Recommend a double 500 NE?

[Racer00]

ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT HANDLOADING FOR A DOUBLE IS A DIFFERENT CAN OF WORMS THAN A BOLT GUN!!!

Sir, can you please explain the differences in handloading for a double vs a bolt rifle. I have begun loading for my 470 Merkel. I have had good results, but want to be sure I am not missing anything.
Thank you
Jody

 

[KJE81]

Sir, can you please explain the differences in handloading for a double vs a bolt rifle. I have begun loading for my 470 Merkel. I have had good results, but want to be sure I am not missing anything.
Thank you
Jody

I would guess that he is refering to the problems with keeping the regulation between the barrels when changing the amount of gunpowder, the type or weight of bullets, maker and lot of cases, type of powder, type of primers and so on. Any change in any of these variables can very well change the point of impact from each of the barrels meaning that the bullets from the second barrel might no longer be on the same distance from the first.

This quirk of double rifles aswell as the need to keep the timing between the shots from barrel one and barrel two is the main reasons that I have decided to move away from double rifles to bolt action rifles after having three double rifles.

 

[Rare Breed]

Sir, can you please explain the differences in handloading for a double vs a bolt rifle. I have begun loading for my 470 Merkel. I have had good results, but want to be sure I am not missing anything.
Thank you
Jody

I can help here…since you load for your 470 Merkel DR which I missed you already know to get lighter recoil at your targeted FPS you will use a powder that requires a filler. I buy all my #2 fillers at Trader Keith’s and this step is second nature to me but people who have never done this before sometimes have trouble. Also regulating a DR can be so problematic along with the need to order a Lee 470 or 500 crimping tool. To me with my 7 DRs and years of reloading for them the above is best practice for me. Since you already shoot a double I am sure you know the above as well as the importance for weight matching caliber along with correct LOP

Good luck!!!!

 

[AZDAVE]

With most bolt guns you start about 10% below max listed charge and work your way up till you see pressure signs. Then start 10% below the max and work up in .2gr increments till you find the most accurate load for that rifle. That is the basic load development ladder. If you are looking at advanced techniques then a call is more in order to discuss.

With doubles you are looking to develop a load that match’s the regulation of the rifle. If you are lucky enough to have a rifle that you know what the factory load the rifle was regulated with you are many steps ahead. First recommendation is get the “shooting British double rifles” written by Graham Wright and read it cover to cover several times.

When you are starting from scratch and have no idea what it was originally regulated with. Look at the basic normal load speed that factory ammo is listed with. Then select a bullet weight that matches factory loads and use one of the slower burn rate powders listed in Grahm’s book or reloading manual and start 10-12% below and shoot groups of 4 shots (two from each barrel) when you get a 3 in group at 50 meters or yards you are in the ball park.

With doubles you aren’t looking for the fastest but what regulates. It can be a very rewarding but also frustrating procedure.

It also helps to understand the dynamics of what a double does in the firing sequence, from a pure physical perspective. Grahm’s book explains it very well.

 

[VertigoBE]

I would recommend a used Heym.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Sir, can you please explain the differences in handloading for a double vs a bolt rifle. I have begun loading for my 470 Merkel. I have had good results, but want to be sure I am not missing anything.
Thank you
Jody

I have a friend who owns a 1972 built Auguste Francotte sidelock ejector in .458 Winchester Magnum that was regulated for Winchester Super Speed factory ammunition. Now, Winchester factory ammunition for the .458 Winchester Magnum was loaded to a velocity of 2040 FPS starting from 1969 onwards. This was not adequate for frontal brain shots on big African bull elephants. So we decided to hand load some rounds to the pre 1969 specs for Winchester’s factory loads in .458 Winchester Magnum (2130 FPS).

When we hand loaded some rounds to 2130 FPS for use in the Auguste Francotte double rifle, we were quite disheartened to see the rifle’s barrels crossfire. At 2040 FPS, we were getting tight groups out to 50 yards.

Yeah, double rifles are extremely picky eaters. Even pickier than children.

 

[Racer00]

Thank you all for your replies. I do have Mr. Wright's book and have read it thoroughly. From your information, I believe I am on the right path. I have been in contact with Merkel (although, they weren't too specific) about factory regulating loads. I have managed to put together a load that may need a little refinement to be perfect, but is giving me more than acceptable accuracy at 50 yds from my rifle. I am currently using R15.5 with Trader Keith foam wads and did acquire a Lee FCD for my loading bench. I will continue forward on my current path and refine my load and shooting.
Just wanted to be certain I hadn't missed any steps along the path to success.
Thank you again for all your advice (although it's the least all you enablers can do for convincing me I couldn't live another day without a double in my possession) All in jest!!!
This website is priceless and the wealth of information is so helpful.
See you all in Nashville soon
Jody

 

[Beck]

I would guess that he is refering to the problems with keeping the regulation between the barrels when changing the amount of gunpowder, the type or weight of bullets, maker and lot of cases, type of powder, type of primers and so on. Any change in any of these variables can very well change the point of impact from each of the barrels meaning that the bullets from the second barrel might no longer be on the same distance from the first.

This quirk of double rifles aswell as the need to keep the timing between the shots from barrel one and barrel two is the main reasons that I have decided to move away from double rifles to bolt action rifles after having three double rifles.

All correct. I would love to shot Barnes TSX's out of my double, but I can't get them to regulate - I don't even try to hand load for my double anymore

 

[Beck]

I have a friend who owns a 1972 built Auguste Francotte sidelock ejector in .458 Winchester Magnum that was regulated for Winchester Super Speed factory ammunition. Now, Winchester factory ammunition for the .458 Winchester Magnum was loaded to a velocity of 2040 FPS starting from 1969 onwards. This was not adequate for frontal brain shots on big African bull elephants. So we decided to hand load some rounds to the pre 1969 specs for Winchester’s factory loads in .458 Winchester Magnum (2130 FPS).

