Reduced Load Questions

[tarbe]

I guess I managed to miss this thread somehow.

I won't recommend specific reduced loads or fillers any longer...too controversial!!

I will not claim to be an "expert", but I have been playing with everything from basement gallery loads in 7Mag and 458 Win to mid-range loads for 22 Hornet to 416 Rigby over the past 43 years.

I've used natural and synthetics as fillers when I felt they were needed. I have used fillers in straight-walled and bottle-necked cartridges, as different as 7mm Rem Mag and 45-70 & .458 Winchester.

I've used Bullseye, Titegroup, Unique, Green Dot, Red Dot, SR 4756, SR4759, AA5744, Trailboss (only just very recently), IMR 4227, IMR 4198 and probably a few others.

I suspect more than a few of the mishaps that have been discussed over the years (ie blown primers or worse) were actually caused by double-charges or a blocked bore...but we humans always want to blame problems on some mysterious phenomenon...not our mistakes! I only say this because I have loaded so many rounds of gallery to mid-range loads that should have blown me up if everything that is said about such loads is true.

I am not saying Secondary Explosion Effect and similar type events are impossible. I do avoid lighter charges of slow burning powder in over-bore capacity cartridges...partly because of the theory (I read about it in my infancy and old habits are hard to break), but also because such loads don't really make sense!

I will say that I have loaded many cartridges with dacron filler. It flies out the muzzle and doesn't appear to melt or start on fire. I've used cotton and tp. I have not used curtain backing rod. I have never noticed any sort of accuracy issue using fillers...except to say that they generally improve accuracy and consistency.

Here is a recent example (August of this year)...identical loads except one included a 2 grain Dacron filler (I guess I just violated my rule!).

No filler: Extreme spread 207 fps; Standard Deviation 81
Filler: Extreme spread 40 fps; Standard Deviation 15

This was in a straight-walled 45 caliber rifle. Only difference was 2gr of Dacron.

My best advice to anyone playing with seriously reduced loads is to triple-check your powder charges to make absolutely certain you don't have any multiple charges!

Use a powder with an appropriate burning rate, preferably one with a high bulk density. And don't be afraid to use magnum primers to help ensure those lighter but non-filler loads light off.

Unique is an amazingly useful and versatile powder for really light loads and I have never used a filler with it (going down to 10 grains of it in a case that will hold 70). I have also used as little as 2gr of Bullseye in the 7Mag...but with an over-powder wad.

Titegroup is similar in terms of usefulness and position insensitivity, in my experience.

Just be very careful with these fast powders. You CAN make a bomb out of your rifle with them!

 

[Bert the Turtle]

I've had very good luck with reduced loads in both 404 and 375.

For my 404 I purchased a reducing die from Corbins and turned the 300grain 0.429 XTP into a 300grain 0.423 XTP. It is blunt and depending on free bore of your rifle it may have to be seated rather deep but it works and shoots fine. Over a starting load of Trail Boss it is pretty much like shooting a 22 or perhaps and air rifle. Work up the velocity with Trail Boss until that is maxed out then proceed to Accurate 5744 and you can get a wide range of loads. Case life is excellent using a Lee collet die; I annealed the necks after maybe 5 loadings just because.

The 375 is even easier. Sierra makes a 200g bullet intended for the 375 Winchester. Per Sierra, the minimum effective impact velocity for hunting with that bullet is 1600fps. I won't say what the load is, but proper minimum velocity can be achieved with a safe amount of Trail Boss.

Recently anyway, I've been enjoying shooting reduced loads in big rifles more than standard loads of equal recoil in a 30 cal.

 

[Ray B]

For those using the 404 J, I have found a cheap (relatively) and easy alternative for obtaining cast bullets for reduced loads. I purchased an RCBS sizer die .423" for the Lube-A-Matic. Now I purchase bullets from Oregon Trail Bullets designed for the .44-40. they are .427" and are the OT proprietary blend. One pass through the die and I have a 200 grain hard cast bullet that is great for informal shooting. So far the load has been with TrailBoss but I expect to expand to SR4759. No filler is expected to be needed.

 

[7x57Joe]

For those using the 404 J, I have found a cheap (relatively) and easy alternative for obtaining cast bullets for reduced loads. I purchased an RCBS sizer die .423" for the Lube-A-Matic. Now I purchase bullets from Oregon Trail Bullets designed for the .44-40. they are .427" and are the OT proprietary blend. One pass through the die and I have a 200 grain hard cast bullet that is great for informal shooting. So far the load has been with TrailBoss but I expect to expand to SR4759. No filler is expected to be needed.

I've found no filler necessary with SR-4759 in the .30'06 and it is a fine reduced load powder. However, unless you have a supply of it I wouldn't bother with it. Production was suspended about 2 years ago. What a bummer!

