Recoil aversion

[R.M.C.]

I think it's got a lot to do with bullet construction being so good these days that there's rarely a need for the real big magnums as has already been mentioned. I know for a fact that my 30.06 was transformed into a death ray over night by switching from Remington core lokt bullets to federal trophy bonded tips. The difference on really big wild hogs and a bull elk were obvious to me.
With that said I totally agree with the statements made about this generation. While I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule they seem pretty soft and squishy to me and I doubt many of them would attempt to acclimate them selves to any real recoil before switching to a smaller caliber. Just my two cents lol

 

[mdwest]

It is true but I don’t know the answer. It may be rude of me but when I see a 6.5 Creedmore with a muzzle break I just laugh.

the creedmores with the brakes dont bother me nearly as much as the guys at the range with the $4500 AR gucci guns in 556 with the muzzle brakes.. that try to tell you that the reduction in recoil is what makes the gun more accurate..

Makes me crazy to go to the range and have one of those guys planted firmly on either side of me, blowing my ear pro off my head with every shot...

while they burn through 500 rounds of cheap russian steel cased 55gr ammo... all in the name of "accuracy".. .lol..

 

[R.M.C.]

I have to say the small bores with brakes are laughable. My buddy put a brake on his 30.06 and I give him shit about it every time he pulls it out. Then I hold my hands over my ears lol

 

[Red Leg]

I tend to agree with @Justbryan that there is some truth to the observation that a lot fewer people grow up hunting with a shotgun these days. If a hunter fires a 7.5 lb 12 bore shooting 2 3/4 inch 1 1/4 ounce loads (pretty common pheasant load) he is managing 32 foot lbs of recoil. A 225 gr bullet from a .338 Win Mg generates 30.2 foot pounds from a 9 lb rifle. Those shotgun recoil levels only go up if he is in a duck blind firing 3 inch shells. Even a 12 bore load for a sporting clays range such 1 1/8 ounces from the same shotgun will generate 23 lbs of recoil. Mid-bore rifles seem pretty tame with those experiences. However, for the new African hunter who has only experienced the 5.56 or perhaps a .270 hunting whitetail, even the .300 Win Mag will likely catch his attention.

 

[Hogpatrol]

I tend to agree with @Justbryan that there is some truth to the observation that a lot fewer people grow up hunting with a shotgun these days. If a hunter fires a 7.5 lb 12 bore shooting 2 3/4 inch 1 1/4 ounce loads (pretty common pheasant load) he is managing 32 foot lbs of recoil. A 225 gr bullet from a .338 Win Mg generates 30.2 foot pounds from a 9 lb rifle. Those shotgun recoil levels only go up if he is in a duck blind firing 3 inch shells. Even a 12 bore load for a sporting clays range such 1 1/8 ounces from the same shotgun will generate 23 lbs of recoil. Mid-bore rifles seem pretty tame with those experiences. However, for the new African hunter who has only experienced the 5.56 or perhaps a .270 hunting whitetail, even the .300 Win Mag will likely catch his attention.

I bought a 12 gauge slug gun for deer. After one season of getting my attention, I sold it and bought a 20 and that STILL gets my attention.

 

[Whacker]

I bought a 12 gauge slug gun for deer. After one season of getting my attention, I sold it and bought a 20 and that STILL gets my attention.

12 ga can have some pretty stout recoil. I have a lightweight Remington 870 turkey gun in 3.5” that I put together with a thumbhole stock that weighs in around 7lbs even loaded. Shooting at a turkey I don’t mind it at all but to just go out and punch paper it just isn’t fun to shoot. Not a great recoil pad on it so it rather hurts after the third shot or so. I knew when I put it together it would have a lot of recoil being so light but that was the idea...didn’t wanna drag over 10lbs around all day through the hills here chasing gobblers. It’s prob my favorite shotgun.

 

[Randy F]

Just prior to the whitetail opener here I was at the range putting a few rounds through my 30.06. There were quite a few others there doing the same. What caught my attention, and I guess surprised me some, was overhearing some of them talk about sighting in or "checking their sights" because they hadn't touched their rifle since putting it away the year before.
One poor young fellow was struggling a little and still lining up for his shot as they rest were done and waiting on him to go down range to check their targets. Kudos to him for taking his time but of course all eyes were on him. When it finally time for him to pull the trigger, the convulsion he went through when the gun did NOT go off was extremely humiliating for him. His safety was still on but wow, you would swear he just lit off a silent cannon. He was shooting a .270 and terrified of it. Of course there was laughter and snide comments. He was so embarrassed that he just gave it up and started packing it up.

