Really Nice Muzzleloader For Sale

[Bullthrower338]

Make zero mistakes about it: these are designed and built to get around game Regs. 1,000,000%

Here in CCCP Illinois, you can hunt with a slug or a muzzleloader or a 40lb draw vertical bow. They added crossbow only 2 years ago. So how are you going to hunt? You need the range in a state with 6 trees to shoot 300 yards into a bean field.

Unrelated rant: the ml and slug have 50-80 lbs of recoil, all dangerous game recoil types. How will a kid hunt? Answer: by the time they can, they are no longer interested, just like the gov’t wanted.

All of those ridiculous limitations are made by inner city mouth breathers that have never read the warning on a box of the cheapest 22 LR ammo.
I agree that this really kills a child’s interest in hunting. Just like the damn age restrictions that some states have! Both of my sons had killed big game animals by 8, elk at 10 but couldn’t hunt in Montana until 12. These are formative years to make hunters out of them. Sure they can go to the field with you but it isn’t the same as if they are carrying their own rifle and know they have a chance to shoot a deer. We need to get them interested in hunting before they are worried about girls and hanging out with friends(when they still think dad is cool).
On the subject though, I bought my oldest son an Austin Halleck .50 that is beautiful and unbelievably accurate. Recoil is also mild.

 

[rookhawk]

All of those ridiculous limitations are made by inner city mouth breathers that have never read the warning on a box of the cheapest 22 LR ammo.
I agree that this really kills a child’s interest in hunting. Just like the damn age restrictions that some states have! Both of my sons had killed big game animals by 8, elk at 10 but couldn’t hunt in Montana until 12. These are formative years to make hunters out of them. Sure they can go to the field with you but it isn’t the same as if they are carrying their own rifle and know they have a chance to shoot a deer. We need to get them interested in hunting before they are worried about girls and hanging out with friends(when they still think dad is cool).
On the subject though, I bought my oldest son an Austin Halleck .50 that is beautiful and unbelievably accurate. Recoil is also mild.

@Bullthrower338 on parenting you and I are aligned 100%.

Same issue over here, my 10 year old can apply in NM and AZ, my 8 year old NM, my 7 year old NM. Texas options are terrible, but you can try at age 9. Tough drawing 20:1 odds tags, tough driving 28 hours each way to use them if drawn.

The rest of the no minimum age states have deer but virtually no public land and leases can go $15k a year in some quarters.

I spend at least 500 hours a year trying to get my kids opportunities (tags and access rights) to hunt in the given system...it’s not easy.

Your .50 cal is great for your son! Try imr white hots pellets, they have the least recoil and most accuracy of all pellets...unless you’re using bh209 powder.

To make the OP muzzleloader “kid friendly”, you need this muzzlebrake: https://lrcustomsinc.com/products/g3-mz-rex-premium-brake-kit ugly as sin, but nearly half the recoil and no muzzle jump.

 

[JimP]

I don't know about the age group of under 12. In my age group 60+ you had to be 16 to hunt big game here in most of the west and at the time it was 14 for small game. 12 and older could hunt jack rabbits and that was about it. It didn't slow down us from savoring the time that we were 16 and able to go and actually shoot a big game animal.

A big problem here in the west with younger hunters is that we give them the moon until they turn 18. They have special seasons and hunts and have a lot of very good options, but once they turn 18 they are thrown into the adult world of only hunting when they can draw a tag and in a lot of states that tag is once every couple of years for deer. Elk are usually over the counter unless you want to hunt a premium unit and then they may have to wait 15-25 years to draw that tag as a resident.

But back to muzzle loaders. A lot of states are implementing rules and regulation on just what a muzzle loader is and what it can shoot. Here in Colorado it has to be black powder or a substitute, no sabots or pellets and only open sights for the muzzle loader hunt. If you want to pack that Remington on a any weapon hunt then your are more than welcome. Other states have stricter rules, no 209 primers, hammers have to be exposed, the cap must be exposed, along with others rules.

