Question for the reloading experts...

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Case head expansion is the way l measure pressure also. That and l do it on a hot summer day. Gives me a good safe reliable load under most conditions

Mike Van Horn
That's how U develop my loads as well. If'n it's safe in extremely hot weather it's fine for any other time if the year. You will not be surprised by any pressure excursions by heat if you developed your loads in got weather
Bob

 

[Scott CWO]

@Scott CWO

Since I already have the 338 AF in my ballistic software (Shooter Ballistics) on my phone I did a quick edit to match up to your load's profile using 8,500 Density Altitude, (the G1 BC was already .384). It's in Mils since the last scope on that rifle had 1 mil holdovers.

1.0 mils = 36" at 1k yards, or 3.6" at 100 Yds (or 3.438 MOA per 100 Yards) yada yada.

Using a 200 Yard zero your holdover dots (again in mils) are:
0.6 mils @ 300 Yds; 1.4 @ 400; 2.3 @ 500; and 3.2 mils @ 600 Yds

Drift is based on a 10 MPH crosswind:
IF I were to switch the MV to 2,800 fps the new long distance dot (using 3.2 mils) becomes 575 Yds
edit to add: Altitude in the chart shows at zero which is misleading. It was entered same at the Zeroing profile of 8,500 "DA" @ 45*F. Humidity was entered at 30%.

Sight Height: 1.65 (in)	Zero Range: 200 (yd)	Barrel Twist: 1:10.0"; Right	Elevation Correction Factor: 1.0	Wind Correction Factor: 1.0
Bullet Diameter: 0.338 (in)	Bullet Weight: 225.0 (gr)	Bullet Length: 0.0 (in)	Muzzle Velocity: 2900.0 (fps)	Atmosphere Std: ICAO	Drag Model: G1	Ballistic Coefs: 0.384 > 0
Altitude: 0.0 (ft)	Temp: 45.0 (F)	Relative Humidity: 0.0%	Pressure: 0.0 (inHg)	Wind Speed: 10.0 (mph)	Wind Angle: 90.0 (deg)
Target Angle: 0.0 (deg)	Coriolis Effect: N/A
Range (yd)	Path (in)	Path (mils)	Drift (in)	Drift (mils)	Velocity (fps)	Energy (ft-lbs)	TOF (s)
600​	-70​	3.2​	-27​	1.2​	1871​	1748.9​	0.774​
575​	-61.8​	3​	-24.5​	1.2​	1909​	1820.5​	0.734​
550​	-54.3​	2.7​	-22.3​	1.1​	1946.7​	1893.2​	0.695​
525​	-47.3​	2.5​	-20.1​	1.1​	1985.7​	1969.8​	0.657​
500​	-40.9​	2.3​	-18.1​	1​	2024.3​	2047.2​	0.62​
475​	-35​	2​	-16.1​	0.9​	2064.1​	2128.6​	0.583​
450​	-29.6​	1.8​	-14.3​	0.9​	2104.1​	2211.8​	0.547​
425​	-24.7​	1.6​	-12.7​	0.8​	2144.1​	2296.7​	0.512​
400​	-20.3​	1.4​	-11.1​	0.8​	2185.3​	2385.9​	0.477​
375​	-16.3​	1.2​	-9.7​	0.7​	2226.6​	2476.7​	0.443​
350​	-12.8​	1​	-8.4​	0.7​	2267.8​	2569.2​	0.41​
325​	-9.7​	0.8​	-7.2​	0.6​	2310.2​	2666.2​	0.377​
300​	-7​	0.6​	-6.1​	0.6​	2352.5​	2764.8​	0.345​
275​	-4.7​	0.5​	-5.1​	0.5​	2395.4​	2866.5​	0.313​
250​	-2.8​	0.3​	-4.1​	0.5​	2438.7​	2971.2​	0.282​
225​	-1.2​	0.2​	-3.3​	0.4​	2482.7​	3079.2​	0.252​
200​	0​	0​	-2.6​	0.4​	2527.1​	3190.5​	0.222​
175​	0.9​	-0.1​	-2​	0.3​	2572.1​	3305​	0.192​
150​	1.4​	-0.3​	-1.4​	0.3​	2617.6​	3422.9​	0.163​
125​	1.6​	-0.4​	-1​	0.2​	2663.5​	3544.1​	0.135​
100​	1.6​	-0.4​	-0.6​	0.2​	2709​	3666.3​	0.107​
75​	1.2​	-0.4​	-0.4​	0.1​	2755.8​	3794​	0.08​
50​	0.5​	-0.3​	-0.2​	0.1​	2803​	3925.2​	0.053​
25​	-0.4​	0.5​	0​	0​	2850.8​	4060.1​	0.026​
0​	-1.6​	0​	0​	0​	2900​	4201.5​	0​

Yes those numbers are almost exactly what I was sent by Premier Reticles in 2004.

 

[Scott CWO]

Scott,

After all has been said in this thread here is what I would do to load you some ammo.

Pull a bullet and weigh the powder charge.