While the rest went done range I approached him and asked if I could help. The poor guy was nearly to tears and just wanted to go. I said "look I'm done and I sure I can help if you want to get your deer".
I ended up talking him into it although we sat and chatted until the witnesses all left and new shooters arrived.

To shorten the story, we spent the next two hours working with it. When he started to get excited about his group tightening he started to forget about the thump and did better and better. I would take his rifle and load one cartridge at a time for him...sometimes a spent shell, so he never knew when he had a live one for sure and was NOT going to make a fool of himself again. In the end he thanked me and I left him my number in case he had any questions.

I guess it worked well enough. He sent me a picture of his nice little buck with a thank you.

In his case, he was really just on his own, didn't know much other than he really wanted to go deer hunting, and had no one to show him what to do. So kudos again to him for trying.

 

[Randy F]

I bought a 12 gauge slug gun for deer. After one season of getting my attention, I sold it and bought a 20 and that STILL gets my attention.

Where I grew up it was shot gun only so we didn't have a choice. I was throwing pumpkins out of a 20 gauge when I could barely hold the thing up. Later in in my teens I thought I needed something bigger so bought a 12 gauge. I'm an idiot.

 

[AZDAVE]

@Justbryan and @Red Leg Like you gentleman I grew up shooting birds (My dad only hunted birds) and started shooting my great grandfathers M97 12 ga at 10years old. Then worked into a sxs shooting the 1 7/8 oz goose and duck loads. So recoil was just a thing you learned to work with. A family friend introduced me to rifles and started with a 300WM then a 375 and a ruger #3 in 45/70 (light and not the best stock design) then worked with most big bores in the 40-45 cal range. So over the years learned to work with the rifle rather than against it.

One of my observation over the years is that a lot of shooters trying a big bore for the first time have poorly fitting rifles and they get hit by more recoil than they expect. I have purchased a number of rifles over the years in 375 and larger with one or two bullets missing out of the first box of shells, I have offered to help them learn to shoot bigger calibers but most just sell me a rifle and go back to 308 and smaller.

Most folks the 30/06 level of recoil is about their top end of non trained recoil management level. Luckly they can hunt most plains game and non DG with a premium bullet and 30/06 combo just fine.

As a big bore shooter I feel it is an obligation to those that taught me to help new folks learn to shoot well and manage recoil. My pint size wife learned and listens to blocks of instructions on her rifles and her favorite rifle is her 338 and 375. She shoots them like most of the recoil adverse crowd does their 6.5 creedmoor's with muzzle breaks.

One of my big dislikes is when I see someone take one of their kids or wife and hand them the biggest gun they own and laugh when it knocks them to the ground. Then they wonder why their wife or children never want to shoot again..... I will admit to not being very kind with my words to people like that.

 

[WAB]

You guys raise an excellent point. I started hunting pheasant with a single shot 12 ga and 1 1/4 oz loads. I’ll bet that gun weighed no more than 6 pounds. I killed a lot of pheasant with that gun. By comparison, my first deer rifle had no recoil at all!

 

[colorado]

I must have slept through any recoil aversion that may have occurred.

I've gone in the opposite direction. I started out with a 243, hunted deer, black bear, javelina and killed two elk with it. Moved up to a Remington BDL in 270 in 1980 when I started out as an associate guide / wrangler in the Bob Marshal wilderness. I gave that wonderful rifle to my youngest son, and have progressed from it to a 375 Weatherby and now a 500 Jeffery which I use to hunt everything including the occasional unfortunate jack rabbit. The nice thing is, after shooting the 500 Jeffery, nothing seems to kick at all including our 7 1/2 lb 375 Weatherby

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Bad technique.

Most are starting shooting with AR-15s. Imagine duplicating this with a big bore?

View attachment 379010

I understand your point. However that ACOG has an eye relief of less than two inches. He probably has to shoot it like that to use his issued scope. Notice how the stock is all the way collapsed. It looks looks uncomfortable and he probably is.