 

[rookhawk]

I don't know about the age group of under 12. In my age group 60+ you had to be 16 to hunt big game here in most of the west and at the time it was 14 for small game. 12 and older could hunt jack rabbits and that was about it. It didn't slow down us from savoring the time that we were 16 and able to go and actually shoot a big game animal.

A big problem here in the west with younger hunters is that we give them the moon until they turn 18. They have special seasons and hunts and have a lot of very good options, but once they turn 18 they are thrown into the adult world of only hunting when they can draw a tag and in a lot of states that tag is once every couple of years for deer. Elk are usually over the counter unless you want to hunt a premium unit and then they may have to wait 15-25 years to draw that tag as a resident.

But back to muzzle loaders. A lot of states are implementing rules and regulation on just what a muzzle loader is and what it can shoot. Here in Colorado it has to be black powder or a substitute, no sabots or pellets and only open sights for the muzzle loader hunt. If you want to pack that Remington on a any weapon hunt then your are more than welcome. Other states have stricter rules, no 209 primers, hammers have to be exposed, the cap must be exposed, along with others rules.

indeed, there are a hundred rules about what a muzzle loader is state by state.

Idaho and Oregon (maybe WA?) are the lost cause states. Custom made guns with exposed holes in the action so it has a “visible primer”, nonsense like that.

For MOST of the good states, the muzzleloader featured herein it’s legal. You may have to use iron sights, but you can tune irons to shoot as far as glass....people shoot irons to 1000 yards in black powder cartridge shoots.

Some states require powder...no matter, everyone wants to shoot BH209 for accuracy and power.

some states require no sabots or a lead only bullet....those are readily available.

 

[Tra3]

What bullets are you all using? I’ve been using scorpion PT gold 300 grain bullets and BH209 powders They shoot well. They also flatten like a pancake when you shoot something.

 

[Ray B]

Idaho and Oregon (maybe WA?) are the lost cause states.

Different states have different perspectives and reasons. those states that restrict the use of "modern firearms/rifles" generally do so for safety reasons. Until recently a muzzleloader had a fairly limited range and so was included with those other limited range implements such as shotguns and archery.

the other states (those lost cause states) limit the various implements for aesthetic reasons. An entrant in the muzzleloader group isn't included because it is a muzzleloader but because it is classified as Primitive. Initially only side hammer guns that "looked" like 1800 muzzleloaders were included. then makers started stretching the limits of the various definitions and the lobbyists applied pressure so that several aspects of modern muzzleloaders are now included in the primitive definition.

So it's like anything the government touches- vocal interest groups will push and the limp politicians yield until the original spirit of things is completely unrecognizable.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Different states have different perspectives and reasons. those states that restrict the use of "modern firearms/rifles" generally do so for safety reasons. Until recently a muzzleloader had a fairly limited range and so was included with those other limited range implements such as shotguns and archery.

the other states (those lost cause states) limit the various implements for aesthetic reasons. An entrant in the muzzleloader group isn't included because it is a muzzleloader but because it is classified as Primitive. Initially only side hammer guns that "looked" like 1800 muzzleloaders were included. then makers started stretching the limits of the various definitions and the lobbyists applied pressure so that several aspects of modern muzzleloaders are now included in the primitive definition.

So it's like anything the government touches- vocal interest groups will push and the limp politicians yield until the original spirit of things is completely unrecognizable.

Don't know about other states but I remember when compound bows, sights and trigger releases were illegal in PA. We used recurve bows, wooden arrows, feather fletching and fingers released the string. What now passes for archery compares to what now passes for muzzleloader. Archery license sales declining? Allow crossbows. Make modern, higher velocity muzzleloaders legal and increase muzzleloader license sales. We can argue as to original intent of primitive weapon use for hunting but from what I see in most states, money is the prime arbiter of regulations.

