Reloading can be dangerous and scary if you don't do it right.

[SaintPanzer]

So, mistakes were made. Others will be blamed.

This is going to get a bit long, so have a beer and kick back.

My first mistake is trying to find a load for a powder that doesn't have a published load for it. Second mistake is using bullets for the load that doesn't have a powder listed for it.

So here's the rest of the story.

Cartridge in question is 6.5X54 Mannlicher Schönauer.

There are few published loads for this, and most revolve around IMR. That's probably the way to go. The main problem with that, however, is when powders are scarce, IMR is one of the first ones to go. So go to the back up plan.

I like Vihta Vouri powders. Not as many people use them, and so they tend to be available when others are out. Additionally, it's temperature stable, and burns very clean. I thought N160 would be the way to go, and contacting the tech guys at VV, they confirmed that they had not tested a load, N160 would probably be their first choice for the cartridge.

I'd also like to try Norma powders, because Norma has published loads for their Oryx bullet, but I can't find Norma 204 or MRP (their recommended) anywhere.

But I do have QuickLoad, right?

I also have four bullets I'd like to try. The Oryx 156 grain would be a good hunting bullet, and I can finally find Hornady 160 grain RNSP locally. I also have in my collection 100 Woodleigh 160 grain RNSP and 50 160 grain Protected Point.

I'd really like to get the Oryx and Protected Point bullets working. The RNSP bullets are awesome out to about 100m or so. But muzzle velocity starts at only around 2200fps. And they lose velocity quickly, because they are not very aerodynamic. A spitzer type bullet would retain velocity much better.

Off topic now, but real world example. When I was in Germany, the requirement for Hochwild was minimum 6.5mm caliber, and 2000 joules of energy at 100m. There is a similar requirement in Poland. An RNSP bullet meets the minimum caliber, but only hits around 1950 joules at 100m. A more ballistically efficient bullet could take 2000 joules out to 150 to 200 meters. There's also a great deal of bullet drop, and you're probably not going to reach out and touch a Gams at 300m, even though that's what the rifle was designed to do. So that's why I'd like to get the Oryx or PP round working.

FWIW, conversations with Woodleigh indicate the load for their RNSP and PP bullets should be similar, but that's not important right now.

I do have Quickload. So I started noodling some loads. Now, YES, I know that's only a start. So what I did was map out the pressures for some published loads from the manuals I have, and compared that to proposed N160 loads to try and stay safe. QuickLoad will tell you when you approach max pressure, and I did NOT want to go there. My initial loads "matched" the plotted initial loads for IMR, Norma 204, and Norma MRP. Nothing crazy. Max pressure (CIP) is about 52,000 psi, and everything I plotted was well short of that.

One point on the different bullets: They all have to be loaded to different lengths to fit in the magazine, but no loads were compressed loads. All my "min" loads were around an 80% case load, and max loads were less than 86%. Burn in the barrel was between 92% and 98%. Not fully efficient, but it is a short barrel, and a hotter powder would have other issues, like a faster pressure spike.

All brass was unfired Norma, primers were Federal Match. Bullets were loaded to a length that fit the magazine, and had a great deal of jump to the lands. Maybe not perfect for accuracy, but no chance of jam.
So first up was the Oryx. I started low, and worked up to 37 grains. Got about 2100 fps (QL predicted 2200), and absolutely no pressure signs. I could probably go higher, but I don't think I need to. QL did say I could go higher, but again, not sure I need. May check for accuracy, and tweak. But that works.

Next up was the Hornady. QL also said 37 grains was safe, and I could probably go higher. QL predicted about 2100 fps, but my Labradar says only 1950 or so. No pressure signs. Hornady has a cannelure, but I was beneath it (a little long, but shorter than the book COAL of 3.063). The reason for long is the MS feed ramp likes a long bullet, and loading at the cannelure is a sure way to jam things up when you work the bolt.

Good so far. A little slow, but good.

Now the Woodleigh RNSPs. They look a lot like the Hornadys. There's a bit more lead at the point, and a bit blunter than the Hornady, and unlike the Hornady, there is no cannelure. All bullets were lightly taper crimped.

QL says a good starting safe load was 34.5 grains. The pressure curve roughly matched the Norma MRP. Labradar reported 2200 fps. NO pressure signs. I checked with my 10X loupe, it was not a casual glance. No bolt marks on the base, primer solidly seated, bolt opened easily.

I should have stopped there, right?

Next up was 34.8 grains. Only 0.3 of a grain increase. Maybe I might get a slightly stiff bolt lift if I was getting too much.