 

[Whacker]

Well it has been quite an exciting day so far!! My 375 H&H I’ve had ordered finally showed up!! My scope mounts aren’t in for it yet so I decided to go shoot it with the sights and get them sighted in. The bullets I have on hand are the 300 grain Nosler Factory ammo. Having never shot the 375 before I sat it up on the bench and tightly shouldered it and proceeded easing back on the trigger until she touched off. I was unknowing what to expect of the recoil as I figured it would be much more than my 300 Ultra Mag or 45-70 but as it fired off I was in for a great surprise. It may be the way this rifle fits me but it was in no way as bad as I thought it was going to be...I’m not even sure it was any worse than my 45-70 although I am shooting fairly stout handloads of 300 grain hollow points out of it and it’s an 1895 GBL with a 18 inch barrel. All in all I shot it 3 more times at 25 yards getting my sights dialed in then backed off to 100 for 10 more rounds. Of course I can’t get a tight group with open sights at that distance but it was about 5 inches...plenty good for this weekend on hogs. I was way overestimating the recoil on that first shot and I am immediately in love with this rifle. When I get the optics for it I believe my wife can also start working her way up to it as well being she already shoots 12ga.

 

[TTundra]

I understand your point. However that ACOG has an eye relief of less than two inches. He probably has to shoot it like that to use his issued scope. Notice how the stock is all the way collapsed. It looks looks uncomfortable and he probably is.

May have also done his share of clearing homes/structures. Get pretty tired after 10+ hours moving thru structures and elbows get tucked...

 

[Red Leg]

I understand your point. However that ACOG has an eye relief of less than two inches. He probably has to shoot it like that to use his issued scope. Notice how the stock is all the way collapsed. It looks looks uncomfortable and he probably is.

Try shooting while wearing body armor. You would shorten a stock as well. NVD's after nightfall further complicate the issue. One reason the army is exploring "smart" goggles where the rifle is "aimed" by a heads up display crosshair in the goggle. Most effective way to use the M4 with it seems to be tucking the stock under the shoulder/arm.

Army’s Sci-Fi Infantry Goggles Change the Mechanics of Shooting, Soldiers Say

Soldiers offered feedback on the Army's futuristic new IVAS technology.

www.military.com

 

[CoElkHunter]

Just prior to the whitetail opener here I was at the range putting a few rounds through my 30.06. There were quite a few others there doing the same. What caught my attention, and I guess surprised me some, was overhearing some of them talk about sighting in or "checking their sights" because they hadn't touched their rifle since putting it away the year before.
One poor young fellow was struggling a little and still lining up for his shot as they rest were done and waiting on him to go down range to check their targets. Kudos to him for taking his time but of course all eyes were on him. When it finally time for him to pull the trigger, the convulsion he went through when the gun did NOT go off was extremely humiliating for him. His safety was still on but wow, you would swear he just lit off a silent cannon. He was shooting a .270 and terrified of it. Of course there was laughter and snide comments. He was so embarrassed that he just gave it up and started packing it up.

While the rest went done range I approached him and asked if I could help. The poor guy was nearly to tears and just wanted to go. I said "look I'm done and I sure I can help if you want to get your deer".
I ended up talking him into it although we sat and chatted until the witnesses all left and new shooters arrived.

To shorten the story, we spent the next two hours working with it. When he started to get excited about his group tightening he started to forget about the thump and did better and better. I would take his rifle and load one cartridge at a time for him...sometimes a spent shell, so he never knew when he had a live one for sure and was NOT going to make a fool of himself again. In the end he thanked me and I left him my number in case he had any questions.

I guess it worked well enough. He sent me a picture of his nice little buck with a thank you.

In his case, he was really just on his own, didn't know much other than he really wanted to go deer hunting, and had no one to show him what to do. So kudos again to him for trying.

Good man for helping him out! I/we forget sometimes that many of these young shooters have no mentor available to them to teach them basic shooting skills. When I was learning to shoot and hunt, I was in the same boat as that young man. I’ve never forgotten that and help young and/or inexperienced shooters/hunters whenever I can.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Very Interesting @Red Leg . Wasn’t body armor a big reason they started with collapsible stocks in the first place? (I’m not being smart, just asking someone far more experienced than I am.)
My point was, there are reasons that he is shooting his M4 differently than he would a 458. And recoil is only one of several.

 

[BeeMaa]

WOW I'm following a philosophy and didn't even know it. Typical range day usually includes 3-4 rifles. 223/308/35Remington/30-06. 223 is usually just for goofing off. My 308 is my go to, if I cant shoot Sub MOA with first magazine, it's not gonna be a good day. THe 35 is a project gun I started 2 years ago. Marlin Texan, shorthened to 16 1/2", still working the bugs out with sights so it pretty much goes every trip, really a pleasant caliber to shoot. Then the 30-06, bolt gun was new to me last year and is going to Africa in April, so getting roind count and becoming comfortable withthe rifle is important. Personally I enjoy shooting the bigger bore. I have a 444Marlin that will make your fingers go numb after 3 rounds. I just purchased a Ruger#1 in 375H&H and can't wait to add it to the weekly range visits. Added a couple of pics of the 35Rem. Added a Skinner peep sight -- working on front sight height now

View attachment 379040View attachment 379041

You may want to revisit the 35REM with the peep sight.

