Push Feed rifles..???

[mark-hunter]

So whats wrong with them??

You are aware that you are on the mainly conservative controlled round feed community forum, and you are opening a can of worms here?

LOL

its nothing wrong with quality push feed rifle.
So which one is better CRF or PF rifle?
I will not go into specifics of each action, as you will find those on this forum, or internet or you tube in more details.

I will try to provide a wider perspective:

This debate started in sixties when Winchester made push feed m70, and in the same time Remington made its big entry of theirs rem 700. Remington 700 made its name as a sniper rifle in Vietnam war and proved its value, in harsh war conditions.

However debate of which is better, or more reliable remained till today.
This debate spread on internet, and remained active, without conclusion till today.

Remington 700 is also most copied action in many rifles, especially in long range shooting community. (easy to make)
Mauser proved it self as a battle rifle in two world wars, and unaccountable dangerous games safaris.

Thus, till today, remained a myth: CRF is more reliable, and PF is more accurate.
But this is just a myth.

Popularity of PF and demise of CRF from budget market is far more simple. CRF action is more expensive to produce, and so the factories were phasing out CRF production, exchanging it for more economic PF designs.

Some notable cases of commercial flaws in CRF or PF:

PF:
Few years ago, Remington lost a case on its rem 700 trigger, which was sued that it causes accidental discharges. If true, it is about trigger, not the action.

Latest model of CZ (Zbrojovka) CZ 600, push feed, had a safety recall, but this was not about action itself, it was about changeability of barrel, or modular system that caused safety concern, and then a recall.

CRF.
Modern zastava m70, mauser clone, in modern production on occasion has a problem with feeding, when magazine is full (5 rounds).
However it is about fit and finish and quality control, worn out factory machinery, and underpaid work force, not about CRF action itself.

Where CRF can not be beaten?
In elite and celebrity hunters community. If you order a bolt action rifle from any of the elite workshops of the world, mainly in US or Europe, it will be CRF mauser 98 type rifle, gold inlays, exotic wood, hand fitted to your specification. Definitely it will not be Remington 700 action. Royalty of the world does not shoot PF rifles.
So CRF can be presented as luxury high quality item as well.

My experience.
In my inventory I have push feed rifles, modern controlled feed rifle (sako 85), and classic mauser 98 CRF action. All of them shoot fine. No issues. I enjoy shooting each one of them.

Rifle for safari, 3 most common choices:
double rifle
bolt action CRF rifle
Push feed rifle: blaser r8 (But r8 is much more then that, making a CRF and PF debate obsolete)
I have a feeling that majority of hunters on this forum will fall in one of this 3 groups, by 80%.

Later edit:
Being intrigued by debate PF and CRF, i tried to check realibility of each system by testing everything I could imagine with dummy rounds.
Basically, I could shoot and cycle in any positions including upside down, and I was able to jam both systems by short stroke. In order to use proficiently and safely each system, you have to be familiar and trained with your specific rifle. There is no such thing as a fool proof rifle.

 

[RayAtkinson]

well in push feed if you are running to get a second shot at a wounded animal or just an escaping trophy and work the action to be ready the round will fall out in many cases and I've seen that happen more than a few times in my 40 plus years in the hunting biz. Do yourself a favor don't risk a trophy over an expensive safari with a cheap push feed gun. and yes I lost the elk of a lifetime over a Rem 700. Go with a mod 70 Win or a 98 Mauser or even a Ruger Hawkeye..

 

[mark-hunter]

and work the action to be ready the round will fall out in many cases and I've seen that happen more than a few times in my 40 plus years in the hunting biz.

Can you provide some more details? How this happens?

 

[Huntsmans Bane]

I prefer CRF because that is what I grew up with. Many gun writers hinted that the only CRF was super reliable and suitable for a Dangerous Game Rifle.

I think that is hogwash, even though my Mod. 70's are CRF rifles. I have used both push feed and CRF with out issue. If a man knows his rifle and it is of good design then both work well.

Harry Selby is about as famous as an African Pro Hunter can be. After his famous Mauser .416 Rigby was run over by a helper it was sent in for a new barrel. He used a push feed Mod. 70 .458 Win. Mag. and liked it so much he kept using it after the .416 was repaired. He evidently had complete confidence in it.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Not all push feed rifles are created equally. When I first began big game hunting in the early 1970s (with my first African safari being to Kenya in 1974), push feed rifles were everywhere and only two CRF rifles were being produced at the time (the Czech BRNO ZKK series and the Serbian Interarms Mark X series).

The negative press associated with push feed rifles, actually stems from extraction issues with two very specific rifles: the Remington Model 700 and the post ‘64 Winchester Model 70. And yes, these rifles actually DID have extraction issues. I personally had a Remington Model 700 (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum) fail to extract a spent cartridge (a 300Gr Remington round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid) after the extractor broke, while on safari in 1979. It's also been documented to occur on multiple occasions with the Remington Model 700 rifles chambered in .416 Remington Magnum. The extractor is simply too small for cases as large as the .375. The small extractor of the Remington Model 700 and big cases such as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, are NOT a good combination. Especially in hot weather conditions. No less than three of my white hunters also reported extraction failures with push feed Winchester Model 70 rifles (mostly in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, but also .458 Winchester Magnum) in dusty conditions. Another push feed rifle which was ill reputed for being plagued with extraction issues, was the Mauser Model 66.