When we hand loaded some rounds to 2130 FPS for use in the Auguste Francotte double rifle, we were quite disheartened to see the rifle’s barrels crossfire. At 2040 FPS, we were getting tight groups out to 50 yards.

Yeah, double rifles are extremely picky eaters. Even pickier than children.

From the man the myth the legend

 

[Hunter-Habib]

From the man the myth the legend

I feel so embarrassed. I’m just your average everyday hunter & gun geek.

 

[Beck]

I feel so embarrassed. I’m just your average everyday hunter & gun geek.

Yea, you're just a regular everyday hunter, except that part of your life when you were contracted to hunt/kill man eating tigers!

 

[Fixfire]

Yea, you're just a regular everyday hunter, except that part of your life when you were contracted to hunt/kill man eating tigers!

……and you have a book written about you!!!

 

[ftrovato]

I was in the same position as you a few years ago. I did my online searching and found a used like new Heym 89B for a little more than you're looking to spend. I think it was worth the extra 5k over your budget. With that, ammo & reloading components for the 500 NE are readily available through sites like https://ammoseek.com. However I do believe with reloading components being readily available it's worth the investment! This then gives you the option to shot reduced powder charges which are much more pleasant to practice with! (Always stay in powder manufactures minimum power charge recommendations). Then you can just work up a hunting load when needed. I think you will find that this is any easy process. All that you're trying to do is match the bullet velocity that the rifle was regulated for. So if you have access to a chronograph you can do that in short order. Have fun I love my 500. I enjoy shooting it with light loads and really enjoyed hunting with it this last fall in Africa!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

……and you have a book written about you!!!

So do far greater men. But thank you so much. My hunting skills can optimistically be described as “Fair” at best.

 

[Nhoro]

I would recommend a used Heym.

Good advice. I think Heym are the best gun for the money. I would also look at 470 calibre. But maybe shoot you 416 for a while. A 500 nitro is heavy to carry but it is fun to shoot.

 

[rafter3]

I have a Merkel 160 AE sidelock in .500 Nitro seems to be an excellent gun, beautiful engraving and I see good and bad about Merkel but they can't be that bad. Built in Germany and they have been building guns since the late 1800s.

 

[Teampowpow]

The step into the double world can be daunting. I would first suggest going to sci or dsc and talking to hyem, krieghoff, chapuis, and merkel. I you can find someone close to you that has a double try and get an opportunity to shoot one. ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT HANDLOADING FOR A DOUBLE IS A DIFFERENT CAN OF WORMS THAN A BOLT GUN!!!
Also have a solid understanding of the range limitations of a double and have the discipline to walk away from shots that outside your comfort sone that would be a chip shot with a bolt gun.

 

[Teampowpow]

The step into the double world can be daunting. I would first suggest going to sci or dsc and talking to hyem, krieghoff, chapuis, and merkel. I you can find someone close to you that has a double try and get an opportunity to shoot one. ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT HANDLOADING FOR A DOUBLE IS A DIFFERENT CAN OF WORMS THAN A BOLT GUN!!!
Also have a solid understanding of the range limitations of a double and have the discipline to walk away from shots that outside your comfort sone that would be a chip shot with a bolt gun.

I’m learning that as far as the reloading, and yes I imagine shots should be considered very close I imagine definitely within 100 yards but more realistically inside 50, I have no experience in this world of guns or hunting so I can only base off what I watch and learn from the experienced…
There’s the DCS convention in Atlanta this weekend and Im considering attending, I’m not sure what’s there or what to expect tho as far as dealers and such goes…

 

[IvW]

I have used the Barnes 300gr TSX in RSA, nothing walked away or needed a second shot. I couldn’t find the 270 grainTSX bullet but in the UK would have happily used it on everything. The 250 grain TTSX is also worth a look if you’re after PG. The PPU stuff is cheap to practice with but I personally wouldn’t use it on game of any size, especially on a trip!

In the UK???

How exactly did you get these different weights to regulate in your double rifle?
What make is it??

 

[IvW]

New here to AH, been behind the lines and just observing and researching some, seeing how this forum works and its content. Everyone seems very nice and experienced I must say and I’m glad to be here with you all!
Living in North Carolina I hunt a lot, travel west for mostly whitetail and have some experience in Colorado, nothing crazy but I’m a hunter to say the least… my buddy has been to Africa twice now and, well guess I’m going on this third trip for buff and whatever else that could possible be allowed as an extra… I just recently acquired a ruger 77 rsm 416 Rigby, in fact it will be here tomorrow along with some ammunition. I hunt with a few 10 gauge shotguns all season normally for my goose and open water duck hunting, deer drives and such. I have several large caliber AR and other rifles so I’d like to think I’m not a wimp when it comes to recoil…
Been considering a double rifle also, I mean why not? I originally was thinking 505 Gibbs, but….. now I’m more leaning towards the 500NE.

My question,

what is available and more built in quality that would be around the 15k mark or less? I’ve seen Rizinni, Sabatti, Merkel and I have zero idea what I’m looking for, what would need to be done after the purchase if factory new such as regiment, or if guns at this price point are just not recommended at all? This is a whole another animal of the firearm world…. Any other recommendations are quite welcome!

What are you planning to hunt with a double rifle?

500 NE is for elephant or PH backup or for experienced many times hunted Africa with double rifle hunters....

Having never hunted Africa you may be better off with a 375 H&H flanged magnum or a 450/400 3" NE or even 500416 3 1/4 NE.......at most a 470 NE......

From a practical useability point of view anyway ....

Heym or Krieghoff.....