Take it out and get a three shot spread to check the velocity.

Look at a number of loading manuals and see what they say.

If it is a max charge I would back off 10% and then bring the new loads up to match the sample rounds.

Picture above are the loads I have left. These were loaded in June of 2017 and have worked great. Two different cases but shoot almost exactly the same. Can I just have these duplicated by someone new without having to test everything again just because of different lot of same powder??

The gunsmith tested all these loads in 2004 and also sent me these to test but I never did because his testing showed 70.5 was the best accuracy. I just took his word for it and have shot the 70.5 for twenty years. You will notice that he sent me two cartridges at 70.6, but he tested 70.5. Obviously, I’ve never tested any of these but he tested them all.

So as I said above, do I really need to start all over just because powder lot will be different? Or can I just go with 70.5??

I do plan to chronograph some of the remaining loads with a local friend that @Mike Van Horn and I both know.

 

[hoytcanon]

View attachment 589998Picture above are the loads I have left. These were loaded in June of 2017 and have worked great. Two different cases but shoot almost exactly the same. Can I just have these duplicated by someone new without having to test everything again just because of different lot of same powder??

View attachment 589999
The gunsmith tested all these loads in 2004 and also sent me these to test but I never did because his testing showed 70.5 was the best accuracy. I just took his word for it and have shot the 70.5 for twenty years. You will notice that he sent me two cartridges at 70.6, but he tested 70.5. Obviously, I’ve never tested any of these but he tested them all.

So as I said above, do I really need to start all over just because powder lot will be different? Or can I just go with 70.5??

I do plan to chronograph some of the remaining loads with a local friend that @Mike Van Horn and I both know.

His data is clearly written and I think you can trust that, however, I would chrono three rounds, then deconstruct a round, weigh the powder to be certain. Then have 10 rounds manufactured to the same specs... then test those rounds over the chrono and confirming your holdovers... if that holds up and checks out, go ahead and have the remainder of the rounds you want made.

 

[shootist~]

Different brand of brass and different lot of powder: If it were in my own (same) rifle and same reloading gear, I would still start a grain or so under. And my actual sop would include one round at less than that. You need one to foul the bore anyway.

If it were a medium pressure load, totally different situation.

$.02

 

[hoytcanon]

Nah, live life large... go out with a BANG!

 

[Scott CWO]

Different brand of brass and different lot of powder: If it were in my own (same) rifle and same reloading gear, I would still start a grain or so under. And my actual sop would include one round at less than that. You need one to foul the bore anyway.

If it were a medium pressure load, totally different situation.

$.02

Yes, we will do this. Thanks. Looking for brass and primers now. I have bullets and powder.

 

[Ridge Runner]

View attachment 589998Picture above are the loads I have left. These were loaded in June of 2017 and have worked great. Two different cases but shoot almost exactly the same. Can I just have these duplicated by someone new without having to test everything again just because of different lot of same powder??

View attachment 589999
The gunsmith tested all these loads in 2004 and also sent me these to test but I never did because his testing showed 70.5 was the best accuracy. I just took his word for it and have shot the 70.5 for twenty years. You will notice that he sent me two cartridges at 70.6, but he tested 70.5. Obviously, I’ve never tested any of these but he tested them all.

So as I said above, do I really need to start all over just because powder lot will be different? Or can I just go with 70.5??

I do plan to chronograph some of the remaining loads with a local friend that @Mike Van Horn and I both know.

Hmmm..........let's see....

1 pound of powder equals 7000 grains divide that by 70.5 equals 99.29 charges minus spillage equals 97-99 reloaded cartridges or just shy of 5 boxes of ammo or 1-5 trips to the range.

Purchasing 4, 5, or 8 pound jug of powder is definitely a money and time saver.

The next variant would be if you are sighting/ zeroing your scope at the altitude you are hunting at.

My best guestimation is you shouldn't be off by more than an inch to inch and a quarter up or down and left or right just because you don't think you really need to test your 70.5 grain loads using the same powder but a different lot number. Although the center crosshairs didn't take much to correct, you discover your (bullet drop) red dots are not automatically adjusting to the center crosshairs.

And you've done reloaded 97 - 99 cartridges.

Had you taken the time to test 3 or 4 powder charges of each at 68.5, 69.5, 70.3, 71.2. You could have found the sweat charge range of 69.3 - 69.7 matched to within a half inch variations of your original 70.5 grain loads.

Do I test my loads Everytime I pick up a new lot of the same powder to reload?

No. Not when I'm hunting deer or black bear locally and I'm not shooting over 100 -150 yards.

Yes. If I'm going spending a lot of money going somewhere I'll be shooting 200+/- yards and varying altitudes compared to my locality.

Then again I go to the extremes when reloading in prep for a trip I've spent a good chunk of money for a hunt.

 

[hoytcanon]

I test every batch of loads, every time, before every hunt... even for baited bears at 20 yards or deer in the orchard.

 

[Scott CWO]

Hmmm..........let's see....