The peep is great for targets, but not so great for hunting.
For hunting, most people prefer a ghost ring sight.
The aperture on a peep is much smaller than on a ghost ring sight.

This extra space allows you to "see" the game between the front and rear sights.
The tolerances on some peeps are too tight to get a proper sight picture.
This may or may not be the case with you...I wasn't sure.
Didn't want you to land in the bush and realize it all too late.

Nice looking rifle.
The laminate really makes it pop.
Keep on shooting and I'm sure your safari will be successful.
Cheers.

 

[mdwest]

Very Interesting @Red Leg . Wasn’t body armor a big reason they started with collapsible stocks in the first place? (I’m not being smart, just asking someone far more experienced than I am.)
My point was, there are reasons that he is shooting his M4 differently than he would a 458. And recoil is only one of several.

No..

The M4, and its predecessor the CAR15 were developed and fielded LONG before body armor was commonplace among soldiers or even flack jackets were widely distributed and used..

The idea was to provide a variable length of pull that better accommodates a wide range of sizes/shapes of soldiers and other friendly forces (the average vietnamese dude isnt the same size as the average guy from indiana)... as well as a wide range of clothing that might be worn (everything from guys fighting in tropical environments to extreme cold situations to CQB situations, etc..)..

It also makes the weapon easier to use/manipulate in close confines (in a vehicle for example) and also easier to rig for some specific operational purposes (parachuting is an example)..



The guy in the pic isnt that close to the optic because of the specific eye relief of the optic being used..

He is doing what he was trained to do.. whether shooting with iron sights, an ACOG, an EOTech, or an Aimpoint (or anything else for that matter)..

Troops are typically taught in basic training in both the USMC and the Army (I would guess in the Navy and USAF as well if they are in positions where they are going to be issued anything in the M16 or M4 family of weapons) to put the tip of their nose on the back of the charging handle of the weapon when they mount the rifle.. they do this to ensure a consistent cheek weld and consistent "look" down the sights.. This is also one of the ways that the lack of recoil in the M16/M4 system is demonstrated to trainees (place it against the tip of your nose.. crank off several rounds.. it doesnt hurt.. it isnt even uncomfortable, etc..)..

His overall body position.. thats a different discussion all together..

but how his face is planted and where it is planted against the weapon, etc.. is EXACTLY what he was taught to do.. for reasons that have nothing to do with eye relief...

 

[YancyW]

No..

The M4, and its predecessor the CAR15 were developed and fielded LONG before body armor was commonplace among soldiers or even flack jackets were widely distributed and used..

The idea was to provide a variable length of pull that better accommodates a wide range of sizes/shapes of soldiers and other friendly forces (the average vietnamese dude isnt the same size as the average guy from indiana)... as well as a wide range of clothing that might be worn (everything from guys fighting in tropical environments to extreme cold situations to CQB situations, etc..)..

It also makes the weapon easier to use/manipulate in close confines (in a vehicle for example) and also easier to rig for some specific operational purposes (parachuting is an example)..



The guy in the pic isnt that close to the optic because of the specific eye relief of the optic being used..

He is doing what he was trained to do.. whether shooting with iron sights, an ACOG, an EOTech, or an Aimpoint (or anything else for that matter)..

Troops are typically taught in basic training in both the USMC and the Army (I would guess in the Navy and USAF as well if they are in positions where they are going to be issued anything in the M16 or M4 family of weapons) to put the tip of their nose on the back of the charging handle of the weapon when they mount the rifle.. they do this to ensure a consistent cheek weld and consistent "look" down the sights.. This is also one of the ways that the lack of recoil in the M16/M4 system is demonstrated to trainees (place it against the tip of your nose.. crank off several rounds.. it doesnt hurt.. it isnt even uncomfortable, etc..)..

His overall body position.. thats a different discussion all together..

but how his face is planted and where it is planted against the weapon, etc.. is EXACTLY what he was taught to do.. for reasons that have nothing to do with eye relief...

Nose to charging handle. You beat me to it.