President Obama

[Pheroze]

Jerome, we need a new forum please: divisive discussion/ politics, religion and calibers.

I find this stuff fascinating because the world is getting smaller an cultures are mingling. The USA is being influenced more from other countries than ever before in history. I am going to pick up that book Velo Dog.

Saul, I did read your post. There is a lot in there. I think we are agreed that we want a society that is fair to each persons circumstances. But, how of much of my responsibility to my neighbor do I delegate to the government?

The American constitution was written to control absolute power not to empower the state. That is why it is such a brilliant document, considering it was written several hundreds of years ago when there was no equality and Kings could cut your head off. When you go back and read the Federalist Papers you can see the fractious debate about whether to even have a central government. Great stuff! But, I think we are seeing a cultural shift in politics. A nanny state is a new idea (post WWII) and I do not think even Thomas Hobbes considered it when he wrote the Leviathan advocating for a strong central government. I personally blame the Baby Boomers

Europe has a political culture that looks to the government to intervene more on personal planning issues and the government taxes accordingly. While I believe Norway and Germany are doing fine Spain, Greece, Portugal etc not so much. And, how do we factor China and India into this? One is a communist government with a capitalist economy and the other is a democratic country with a socialist economy. Both are growing. Egads!!

And, I think the 375 H&H is over rated (umm just kidding...maybe....actually confused about that one...)

 

[lcq]

Bissonnette writes less flatteringly of meeting Vice President Joe Biden along with Obama at the headquarters of the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment after the raid. He says Biden told "lame jokes" no one understood, reminding him of "someone's drunken uncle at Christmas dinner."

Pretty much sums up Barry and Joe

 

[enysse]

Hillary actually admit in a campaign to a totally gun ban and end of hunting....lol

I guess I wish politians would follow the constitution. Let people have their guns. I'm more for religious freedoms as long as people stay out of the endangered species act, hunting and guns. I am fine if some one wants to marry their dog...lol. Abortion rights, I'm willing to leave the current system in place...it was earned awhile back.

 

[lcq]

Hillary actually admit in a campaign to a totally gun ban and end of hunting....lol

I guess I wish politians would follow the constitution. Let people have their guns. I'm more for religious freedoms as long as people stay out of the endangered species act, hunting and guns. I am fine if some one wants to marry their dog...lol. Abortion rights, I'm willing to leave the current system in place...it was earned awhile back.

That liberal is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until all your guns are gone

 

[CAustin]

Old Hope and Change just finished speaking her in Kansas City where I live on the Kansas side. I'm out at the airport waiting on my delayed flight to leave as Air Force One sits across the runway at the old TWA building. I don't care who rides in that thing when you see it it makes you proud to be American. The plane and what it stands for....not the individual flown in it.
Now this guy who will be be flown on it today is in my mind just running around the country giving one stumps speach after another and not staying in Washington where he belongs to work with Congress and not vilify them in fund raiding speeches!
Someone said it .....America wouldn't listen to a real leader who told them all the social programs we pay for will put us in bankrupt city!
Obama got one thing right in his speech today....."don't booh, VOTE". I suggest everyone that can vote do so in the upcoming house and senate races.

 

[ActionBob]

Barry Obama - by his actions - is a Communist.

Like Lenin, Stalin, Castro and Putin, etc., his actions indicate that he hates the USA and longs to see her on her knees.

I do not agree that Obama is a true communist... I think he is much worse because he wants to disguise what he really believes and desires... Which is summed by the comment about hating the USA..... Not so sure he hates the USA as much as hates what it has stood for (maybe that is one and the same)... But the big point I'm trying to highlight from the above quote is that "Actions always speak louder than words". Obama's actions do not line up at all with what he says...