Wrong.

Velocity was a nice 2250 or so.

The bolt was stuck tight. Not "oh, this is a little stiff", but pound on it with a piece of wood to get it open tight. Not only was the primer completely gone, the case itself was totally trashed. To the point where I turned a rimless case into a rimmed case. No ruptures, thank God, and the rifle is fine, though perhaps I can say it was newly proofed. But that 0.3 grains was a huge increase.

I stopped there. I never tried the PP. I'm going to dump powder and start over.

I guess my two choices are to just play with the Oryx, which makes sense because they are certainly more available than Woodleighs, and just abandon the PPs, or back off to 33 grains, and stop before 34.2. For the PPs, go a little lighter, maybe start at 32.5 or 33. The PP bullet is about an eighth of an inch longer than the RNSP bullet, so that's a lot of friction in the barrel.

Truth be told, 2200 fps from the carbine barrel with 160 grains of RNSP should be effective on most things in North America. and I have no plans to do a WDM Bell and go elephant hunting with it. I am concerned about using 270 grain Woodleighs in my 9.5X57, but I have about 300 Hornady bullets to play with first.

The bottom line, if you've made it this far, is 0.3 grains can make a huge difference, even if it's well within what QuickLoad predicts.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

 

[BlueFlyer]

The bottom line, if you've made it this far, is 0.3 grains can make a huge difference, even if it's well within what QuickLoad predicts.

I doubt that 0.3gn is the root cause of the issue. There is something else going on?
How did you measure the powder?
Were all the cases trimmed to length?
Did you check clearance to the lands?

 

[GuttormG]

Are you sure you used N160?
It shouldnt almost not be possible to get enough of it the case to get in trouble.

 

[flatwater bill]

@BlueFlyer and @GuttormG I'm with you fellas........I think there is something else....a lotta change for 0.3 grains. I have a lot of experience with this cartridge in a Steyr Mann. I usually load 140 grainers to get up a little speed outta the stubby bbl (40 grains 4350 driving it) but would love to try Oryx 156's which should be about the best bullet for the gun. Just haven't got there yet. Ya, I think there is an X factor that you may not have found, or interpreted incorrectly. Keep us posted. Good luck. Don't ruin a great rifle........FWB

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Caution in reloading is important! I am pleased you are not injured.
We to include me must not forget that;

• Quickload is a tool to “guide” us. It is very useful but those loading manuals that advise to start at 10% below maximum loads can't be all wrong...
• Once pressure is a maximum safe for the cartridge, small changes (variables) can cause it to rise exponentially!
• Variables include but are not limited to:
  • Internal case capacity – Reduce this and pressures rise. Case capacity varies between manufactures, and can vary in case with the same headstamp.
  • Bullet seating length – Seating bullets deeper in cartridge cases reduces case capacity. See above!
  • Bullet construction, i.e. jacket thickness, hardness of lead core, and so on resulting in increased friction as it is swaged into the lands of the rifling.
  • Neck thickness and neck tension can cause excessive friction with a bullet surrounded by case neck pushed tightly into the chamber.

Loading cartridges can be similar to high tech electronic systems which can be affected by “ambiguity groups” of components. Those are when two, three, or more components in a circuit are each just a hair (very small deviance) out of design specifications. Individually, those tiny deviances do not affect the output of the circuit. But combined the out of spec deviances cause problems in the overall performance of the equipment that are not easily traceable to the components of even the circuit within the equipment.

Consider the above when analyzing what when wrong with one’s reloaded cartridges. Sometimes the problem(s) may have been caused by a combination of factors.

Be safe…

 

[Rolly]

Many years ago (like 50 years) I had a box of bullets from a reliable manufacturer that was clearly labeled 7mm and .284 diameter. I loaded them for a friends 7mm Remington Mag and after the first shot, the bolt needed to be pounded open with a 2x4. It was stuck tight! I was confident in the powder and my loading techniques. Then I measured the bullet diameters. Rather than .284 as the box was marked-they measured .294. It has never happened to me before or since but you might check your bullet diameters to make sure they are the correct diameter. I tossed the bullets and never again used bullets from that supplier.