 

[rookhawk]

Don't know about other states but I remember when compound bows, sights and trigger releases were illegal in PA. We used recurve bows, wooden arrows, feather fletching and fingers released the string. What now passes for archery compares to what now passes for muzzleloader. Archery license sales declining? Allow crossbows. Make modern, higher velocity muzzleloaders legal and increase muzzleloader license sales. We can argue as to original intent of primitive weapon use for hunting but from what I see in most states, money is the prime arbiter of regulations.

Oh absolutely. People respond to incentives, and almost always in ways gov’t cannot foresee.

Here’s an amusing one:

Illinois has a handgun season too. 1.6” straight wall case. Factory loaded ammo.

What are people buying? 15.5” barreled AR “pistols”. Chambered for some new 300 yard AR straight wall cartridge. Includes a “stock” ruled by BATF TO BE A STABALIZER.

So since we can’t shoot rifles, people are roaming the woods with ARs with ten rounds that are built on a pistol serial number even though they are absolutely rifles.

So the theme is this: want to legally beat the law? Outspend and out innovate your sporting brethren. Get the best muzzleloader, slug, crossbow, and pistol you can. Draw those easier “during the rut” tags before the rules change again and you need to buy more gadgets in this arms race to have rifle abilities in non-rifle seasons.

I hate the game, but I play the game.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

How did you do this weekend rookhawk? Down here in Pike we have some long open shots, and a whole lot of real thick brush. The deer I shot this afternoon was as far away from me as I could have shot which was 30 paces. I used my slug gun today, but carried a Knight inline yesterday prepared for a 150 yard shot.
Do you think they will ever allow straight walk rifle to be used?

 

[rookhawk]

How did you do this weekend rookhawk? Down here in Pike we have some long open shots, and a whole lot of real thick brush. The deer I shot this afternoon was as far away from me as I could have shot which was 30 paces. I used my slug gun today, but carried a Knight inline yesterday prepared for a 150 yard shot.
Do you think they will ever allow straight walk rifle to be used?

@Wyatt Smith we sadly didn’t get to go. We have some generous friends that let us try to hunt a doe each late season in Jo Davies and another friend in Central WI that lets one of my kids hunt a doe mid-December.

I’ve been unable to muster my kids access to land for a buck hunt in the midwest this year. Add to that, deer hobby farms 2 hours from me run $600k-$800k so that’s not in the cards either!

I had a stroke of genius this year and filed a FOIA in WI for every farmer that was issued deer nuisance kill permits. I figured they’d be willing to let some kids hunt so I called about 30 of the farmers on that list that were supposedly taking serious Ag damage from deer. Two of them said no, but the land is deer paradise and I can buy their 150 acres for $2-$3m. (Not kidding) The other 28ish farmers I called had dozens of buddies hunting their land and they planted crops specifically to get deer damage to get the tags so they could kill velvet bucks and hunt prior to opening day. (Also not kidding)

Not trying to be a whiner and paint gloomy pictures, but that’s why we didn’t get out in the past three weeks. Had a great 7 year buck out my door at 2 yards, but can’t hunt my 1/2 acre and only usda sharpshooters get to kill my towns deer each year. (No hunting on conservation lands)

Anyway, more importantly I’m so happy you got a deer today! Please share pics and recipes! You have some great meals coming! I do think they are going to allow SW cartridges sooner than later. This is a tangent unrelated to MLs and kids hunting with MLs, but here’s why they are going to allow SW cartridges in my opinion...they’re in trouble. (If you’d like to discuss, let’s create a thread...the reasons below are why they will allow SW rifles eventually, just as states desperately introduce crossbows to offset lower license sales)

From my blog:

This is a great video from NPR on the topic of conservation and guns that everyone that loves wild places will enjoy.

The interesting point is we are leading to a demographic crisis that leads to a funding crisis that leads to a conservation crisis.