Don't take this the wrong way (I don't see Obama doing all the evil and murdering people or taking over other countries, but I wonder if the historical leader he has the most in common with in the way he accomplishes his goals is Hitler! Hitler circumvented the political process to take power... He may not have had a cell phone, but he had pulpit and a pen and used it. He "took" power by intimidating and doing what he wanted to and ignoring any laws that got in his way. He ignored and ultimately disbanded the German equivalent of Congress. He pulled all power into the Chancellery by coercion and out right lies. He believed you could tall a lie as long as it was so big and as long as he and his cronies stuck to it that it became the accepted "truth". He had as one of his main agencies the Propaganda Ministry. Obama has the liberal media filling this role voluntarily!

I agree the Republicans are all we have to pull this Country back on track but I also agree they need to uphold our freedoms... Bush and Rumsfeld starting the Department of Homeland Security feels an awful lot like the Gestapo! And all the intruding on privacy by both the present and last administrations has proven that the terrorists have already won if their goal was to take away the Freedoms America has always stood for.

Reality is that the Hard Core Republicans need to see the writing on the wall and moderate on a few issues and work to build people up rather than piss them off.... If Romney had embraced or at least remained neutral on the Immigration issue, he would be President... Bush the younger understood immigration and wanted to solve it but the extreme right of his party would not let him. Had Romney received the portion of the Hispanic vote that Bush did, he would have beat Obama. Without at least a respectable portion of the Hispanic vote, we will not have another Republican President... Presidential elections are completely different than any other in the USA. We can get a Republican Senate and keep a Republican House, but we cannot get a Republican President as long as the Republican candidate is so hard core against Hispanics... They have bred out Blacks as the predominant minority. There is a term referred to as the Browning of America. This is not a thing that is up for debate, it is reality.

Immigrants do not take American jobs. That may be the biggest lie of politicians. Immigrants do the jobs American's refuse to do. And by doing those jobs they "create" other jobs, usually higher paying jobs. It has always been this way whether Irish, Chinese, or Mexican or whatever.

I am totally confused and pissed off by MY Republican Party for not embracing these people. I know a lot of them, most are NOT gangsters and drug dealers. The average Hispanic is a devout religious person, hard working, conservative with his money, and family oriented. Does that sound like a what a Republican is supposed to be? There have been studies about the different generations in the USA. I am one of the "Baby Boomers" but probably don't represent my generation real well. I think we all owe a huge debt, gratitude and respect for the "Greatest Generation". They are the ones who survived the Great Depression, won World War II and basically saved democracy and probably the World as we know it.

When Mexicans immigrate to this country, socially they have the most in common with that Greatest Generation... and then their kids skip forward right into the current generation of kids their age! But that is a symptom of society and schooling.

Oh yea! And the 375 IS the greatest all around Caliber for Africa, and the 30-06 is the greatest cartridge of all time most everywhere else!

 

[sestoppelman]

ActionBob, I don't think our party is against Hispanics or any other group of people. What they are against is any group coming to this country illegally! And so am I. When you say the immigration issue, what are you talking about? Legal immigration or coming across the Rio Grande in an inner tube? Should we just tell the Border Patrol to go home and go pick beans? Legal immigration is fine. When you allow all the illegals to come over and then STAY, how fair is that to the ones trying to do the right thing and immigrate legally? I don't think you have thought this thru all the way.

 

[ActionBob]

sestoppelman;
Well somebody is going to have to pick the beans! (just kidding, well they do need picking)

You are absolutely correct and I agree in principal. But the system is broken and needs fixing. The Visas needed and the Quotas needed are not allowed in the current system. It is antiquated and needs fixing. Many laws are updated regularly to fit the need. The immigration laws have not been updated for todays realities and that has created these problems.