 

[Roosterlund]

Caution in reloading is important! I am pleased you are not injured.
We to include me must not forget that;

• Quickload is a tool to “guide” us. It is very useful but those loading manuals that advise to start at 10% below maximum loads can't be all wrong...
• Once pressure is a maximum safe for the cartridge, small changes (variables) can cause it to rise exponentially!
• Variables include but are not limited to:
  • Internal case capacity – Reduce this and pressures rise. Case capacity varies between manufactures, and can vary in case with the same headstamp.
  • Bullet seating length – Seating bullets deeper in cartridge cases reduces case capacity. See above!
  • Bullet construction, i.e. jacket thickness, hardness of lead core, and so on resulting in increased friction as it is swaged into the lands of the rifling.
  • Neck thickness and neck tension can cause excessive friction with a bullet surrounded by case neck pushed tightly into the chamber.

Loading cartridges can be similar to high tech electronic systems which can be affected by “ambiguity groups” of components. Those are when two, three, or more components in a circuit are each just a hair (very small deviance) out of design specifications. Individually, those tiny deviances do not affect the output of the circuit. But combined the out of spec deviances cause problems in the overall performance of the equipment that are not easily traceable to the components of even the circuit within the equipment.

Consider the above when analyzing what when wrong with one’s reloaded cartridges. Sometimes the problem(s) may have been caused by a combination of factors.

Be safe…

I agree. Even most published max loads are on the light side of true maximum. If you look at older reloading manuals from the sixties and seventies max loads can be higher by 3-4 grains depending on cartridge. I was told that pressure instruments can read pressure more accurately now or there are a lot of companies making weaker actions.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Thank you for the replies, they are helpful. To answer some questions:
Yes, I'm sure I used N-160. Right now, it is the only powder on my shelf, so it would be difficult to confuse it. Additionally, it was the same "batch" for all the other rounds. No mistake there.

Powder was measured on my beam balance, one round at a time.

All cases trimmed to length before I started, using my Forster trimmer. All were measured after trimming, all were consistent and at the "Trim To Length" dimension in the manual.

All cases were new, never fired Norma.

Yes, clearance to the lands was checked. In fact, in checking clearance to the lands it was learned that there is so much "jump" in these barrels (one M1903 was made in 1921, the other in 1939) that the bullet will exit the case by about 2mm before even touching the lands. In other words, it is impossible to load a case to "jam", because there's no case left. Loading to 3.047 is both shorter than max COAL of 3.063 and carries with it about .375 inches between ogive and lands. That's a rough estimate, because when I used the Hornady tool to measure, the bullets were literally out of the case before touching anything.

Yes, QL is just a guide. The curious thing is the pressure curves presented matched others. Starting at well below maximum is where I thought I was. It was certainly the case for the other bullets used.

Case capacity could have been an issue. All were Norma, from the same batch. It is possible that one of the cases had an unnoticed manufacturing flaw. Only way to check that would have been to measure water capacity of each case before using. I would need a new scale to do that, because my beam scale does not have a "flat" base to put the case on, and the case would be too tall and would interfere with the "hanger" for the powder scoop/measure part. Not saying no, just that I'd need a different type of scale.

All bullets loaded to the same depth. See above on measuring to the lands, measured COAL, etc. FWIW, I ran the QL data which includes COAL, which is supposed to adjust for bullet depth. I ran the calculations afterwards using various depths just to see how far I would have had to insert the bullet for QL to identify problems. I don't think I hit to within 15% of max pressure until I "pushed it in" (i.e. shortened COAL) to less that COAL of 2.75 or so.

Jacket thickness is a good question. I'm wondering it both the thickness on Woodleighs is much thicker than the Hornadys, and much harder as well. That's tough to measure. It also makes me wonder if the bullet database in QL does not include hardness. I did check other bullet data (i.e. length, caliber, etc.) and that seemed to match the bullet I held in my hand, but one never knows.

Neck tension is the other variable. Again, Norma cases, so assuming quality control was correct, they started right. I did use a graphite bullet lube, and case tension was set by my CHD4 taper crimp die. The same die setting was used on all the rounds (progressive press, so it was never taken out), but that is something to look at again.

It's possible Woodleigh slipped a "wrong" diameter into the box, but I highly doubt it. I did check a random sample before I started with my micrometer, and all measured in right at .264. That or Starret has started to lie to me. There is a nasty rumor going around that MS barrels are "loose", which is why Hornady makes/made a .268 round for Carcanos, but I don't think that's an issue here, and even if it were, the barrel would be "looser" rather than tighter.

At this point, I think I hit max load on the first round, and the "exponential" increase Mark mentioned is what happened. The good velocity of 2220 or so should have been the clue. When I think about it, I increased by 0.3 grains, but that represents just under a 1% increase in powder. It was perhaps too large of a step. What I should do is just go back to playing with the Oryx rounds, as they should be effective on most of the thin-skinned game I'm likely to encounter, they are well available, etc. But just to satisfy my curiosity, I may well back off again with the Woodleighs and see. 160 grains moving at 2200 out of the muzzle will be extremely effective deer medicine within about 200 yards, and perhaps further. I'm not sure at all about the Woodleigh PPs, I'm going to have to back off a lot on those.