 

[tarbe]

I've found no filler necessary with SR-4759 in the .30'06 and it is a fine reduced load powder. However, unless you have a supply of it I wouldn't bother with it. Production was suspended about 2 years ago. What a bummer!

Bummer for sure! As soon as I hear the bad news, I bought 8 pounds. Wish I had bought 16!

5744 does seem to be a pretty darn good substitute...if a little more expensive.

 

[Dr Ray]

Gents,

As I anticipate building up my wife's recoil tolerance so that she can move up to either my .375 for .404J project that is just getting started, I want her to start with some reduced loads. In the past working with my boys in medium bore calibers, I just chose really light for caliber bullets and used starting loads. This resulted in very easy recoil for them to handle.

But even say a 250gr bullet in a .375 at starting level powder loads results in appreciable recoil. For comparison, lets say a 250gr bullet at a leisurely 2600fps is going to at least be comparable if not more than a 30-06 165gr load at 2800fps in recoil.

The simple solution is of course to slow the bullet down more via less powder. But:

1) At some point there's enough space in the case that inconsistent ignition will start to occur.

2) From what I've read going one step further, hang fires can also happen in reduced loads.

3) Worst case scenario someone once told me (though I'm not sure I'm buying it), is that there's enough air inside the case to actually make what would seem like a safe load into an explosive one.

So for those if you with more experience than me with loading down, please impart any wisdom you may have.

I would suggest caution if you go below recommend minimum loads. The primer flash may run all over the powder at the same time resulting in an explosion that may tear the rifle apart along with hands. This may happen when the rifle is pointed downwards or upwards at a great angle.

Suggest you get a cheap small caliber rifle such as a 243 or maybe a bit bigger and get her confidence up. After she can handle mild recoiling rifles then light loads in bigger calibers until she has confidence and can handle the recoil.

 

[7x57Joe]

Hodgdon states you can reduce H-4895 by 60% of top load.

 

[GuttormG]

"Lee modern reloading" has a quite good chapter on reduced loads, including how to choose suitable powders and calculate such loads.

 

[Marcos Rodriguez]

Gents,

As I anticipate building up my wife's recoil tolerance so that she can move up to either my .375 for .404J project that is just getting started, I want her to start with some reduced loads. In the past working with my boys in medium bore calibers, I just chose really light for caliber bullets and used starting loads. This resulted in very easy recoil for them to handle.

But even say a 250gr bullet in a .375 at starting level powder loads results in appreciable recoil. For comparison, lets say a 250gr bullet at a leisurely 2600fps is going to at least be comparable if not more than a 30-06 165gr load at 2800fps in recoil.

The simple solution is of course to slow the bullet down more via less powder. But:

1) At some point there's enough space in the case that inconsistent ignition will start to occur.

2) From what I've read going one step further, hang fires can also happen in reduced loads.

3) Worst case scenario someone once told me (though I'm not sure I'm buying it), is that there's enough air inside the case to actually make what would seem like a safe load into an explosive one.

So for those if you with more experience than me with loading down, please impart any wisdom you may have.

Phil.... i don´t know much about the 375, and less about the .404....
So, I can´t serve you this time! (I don´t know if i serve you aniway in another time hahaha)
But, all I can say, is this:
Try to find the way to use a powder with slower burning rate than the usuall you use in both calibers
As an example!!! If I would to pull a bullet in my 308 slowest than the same bullet (IE: a 180 gn bullet, usually at 2400 fps but I want a softer shot, anyway, supose.... 2000 fps) and I use R15 (in example) the risk of charge wit a less amount of R15 (because the empty space in the case) are great...
Better I use R19... full the case, and I can let the bullet the speed I want
No risk !!!
I hope it can be of some use to you!!!
greetings!

 

[Marcos Rodriguez]

And some members said thath, buit I remind this...
AVOID the fillers!!!
There are more dangerous than the people thing

 

[C.W. Richter]

It's the larger cases (incl. the 375) where this can be a problem. Simply don't go below book (reloading manuals or online mfr website) minimum and you should be fine. I recall being given stern warnings about this w/ the .338 A-Sq (later 338-378 Wby,) essentially a 460 Wby necked down to 338 w/ 105 gr powder capacity. I heeded that advice!

 

[C.W. Richter]

If you would like some specific mfr light loads, i'd be happy to post later...I've always considered Rem's basic factory ammo as "light loads." LOL All kidding aside, my Son got a nice buff w/ Rem 270 SPs (frontal brain shot) at 80ish yards. Using an additional slip-on recoil pad, shooting shirts w/ padding, shooting on cooler days, etc. can work wonders mitigating recoil. I left the slip-on recoil pad on when the kids were young.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Six year old thread. I would hope the OP has it figured out by now.

 

[C.W. Richter]

somebody pls check on him!!

 

[Marcos Rodriguez]

Six year old thread. I would hope the OP has it figured out by now.

WOW.... Sorry! My fault!!!
I never see the date .... I revive the dead..
My apologizes....