Pushing through myths and misconceptions: The Push Feed Action

I cycle every round that I put in the box to take with me. The other day out of 30 A frames and 10 solids I'm taking with me to Zim, one solid didn't feel right so I "rolled another one" and put it in the box after it did.
 
I cycle every round that I put in the box to take with me. The other day out of 30 A frames and 10 solids I'm taking with me to Zim, one solid didn't feel right so I "rolled another one" and put it in the box after it did.
Been there and done that but not for such an exotic occasion. Have fun on your trip.
 
re: the push feed action, my experience:

1. the only action i have owned that have failed to extract or eject were push feeds. one was a 416 remington that failed to eject, due to the ejector clip (too small) that had worn down and would not engage the case rim

2. the button ejector on another rifle failed to eject a round was pulled back on the bolt. the issue was a button that had corroded (my fault i guess for not keeping clean enough) and it failed to bounce the empty case out because the button was rusted in place and the spring was unable to send it out because it rusted to the bolt face.

the button is not an issue with a CRF. and the larger claw would give more purchase on a case for extraction than the small extractor clip.

have yet to have an issue with a CRF action, my 2 cents. (so far have been actively hunting for 45-50 years depending on how you want to score time)
 
re: the push feed action, my experience:

1. the only action i have owned that have failed to extract or eject were push feeds. one was a 416 remington that failed to eject, due to the ejector clip (too small) that had worn down and would not engage the case rim

2. the button ejector on another rifle failed to eject a round was pulled back on the bolt. the issue was a button that had corroded (my fault i guess for not keeping clean enough) and it failed to bounce the empty case out because the button was rusted in place and the spring was unable to send it out because it rusted to the bolt face.

the button is not an issue with a CRF. and the larger claw would give more purchase on a case for extraction than the small extractor clip.

have yet to have an issue with a CRF action, my 2 cents. (so far have been actively hunting for 45-50 years depending on how you want to score time)
I understand the reasoning for your preference for CRF, but the failures you described were very much avoidable.

The worn down ejector clip that you described as "too small" must have been just fine for quite a while in order to become worn down to the point of failure. Could a CRF handle the same number of cartridges under the same conditions? Could it handle being snapped over the rim of every cartridge ever loaded into the the chamber and not expect to be worn? Hard to say.

Then the case of a rusted button ejector. IMO easily avoidable. Although I would say that the blade ejector of a CRF rifle is not going to have this issue.

With all due respect to you (hunting and guiding the wilds of Alaska), isn't that even more of a reason to be taking the absolute best care of a firearm? It hardly seems fair to lay the blame at the feet of a PF action for the problems you encountered.

Choose whichever action you want for whatever reasons you want. Neglect either of them and there will be repercussions for that neglect.
 
With all due respect to you (hunting and guiding the wilds of Alaska), isn't that even more of a reason to be taking the absolute best care of a firearm? It hardly seems fair to lay the blame at the feet of a PF action for the problems you encountered.

sir, you are not wrong...to a degree.

first, this was not an attempt to dirt shirt ANYBODY'S favorite rifle! thats a lot like insulting a guys wife, favorite hunting dog or kid. NOT my intention. simply my personal experience, compared to some is considerable, compared to others i am a rank beginner.

second, in hind sight (which is always 20/20) you are right the rusted ejector button COULD have been caught before it became a problem. lucky for me, i found it out at the rifle range, not in a sticky situation. I actually am pretty good about checking my rifles after the days hunting (when guiding especially) because we are in a marine environment and my guns always get salt water spray on them.

by using a blade ejector (CRF gun) i am merely engineering that potential problem out of the equation. my uncle told me that if a man made it and its mechanical, it is going to break at some point, he was not wrong.

regarding the ejector claw, of course one could have it break at any time. the claw on my ruger is large, has worked every time, much more robust than the PF exctractor that failed (also at the gun range) the truth is that up to that point in my life i had actually given almost NO thought at all for an ejection failure because i had never seen one in my life. again, by using a CRF design, i felt like i was engineering a problem out of the equation.

anybody that wants to use a PF action, especially on dangerous game, i say have at it. the problems i had were mine, only mine and a small representation considering the rounds that i have sent down range. not my intent to continue any myths, simply my personal experiences. i just don't want a problem that is easily fixable by simply using the CRF design.

lastly, regarding the neglect of a rifle, yeah i've been guilty of that too. most neglect was accidental (like how many times does ANYBODY check their button ejector on their bolt?) generally i am careful but by using stainless steel guns that are CRF, i get a bit of grace in that department as well. I recently bought a 458 win from a member of this site, that is blued steel. it is a mauser 98 style, blue steel, wood stock rifle. i am putting a synthetic stock on it, and am likely going to paint the rifle to help as an anti corrosion effort. i did this 35 years ago on a remington 700, long before cerrakote was available and it worked well.

again, my last words on the subject, if a guy wants to use a PF rifle for dangerous game, good on ya. my very few issues with them made me go down a different trail.
 