Guns and Ammunition whether they are a personal defense handgun, an AR-15, or a shotgun for shooting ducks all have a large tax on them that started in 1937 known as the Pittman-Robertson Wildlife Aid Restoration Act. In the 1970s this was expanded to include handguns and the target archery bow your cub scout troops bought for summer camp too. This 11% excise tax has been used to bring notable species back from the brink over almost a century and was working really well to fund the lions share of money for conservation nationwide. Additional funding has come for Federal lands, refuges and forests through the sale of hunting and fishing licenses throughout the nation over the past many decades. Up until now, the system has worked out really well because those that pay the tax (hunters, target shooters, archers, and fishermen) have received benefit of enjoying wild places and experiences through the tax scheme while those that simply camp, hike the appalachian trail, or go to a national park get to enjoy the benefits of these experiences at the expense of the hunters/fisherman that are more than willing to pay the tax for the nation.

The interesting crisis that is emerging is well covered by NPR though, and that's why its worth a watch of the video if you like outdoor experiences and conservation. The problem is that hunters and fishermen are getting older demographically and that is leading to a financial cliff where less sporting goods are being purchased for hunting each year and less people are getting into the same interests to replace their tax burden.

Up until now, most of you will not have known of this brewing crisis because another tax payer has been picking up the slack for this reduced demand for hunting guns, bows, and ammunition, the modern "gun guy".

With the tensions around 2nd amendment issues brewing since the Clinton Assault Weapons ban of 1994 through the Obama administration and now serious debate about restrictions in 2nd amendment rights, along with allowing for concealed carry handguns in many States, changes have happened. A LOT of guns have been sold to non-conservationists and non-outdoors people so the tax receipts have been offsetting the loss of support from a decline by spend by hunters.

So the crisis is thus: Something is going to happen in regards to the "gun guy" in the debate around the 2nd amendement in short order. Either everyone that wants a gun out of fear of a ban on handguns or tactical rifles will reach saturation and that demand cliff will happen, OR a restriction on handguns and tactical so called assault rifles will take place stopping availability of them in the coming few years. In either case, the temporary obsession by non-hunters and non-archers to own weapons will subside by ban, restriction, or saturation very soon.

That will indeed create the predicament that is the purpose of the story: when the current spend on non-hunting guns subsides we are going to wake up realizing the primary means of support for our wild places, the 11% excise tax and the hunting/fishing licenses will have dried up significantly. In 2016 alone the distribution through the Pittman Robertson Act to State wildlife agencies for conservation was $1.1 billion dollars and that money will be drying up as the demographics of who pays for that money and how radically transforms in the coming two decades.

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/5930...YvzF3-3N1GlM1PY4KepxGYr8BAFhlhE_L2cjJ759CHPfQ

 

[rookhawk]

What bullets are you all using? I’ve been using scorpion PT gold 300 grain bullets and BH209 powders They shoot well. They also flatten like a pancake when you shoot something.

lots of choices out there, limitless if you want deer Bullets, less of you want elk.

Top three that are raved about:

parker productions
Fury
Barnes

the OEM remington bullet is actually the 250gr Barnes optimally sized for the barrel and sabot, otherwise identical.

 

[WAB]

Have you guys thought about going back to traditional long range muzzleloaders? I’ve watched my buddy ringing gongs at 500 with his .45 cal whitworth. You can actually feel the rifle twist in you hands when that long slug drives through the rifling.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Have you guys thought about going back to traditional long range muzzleloaders? I’ve watched my buddy ringing gongs at 500 with his .45 cal whitworth. You can actually feel the rifle twist in you hands when that long slug drives through the rifling.

What velocity do they have and is it enough to kill a large game animal. How long after the shot does it reach the target? I'd say at that distance, they're the equivalent of a bow shot at 100 yards and a lot can happen between launch and impact.

 

[rookhawk]

What velocity do they have and is it enough to kill a large game animal. How long after the shot does it reach the target? I'd say at that distance, they're the equivalent of a bow shot at 100 yards and a lot can happen between launch and impact.

the super accurate ones are .45 and they are bullet to bore. Not legal in all the desired states.