The Politically Correct Visa system we now have allows for some educated people to come in, student workers or trainees, and a few seasonal workers but that is so cumbersome it does not function well at best and is not legal in most cases. We have doctors, dentists and even priests coming in legally. However it is nearly impossible and in many cases IS impossible for people to come in for the base level jobs. And those are the ones that no one else will do. and those are the most dis-enfranchised people in their home countries.... Thus they have strong incentive to come here and skirt the system as much as they can. The system has to be fixed to allow for a reasonable quota of people to come in and fill those jobs.... Otherwise as long as there is demand, they will keep coming. Legally fill the need and they will not have the strong compelling reason to come illegally. Enforcement will never be able to stop the tide without a reasonable legal system to fill the demand. The Hard core line of secure the border first and then we will fix immigration is a way to ensure nothing is ever done. It has to be "comprehensive" and all be brought together.... Of course that will not happen until we have a real leader able to reach across the aisle and get it done... I thought Bush was going to be that guy but he caved in to far right... And his timing was terrible with bigger issues (attacks and resulting wars) taking main stage.... Now we are in such an irreversible standoff with this present guy just not being able to lead his way out of a wet paper sack. But he does seem perfectly willing to dictate.

To the point of the discussion.... The real issue regarding presidential politics is, legal or not, the hard core stance that Romney took assured he would not get enough of the Hispanic vote to get elected and reality is that any candidate who takes that type of stance will not garner enough of the vote to become President in the foreseeable future ... And the Dems know this and count on being able to exploit the Republican hard core on this. The only ones who can take this issue away from the liberals is the conservatives reversing their stance on it. I do believe this one issue is what will keep a Republican out of the Presidency next time.

The 2010 sweep of the House by Republicans was somewhat a result of Obama failing to have enacted immigration reform and ticking off the Hispanics who voted for him. But then when Romney made threats to that whole segment of society (he said he would make it so miserable in this country for them that they would want to leave) that is really family to many of the legal Hispanics, who do vote. It ensured their loyalty went back to Obama.

I don't know what is happening in Congress right now. But if Obama does administratively somehow "legalize" millions when Congress fails to do anything, he just may assure the Dems another 4 years in the Whitehouse. Unless the Republicans somehow can soften their approach in the little time they have left before the next election. It ticks me off that the Republican Party as a whole allows itself to keep falling back into this trap.

Another point no one talks about. For the most part these people find a way to work somewhat legally. And the vast majority are paying into the employment tax system. The numbers I have been told by a CPA friend (who admittedly is a Democrat); There is about $30,000,000,000 (Billion) paid in annually just to the Social Security system by these people who will never be able to pull anything back out.... Most of them will go home to retire on their savings. There is a very strong financial incentive for the government to continue the status quo... Maybe do enough enforcement to gather headlines, but they do not really want to solve the issue... And neither would most Americans if they understood the math... It gets discussed that immigrants may get some government benefits, but they pay in a lot more than they take out.

 

[Saul]

Those are some very good points ActionBob about immigration, and I agree with most of what you said. I do think, also, that immigrants should take the legal route. My parents immigrated from Hungary legally to the united states and it is not fair for other people to skirt around the process. Having said that, it is also not fair to reject all of the hardworking Mexican families on the grounds that they are working class.

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of Romney's campaign failures. I know that when he first started campaigning in the primaries, I thought that I would vote for him for sure. Then, he let himself be forced into taking a hardcore conservative stance against all of the social principles I care about. He was just another Obama but for the other side. I also think he would have been the president to enact gun control. Say what you want about Biden, but it is good to have a gun owner so close to the President.

A point no one has made so far about immigration is the fact that if, as a small business, i can lower my bottom line by hiring illegal immigrants in large numbers, I can exponentially increase my profit. More profits mean more profitable businesses and hiring more employees, especially in managerial roles. Who are the first people to get raised if a company does well and the first to get fired if there is not enough profit? It's anyone in a managerial position. Now, no illegal immigrant is going to get a job as a manager or CIO at a small business, so they will never make big bucks, but Americans will be. These Americans will turn around and support the economy. What we have right here is another successful American business.

 

[sestoppelman]

So Saul and ActionBob sound like open border guys to me, Saul for sure since he is apparently more concerned with his business bottom line than whether or not the laws of this country are being adhered to! What a bunch of hogwash! I cant believe what I am seeing here.