@1dirthawker
I get it and have complete respect for you and your opinion.
May your hand be steady and shots ring true.
Best wishes on the upcoming Bear season.
 
i have had trouble with win 70 style ejector, but on a dakota 76.
this would apply to a number of actions with the same style ejector including the brno 600 series.
i was using an oil that could go gummy with time, and it made the popping up of the ejector lazy.
as the bolt came back with the empty case, it went past the ejector before it had fully risen, leaving the case trapped in the claw.
once i discovered this, i changed oils and cleaned it and re oiled it after storage, and never a problem since.
this does not reflect on dakota or the system, rather on me for being slack.
bruce.
 
I am the other kind of stupid, the kind that takes nothing at face value and seldom believe everything unless I have tried it or done it myself, in short I like to learn the hard way. Up until a few years ago I believed that the CRF rifle was superior in many, many ways to the Push feed rifle, too many books and opinions were taken as the gospel as far as the topic was concerned, I don't know how it came about, it may just have been that stubborn streak of mine, but for the past six years I have tried to break the mold on the superiority of the CRF rifle in my mind. What I have found is limited to rifles I have owned or rifles that I have used extensively, it is not hear say it is thousands upon thousands of rounds of testing and observation. I own several rifles, both in CRF and Push feed, each of them have a specific task and they all get the job done, both types have let me down and both types have never failed me, below is my take on a few misconceptions out there regarding Push Feed rifles.


Let’s start with the most common reason for the anti push feed rifles, reliability. The simple reason for Mauser type rifles being seen as unstoppable lies in the design, you just need to pick up a old M98 and open the bolt to find it is probably one of the most sloppy and loose bolts you will ever find on a rifle, the amount of bolt movement left, right, up and down is simply astounding, but close that bolt and it locks up as tight as a vault. The ability for the CRF rifle to function under the most extreme conditions is exactly its design features; the tolerances are tight in the only area it matters, the lock up. Dust, dirt, mud and other things simply do not jam the action it needs less maintenance to keep going. No doubt that it will keep working with almost no maintenance and that use to be its great selling point, times have unfortunately changed. There are very few rifle owners around that do not take care of their rifles, many clients now bring along rifle cleaning equipment and almost daily take care of their rifles before the next day’s hunt. In short rifles do not receive the pounding they did years and years ago. I have yet to see a clients rifle fail while hunting.

I have seen Sako/Tikka rifles run strings of 2000 rounds with no cleaning except for a wipe down. The same rifles had their barrels cleaned for the first time at around 4000 rounds, at no stage was the action cleaned up until the rifles were retired at 12 000 rounds. The only failures that come to mind was the plastic magazine of the Tikka that stopped feeding. Setback on the Tikka recoil lug, a common problem with the standard aluminum recoil lug. The rifles were all fired in rapid strings of 20 to 40 shots per session, time in between strings was around 5 minutes. I ran another CRF gun next to the Sako/Tikka rifles, after 2400 rounds it failed to eject, new extractor was fitted and gave no problems after that, rifle retired at 4000 rounds. I have had a new Sako fail to eject and I have had a new CZ fail to feed.


It is common to hear that a CRF rifle will feed upside down and at any other possible angle you may find yourself in, unfortunately it is not only the CRF that will feed like that, the Push feed action will do exactly the same, I have tried this with Sako, Tikka and Sauer rifles, they feed at any angle.


Then there is the good old argument that during reloading the CRF action will hold the cartridge in place when the shooter is swinging the rifle from left to right or the other way around, now I have tried on more than one occasion to purposely make a loose round drop out the Push feed action rifle by swinging it both left and right. I tried this both slow and fast, what always happens is that the force generated by the swing forces the cartridge to travel forward and into the chamber of the rifle, if anything it only assists the push feed rifle.


Another common argument for the CRF action is that it is stronger than the Push feed action. I find it very hard to believe by simply comparing a CRF rifle next to a Push Feed rifle you will notice that the Push Feed rifle has way more metal around the body, often just the ejector port cut out that stops the Push feed action from being totally enclosed, compared to the CRF there is way more metal to take the stress on a Push feed action.


Push feed rifles are inherently more accurate than CRF rifles, although this has very little impact in hunting situations. Both are more than accurate enough in a given caliber for hunting it all will come down to the ability of the shooter. I owned a FN Mauser action rifle that would shoot 10mm 5 shot groups at 100 meters and have a Push feed rifle that shoots 3mm 5 shot groups at 100 meters. The Push feed action normally has a far larger bottom surface area which makes it easier and more stable to bed. As above the enclosed action is also more rigged, making it a more stable platform to launch a bullet from.