 

[WAB]

They were the sniper rifles of their era. Unbelievably accurate and plenty of punch for elk sized game.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

She was just a two year old doe I shot for the freezer. I’m sorry I didn’t take any pictures.
It’s a shame you can’t find anywhere for your kids to hunt. I have a few small patches of timber I can hunt but it’s not much. There are a lot of locals around here who can’t find anywhere to hunt because out of state/county hunter’s have all the hunting land bought or the hunting rights rented from local landowners.
My father and I are farmers and the deer are real problem for our crops but we can’t do anything about it.

 

[Ray B]

There are a lot of locals around here who can’t find anywhere to hunt because out of state/county hunter’s have all the hunting land bought or the hunting rights rented from local landowners.

Last I checked that was the situation in Eastern Washington. Virtually all of the Columbia Basin is privately owned and almost all of it has the hunting rights leased to Seattle area hunting clubs. the farmer can't hunt on the land that he farms. the game dept has efforts to lease land that it opens to the public, but the Demonrat legislature controls the money and in general has a dim view of hunting and those who hunt.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

I am not a muzzle loader hunter or shooter, yet, but have read a good deal on the subject. Randy Wakeman has written quite a bit on muzzle loaders and has been singing the praise on the Remington Ultimate, considering it the best or one of the best out there. Wakeman is quite critical of the CVA, and if you do some research on the subject, it seems there has been more than a few lawsuits with CVA.

This is a link to Wakeman's muzzle loader reviews.
http://randywakeman.com/inline.htm

 

[Hogpatrol]

Among others makes, Hank's Precision Rifles modifies the Remington UML to shoot land riders, velocities and ballistics close to centerfires.

https://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/muzzleloaders/

 

[rookhawk]

Indeed, you can hire someone to make a 50 cal Remington 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader into a .45 caliber muzzleloader. *warning, not legal in all states...some require .50 cal

Typically, here are the things people do to these guns:

1.) Arrowhead breach plug for $180. This is a superior ignition system and allows you to use BH209, up to 160 volumetric grains. You'll never get the accuracy with pellets or blackpowder.
2.) TriggerTech replacement trigger for $150. This is a sealed system, it won't gum up with soot. 2.5lb break if you wish.
3.) Iron sight customization...I wrote an article on this. $250 to have quick detach sights for the iron-only states and Talley rings QD on a scope for the rest of the time. Not simple to do...I was the only one to figure this one out so far with a lot of help from experts.
4.) Rex Brake by Levi Reed of LR Customs. $350. Over 50% recoil reduction. It also includes a custom bullet starter and custom funnel so you can load powder through a muzzlebrake.
5.) Glass bedding of course is an option.
6.) Geeking out on all the different sabots and bullets, or sabotless bullets is hours of entertainment where you can spend hundreds on different sizes and shapes of bullets.

And if you decide to pay $1500+ to convert it to a .45 cal, you then spend $500 on swaging dies and presses so you can size all your bullets EXACTLY to the ten-thousandth so they bore ride with optimal friction. This gets you the 350-500 yard scenarios. Pay even more and you can get an overbuilt barrel that allows you to use smokeless powder for crazy accuracy and 700 yard + ranges. (*Note, smokeless powder is illegal in many states. Most of the douche-bag large custom builders mix in a dash of black powder into the smokeless recipes so the game warden thinks you're using blackpowder...nice that the major brands out there are conspiring to violate the law)

And the list goes on and on and on. In the end, you can have $8000-$12,000 wrapped up into a gun that will be sold by your heirs at a yard sale someday with all the other carbon fiber, stainless steel, laminate junk for just a few bucks.

Or you could just drop a grand on a fully decked out Rem UML from the original post, shoot it 300 yards happily, and take all your remaining money to buy real guns that have souls and won't be pawned someday. (e.g. griffin & howes, sedgleys, Von Langerke, Win70s, Mausers)