One of my white hunters (Mr. Con Van Wyk) was actually badly mauled by a wounded lion in 1988 when he had decided to spoor it with is post '64 Winchester Model 70 in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum (loaded with 300Gr Winchester Silver Tip soft nosed cartridges). The first 2 shots did him no good. One of those beastly Silver Tip bullets had actually disintegrated upon striking one of the lion's front teeth. When he attempted to cycle the bolt in order to give the cat a 3rd shot, the extractor failed and the lion began to maul him. Fortunately the lion's jaw had been broken by Mr. Wyk's client's bullet, which prevented the creature from being able to seriously wound Mr. Wyk. One of his trackers was able to save him by shooting the lion in the back of the head with another rifle (a .300 Holland & Holland pre '64 Winchester Model 70).

Now, let’s talk about another push feed rifle action with a reputation for immense reliability: The old British B.S.A Majestic. It had a rather small looking extractor on one side of the bolt face, operated by a coil spring. The B.S.A Majestic bolt had a good sized extractor, rimming nearly a third of the bolt face circumference … spring loaded but able to move outwards and over the cartridge head when pushed against it in the chamber. The ejector was a plunger type in the bolt face. Despite being a push feed, these rifles extracted EXTREMELY reliably under all circumstances. Good old British engineering, perhaps. The B.S.A Majestic (in .458 Winchester Magnum) was the backup rifle of choice of my life’s first white hunter (Joe Cheffings) and he had an immense amount of confidence in the reliability of the rifle. It was also the backup rifle of choice of Lionell Palmer. Unfortunately, B.S.A manufactured these rifles with beastly muzzle brakes and only in five calibers (.243 Winchester, .270 Winchester, .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield and .458 Winchester Magnum).

Modern push feed rifles such as the German Blaser R-8 or the Danish Schultz & Larsen Ambassador are also extremely reliable.

So, yes. It depends on the TYPE of push feed action being used, rather than whether or not the action is a push feed. Making blanket statements that all push feed actions are unreliable, is definitely not accurate.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I prefer CRF because that is what I grew up with. Many gun writers hinted that the only CRF was super reliable and suitable for a Dangerous Game Rifle.

I think that is hogwash, even though my Mod. 70's are CRF rifles. I have used both push feed and CRF with out issue. If a man knows his rifle and it is of good design then both work well.

Harry Selby is about as famous as an African Pro Hunter can be. After his famous Mauser .416 Rigby was run over by a helper it was sent in for a new barrel. He used a push feed Mod. 70 .458 Win. Mag. and liked it so much he kept using it after the .416 was repaired. He evidently had complete confidence in it.

I'm afraid the part about Harry Selby is not accurate. It was his John Rigby & Co. boxlock ejector in .470 Nitro Express which was run over accidentally by Donald Kerr with a Land Rover (causing the rifle to get irreparably destroyed). And this led Harry to purchase his infamous John Rigby & Co. Mauser in .416 Rigby.

His .416 Rigby had it's rifling get completely shot out during the 1970s and he had it sent to London to be rebarrelled... A process which took two years. During those two years, he did use a push feed Winchester Model 70 in .458 Winchester Magnum but only because that was the only loaner big bore rifle which was available in his Safari camp. As soon as his beloved .416 Rigby came back to him, he switched back to it and never touched the .458 Winchester Magnum again. He kept using the .416 Rigby until he retired.

Harry did have a healthy respect for the push feed Winchester Model 70 and the .458 Winchester Magnum. But to quote him "Comparing this rifle to my .416 Rigby was like comparing chalk & cheese".

 

[BeeMaa]

well in push feed if you are running to get a second shot at a wounded animal or just an escaping trophy and work the action to be ready the round will fall out in many cases and I've seen that happen more than a few times in my 40 plus years in the hunting biz. Do yourself a favor don't risk a trophy over an expensive safari with a cheap push feed gun. and yes I lost the elk of a lifetime over a Rem 700. Go with a mod 70 Win or a 98 Mauser or even a Ruger Hawkeye..

Can you provide some more details? How this happens?

I too would love to hear about how the action failed exactly and was not some sort of operator error or lack of maintenance.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

If you are hanging upside down by your toes, in a tree, whilst slowly chambering a round so as not to spook the game animal, that may or may not eat you, then a CRF is useful, otherwise it is not a very good argument. Any failures to extract or chamber a round would tend to point to user error over feed system, as both are reliable. Every one acts differently under pressure and blaming the feed system is not really a valid point. I’m not saying that there aren’t faulty rifles that fail, or ammo that is dodgy. I think knowing the rifle and being confident in its use, and reliability, is probably more important than the way it feeds
And I use both PF and CRF rifles and having been charged by a wild rampaging rabbit I was glad to have a PF....I still get flash backs of those huge snapping teeth, it’s cute little nose, it’s obvious blood lust......

The therapy is helping
gumpy


and yes, I am treating the whole argument as a pointless joke.....except the rabbit....that was real, I’d trodden in a hole and was up to the top of my thigh when the stupid thing ran straight at me, the two people I was with laughed at me, I could have died.....