All Push feed actions are not created equal, I owned a Sauer 202 rifle that was the smoothest action I have ever had the pleasure to shoot, no doubt the smoothness was due to the very tight tolerances within the action and the full size bolt body.. The same thing that made it good, also made it bad, a bit of dust and dirt and the action would grind closed and it would feel like I was dragging a spade across a concrete surface. The Sako and Tikka rifles I own have a more mechanical smoothness, it is simply because they run on the lugs and have an undersized bolt body, dirt and dust does not affect them in the same way it did the Sauer. Another example of tolerances being too tight was with a Steyr Mannlicher rifle, due to extreme climate changes and humidity, the wood stock managed to distort in such a way that it cracked both the trigger guard and magazine to such an extent that the rifle was useless, it did not help that they were in plastic.


For all the good things a CRF brings to the table, it also has some short comings when it is compared to the modern Push feed actions. It has longer lock time and takes more skill to shoot more accurately. Bolt throw cannot compare to the latest offerings in Push Feed rifles and in general scopes can be mounted lower on Push Feed rifles. Follow up shots are quicker with a Push feed than with a CRF rifle, I can bang 4 rounds down range with a split time of 1,24sec with a Push feed, it takes me 1,6sec to do the same with a CRF in the same caliber, this is for aimed shots at 80 meters. Push Feed actions come in specific caliber size actions, Sako make actions caliber specific in length, most CRF actions come either in Medium or Magnum actions, rifles can be built lighter on caliber specific actions.


I agree the non rotating extractor on a CRF is hard to beat with a sticky case; you are also less likely to double feed with a CRF action if you short stroke the bolt. It is far easier to load a CRF action from the top without taking your eyes off the target than trying to get a round into the narrow ejection port of a Push feed action. It is also easier to get your fingers into a CRF action if there is a problem than with a Push Feed action, that is if you do not have a scope mounted. There is no doubt in my mind that there are advantages to both types of actions just as there are disadvantages to both. The gap is however not as great as many make it out to be. The best would be to know your rifle and stick with it.
All good points. As long as they are reliable either works for me; and I own both types. Alas, now there is somewhat of a hybrid! I have two of those rifles as well. As long as you don’t short stroke and keep the rifle level, both types usually get the job done effectively. Besides, in the moment of truth mishaps will occur on occasion. The best safeguard is having another person as a backup. In particular when hunting dangerous game. A practice African hunters engage in regularly. Good post.
 
I’ll 100 % agree with the statement that not all push feed rifles are created equally. When I began big game hunting in the early 1970s (with my first African safari being to Kenya in 1974), push feed rifles were everywhere and only two CRF rifles were being produced at the time (the Czech BRNO ZKK series and the Serbian Interarms Mark X series).

The negative press associated with push feed rifles, actually stems from extraction issues with two very specific rifles: the Remington Model 700 and the post ‘64 Winchester Model 70. And yes, these rifles actually DID have extraction issues. I personally had a Remington Model 700 (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum) fail to extract a spent cartridge (a 300 Gr Remington round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid) after the extractor broke, while on safari in 1979. The extractor is simply too small for cases as large as the .375. The small extractor of the Remington Model 700 and big cases such as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, are NOT a good combination. Especially in hot weather conditions. No less than three of my white hunters also reported extraction failures with push feed Winchester Model 70 rifles (mostly in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, but also .458 Winchester Magnum) in dusty conditions. Another push feed rifle which was ill reputed for being plagued with extraction issues, was the Mauser Model 66.

Now, let’s talk about another push feed rifle action with a reputation for immense reliability: The old British B.S.A Majestic. It had a rather small looking extractor on one side of the bolt face, operated by a coil spring. The B.S.A Majestic bolt had a good sized extractor, rimming nearly a third of the bolt face circumference … spring loaded but able to move outwards and over the cartridge head when pushed against it in the chamber. The ejector was a plunger type in the bolt face. Despite being a push feed, these rifles extracted EXTREMELY reliably under all circumstances. Good old British engineering, perhaps. The B.S.A Majestic (in .458 Winchester Magnum) was the backup rifle of choice of my life’s first white hunter (Joe Cheffings) and he had an immense amount of confidence in the reliability of the rifle. It was also the backup rifle of choice of Lionell Palmer. Unfortunately, B.S.A manufactured these rifles with beastly muzzle brakes and only in five calibers (.243 Winchester, .270 Winchester, .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield and .458 Winchester Magnum).

So, yes. It depends on the TYPE of push feed action being used, rather than whether or not the action is a push feed. Making blanket statements that all push feed actions are unreliable, is not accurate.
 
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