 

[Rare Breed]

First excellent post! b. Secon, it reminds us of two things:1. QL which I use is a great starting point.2. Even small changes in grains can have a dramatic impact. I have learned over time I far trust my big bore reloads over any factory loaded ammo given how meticulous I am with each and every cartridge. I easily take an hour to reload 20 rounds. Given my love for DG I bet my life on them

 

[Roosterlund]

I’m thinking it had to be brass or off size bullet diameter. I would bet you could load that cartridge to a compact over maximum load and see a flattened primer and some bolt marks on brass but still have brass intact. I see that N160 is very close to IMR 4831 and 37 grains is not a lot of powder.

 

[fourfive8]

I’ll go with the two posts about likely “something else.” That small an increase in charge will not cause such a pressure spike. A significant increase in charge by mistake certainly could though. I doubt bullet contact or into lands would increase pressure that much. My guess and initial gut feeling is that the case was not trimmed to correct length. That can increase pressure significantly!!… where the case mouth is swaged/crimped into the bullet upon chambering thus locking the bullet in place in the chamber.

 

[SaintPanzer]

I’ll go with the two posts about likely “something else.” That small an increase in charge will not cause such a pressure spike. A significant increase in charge by mistake certainly could though. I doubt bullet contact or into lands would increase pressure that much. My guess and initial gut feeling is that the case was not trimmed to correct length. That can increase pressure significantly!!… where the case mouth is swaged/crimped into the bullet upon chambering thus locking the bullet in place in the chamber.

I 100% agree with your thesis that an untrimmed case could cause overpressure. That's why I measured every one out of the bag, noted that they were below max length, but above minimum length, so I trimmed every one for consistency, and measured every one.

The one thing I am sure of is they were all trimmed to proper length.

 

[Frederik]

I would venture to say that it was a double charge or getting distracted and adding extra powder to already loaded case with powder.

Wrong larger diameter bullet will definitely cause more damage to the barrel and would have gotten stuck in the bullet seating DIE.
Extra 0.3gr of powder even if it was Fast burning Pistol Powder would not have caused such damage to the case.

 

[SaintPanzer]

I would venture to say that it was a double charge or getting distracted and adding extra powder to already loaded case with powder.

Wrong larger diameter bullet will definitely cause more damage to the barrel and would have gotten stuck in the bullet seating DIE.
Extra 0.3gr of powder even if it was Fast burning Pistol Powder would not have caused such damage to the case.

The problem with a double charge is it would have over-filled the case. The single was at 82%.

I'm trying to think of what else might have been out. I keep going back to the lesser charge was already at a higher velocity than expected. I think 34.5 was the max safe load, and 34.8 was well over and beyond. Maybe I'll try 34.0, 34.2, and 34.4 next week.

 

[GuttormG]

Something is way off. 82% filling with N160 will not give high pressure. It would have given bad combination and soot.

I will post load data in a bit, just need to get to the scanner.

 

[GuttormG]

From this German manual;

 

[BlueFlyer]

The problem with a double charge is it would have over-filled the case. The single was at 82%.

Norma brass is the best quality brass you can buy. If everything is measuring in spec then I just wonder if something had fallen into the case before loading that took it from 82% to 100+%.
Trouble is that you will never know

 

[MS 9x56]

So many misinformed assumptions were made in the OP’s post that the outcome was almost assured. My best advise would be to stick with commercial ammo as reloading is not a safe hobby for you.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

So many misinformed assumptions were made in the OP’s post that the outcome was almost assured. My best advise would be to stick with commercial ammo as reloading is not a safe hobby for you.

Wow! That's pretty harsh, isn't it? I thank @SaintPanzer for sharing. It's a great example of WHY we need ot be very careful when reloading.

@SaintPanzer has shared a negative experiance with all rather than hiding it. He learned via the sticky bolt school of reloading. Who hasn't? That's why we start 10% below maximum and work our way up. Sometimes, pressures rise quickly to the point a bolt is hard to open BEFORE reaching the published max load.

Once again, "Let's be careful out there" when hunting, shooting, and especially when loading ammunition!

 

[GuttormG]

That is a bit "over the top", but a couple of steps back, forget QL and re-read some books maybee?