders.
Poof!

 

[Hank2211]

+1.

Sometimes we (I have definitely been guilty at times), sound like little boys arguing over who's sports hero can throw a ball, better than any other little boy's sports hero or little girls, bickering over who has the cutest shoes, and similar such important reasons to fling insults, low grammar, incomplete sentences and misspelled words at each other.

I get that Velo Dog, and I'm in the same camp - I've sometimes gone off a bit more than I would, in hindsight, have liked to. But there's a world of difference (in my view) between a spirited discussion, or argument (see latest lion thread), and what we're seeing here. I don't want to censor people because most on this thread seem to do a pretty good job of self-policing. But name-calling, insults, challenging integrity, bad language, etc.? Don't need that.

And you know what? There are other forums where that would go over just fine. So those that want that can go over there, and those that don't, well, they can be here.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

I get that Velo Dog, and I'm in the same camp - I've sometimes gone off a bit more than I would, in hindsight, have liked to. But there's a world of difference (in my view) between a spirited discussion, or argument (see latest lion thread), and what we're seeing here. I don't want to censor people because most on this thread seem to do a pretty good job of self-policing. But name-calling, insults, challenging integrity, bad language, etc.? Don't need that.

And you know what? There are other forums where that would go over just fine. So those that want that can go over there, and those that don't, well, they can be here.

Could not agree more.
@Brian Cameron was banned earlier today, just wanted to give this new member a chance to find out who we are as a community before taking any drastic actions.

 

[Velo Dog]

I get that Velo Dog, and I'm in the same camp - I've sometimes gone off a bit more than I would, in hindsight, have liked to. But there's a world of difference (in my view) between a spirited discussion, or argument (see latest lion thread), and what we're seeing here. I don't want to censor people because most on this thread seem to do a pretty good job of self-policing. But name-calling, insults, challenging integrity, bad language, etc.? Don't need that.

And you know what? There are other forums where that would go over just fine. So those that want that can go over there, and those that don't, well, they can be here.

Definitely +1 with you here Hank2211.

If the other forum has not changed their often rowdy discussion atmosphere over there, I expect they will embrace another kindred spirit, joining their pugilistic forum.

www.AfricaHunting.com is the best forum in the world, at least in part due to the gentlemanly atmosphere nurtured by Jerome and all the rest of you guys that, do a perfect job of repelling the overly-aggressive types.
Some of which, evidently join here not to learn anything or submit anything interesting that someone like myself can learn from.
Instead, it seems they join, simply to kick sand in people's faces, people they know little or nothing about.
That "other" forum is probably just the right outlet for such angry souls.

Kind regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[Clayton]

Time spent with you gentlemen is time well spent.