1 pound of powder equals 7000 grains divide that by 70.5 equals 99.29 charges minus spillage equals 97-99 reloaded cartridges or just shy of 5 boxes of ammo or 1-5 trips to the range.

Purchasing 4, 5, or 8 pound jug of powder is definitely a money and time saver.

The next variant would be if you are sighting/ zeroing your scope at the altitude you are hunting at.

My best guestimation is you shouldn't be off by more than an inch to inch and a quarter up or down and left or right just because you don't think you really need to test your 70.5 grain loads using the same powder but a different lot number. Although the center crosshairs didn't take much to correct, you discover your (bullet drop) red dots are not automatically adjusting to the center crosshairs.

And you've done reloaded 97 - 99 cartridges.

Had you taken the time to test 3 or 4 powder charges of each at 68.5, 69.5, 70.3, 71.2. You could have found the sweat charge range of 69.3 - 69.7 matched to within a half inch variations of your original 70.5 grain loads.

Do I test my loads Everytime I pick up a new lot of the same powder to reload?

No. Not when I'm hunting deer or black bear locally and I'm not shooting over 100 -150 yards.

Yes. If I'm going spending a lot of money going somewhere I'll be shooting 200+/- yards and varying altitudes compared to my locality.

Then again I go to the extremes when reloading in prep for a trip I've spent a good chunk of money for a hunt.

I live at 6200 feet and hunt from here up to 11,500 for elk (treeline here is 11,300) so I picked 8500 to be in the middle somewhat. I live at the base of the mountains and can be at 8500 feet in 15 minutes. I did sight it in at 8500. I picked 45F as an average temperature during the different elk seasons. It’s a .338WM for 0-500 yards, not my 6.5 GAP SAUM (Gnat Ass Precision) long range rig so not worried about small differences. This rifle has killed several elk for my son and I out to 450 yards in Colorado and Nevada and it took a lot of PG in Mozambique 2013 & 2014.

Obviously wouldn’t load 100 rounds until we’ve tested several. But once it is figured out, I will definitely want to load 100-120 rounds for hunting so I don’t have to worry about this issue again for many years, if ever. It’s just one of my rifles in the safe. Also have .22, .22-250, 6.5 GAP, .30-06, .300 WSM, .375 H&H and .458 Lott.

The rifle was tested with a ladder of loads by the gunsmith so I saw no reason to do so again. He said 70.5 was best. He’s hunted with me a lot in the USA and in Zimbabwe. He knows what he’s doing.

My son shot this elk with this rifle at 440 yards with the 400 yard dot a bit high on the shoulder. Dropped right in perfectly and elk went straight down.

My NV nontypical bull.

 

[wolfhunter]

I am not a reloader and not all that knowledgeable about reloading. Need some advice.

I've got a couple custom rifles built by a client/friend who trained under David Miller of AZ. The builder also supplied me with custom ammo for the rifles and I am about out of it. One of the rifles is a stainless .338 WM built on a Winchester M70 action with a fluted Krieger barrel. It's topped with a Leupold scope with Premier Reticle dots at 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards. The rifle was designed for high-country elk hunting in mind. The dots were aligned on the crosshair based on custom load data with Swift A-Frame 225 grain bullets at 2900 fps with a BC of .384 and environmental factors of 45F temperature and 8500 elevation.

Since I am about out of the ammo, I was talking to another guy about the load to see if he could replicate it. I told him the load details were 70.5 grains of IMR 4350, Federal 215 large magnum primers, WW brass, 3.30 OAL and 2.49 case length, as provided to me by the builder. I was told by the new guy that this load would be about 70,000 PSI and about 6000 PSI over the SAAMI max of 64,000. He also said it was probably a compressed load. I didn't know it was that hot of a load. Is this correct?

When the builder made up the rifle and ammo, he told me he had tried loads spanning from 69 grains all the way up to 71.4 and settled on the 70.5 grains as the most accurate. If 70.5 is past SAAMI, 71.4 would be much higher I think?

I haven't experienced any problems using the 70.5 grain load. I was hoping I could get a custom ammo maker to make me something close but I am wondering if anyone would if the pressure is really 70,000 PSI.

Does anyone out there have experience with driving a 225 grain A-Frame to 2900 fps, or at least 2850? My fear is that if I drop down in velocity much, the dots in the scope will be meaningless. Are there new powders that can get to 2900 fps with less pressure?

go to the federal custom shop

 

[Daggaboy375]

Watching to see what the actual velocity is on the original rounds.

DB

 

[Jefferry404]

Hey Scott,
I might be able to shed some light. I have a thread here regarding Swift A-frames and shot start pressure that will help clear things up a bit.
When I fit QL to Hodgdon data for Hornady 225sp and then use the Swift manual load data, QL was
2723 fps at 98% load density vs Swift of 2715 fps at 90% (seated to near top of cann.).
Then your load of 70.5gn seated to below the cann., OAL was 3.288, gives 2823fps at 66.4kpsi and load density of 101.4%.
Based on this, your load is at the top of the pressure range and that you might measure the bulk density of the IMR4350 powder.
Steve