I am getting a little tired of hearing about the hard right of the Republican party too. We may as well just send the BP home, open the borders and let every person in the world come here and work for SAUL so he can make more money!! Enjoy!! WOW!!

 

[Saul]

So Saul and ActionBob sound like open border guys to me, Saul for sure since he is apparently more concerned with his business bottom line than whether or not the laws of this country are being adhered to! What a bunch of hogwash! I cant believe what I am seeing here.

I am getting a little tired of hearing about the hard right of the Republican party too. We may as well just send the BP home, open the borders and let every person in the world come here and work for SAUL so he can make more money!! Enjoy!! WOW!!

Wow is right. Everythin you have said about me in this entire thread has been completely off base. Just to clear things up, I do not run a small business. I work in the corporate consulting world and deal with businesses all of the time, though. The whole point of my post was to show that there are many elements of these problems and nothing is as cut and dry as politicians make it sound. As I said earlier in my post, I personally believe in legal immigration only.

You have called me a "libtard" and someone brainwashed by the left, but nothing is farther from the truth.

Socially, I am definitely a liberal. I think that most republicans (no conservatives) and libertarians can be classified as social liberals because you either support personal social freedoms (liberal) or you support strict religious morals (conservative). If you fall into the religious conservative group, there is no changing your mind on issues like gay marriage, so I won't even try.

Fiscally, my personal views are very conservative. I believe in rewarding hard work and not punishing the rich by making us pay for people who are too lazy to work themselves. No one got rich by sitting on their ass all day and taking handouts. You make an honest living by working hard and you get rich my being smart with your money.

Now you may say that these personal views differ from my political views that I have stated before, and this is 100% true. Even though I personally disagree with certain political decisions (welfare and high taxes on the upper class for example) I still support then politically because I logically see the benefit to society as a whole. I see it as a necessary evil. I don't like it but I see the benefit. Sort of like getting a cavity drilled.

What I see as a logical fiscal solution at this moment in America usually sides with the democratic party. This is only because of the current state of the economy. In my opinion, a democratic fiscal agenda benefits a country during an economic downturn and a republican fiscal agenda in an economic boom. As soon as the economy picks up, I will change my stances of fiscal politics to logically fit the current state of the country. There is no one size fits all answer and you have to adapt to what makes sense in each instance.

 

[sestoppelman]

Well we sure can see how the current liberal plan is working, not so much. Slowest recovery in 40 years, most people on welfare, most people on food stamps, most people on disability, lowest labor participation rate in 35 years, trillion dollar stimulus that failed, highest ever national debt, Obamacare that is and will fail and ruin whats left of the health care system. Add to that all of Obama's scandals, Fast and Furious, IRS targeting, NSA, VA, Border scandal, losing the peace in Iraq, "red line" in Syria, Benghazi failure of Obama and HILLARY. indecision on the Keystone Pipeline, loss of respect around the world. So sure go ahead, keep telling yourself how great being a libtard is. When there is nothing left of the country but half the population on some sort of govt handout, you just keep (drinking the KoolAid) and go on working to pay for it all. I am retired. You liberals are so easy to see thru, Come off all smart and reasonable sounding. What a joke. Liberals are ruining the country and that's all there is to it.

 

[IdaRam]

In an effort to inject a little levity, these have been gathering dust for too long.

Carry on

 

[sestoppelman]

Right on!!

 

[Big5]

Well we sure can see how the current liberal plan is working, not so much. Slowest recovery in 40 years, most people on welfare, most people on food stamps, most people on disability, lowest labor participation rate in 35 years, trillion dollar stimulus that failed, highest ever national debt, Obamacare that is and will fail and ruin whats left of the health care system. Add to that all of Obama's scandals, Fast and Furious, IRS targeting, NSA, VA, Border scandal, losing the peace in Iraq, "red line" in Syria, Benghazi failure of Obama and HILLARY. indecision on the Keystone Pipeline, loss of respect around the world. So sure go ahead, keep telling yourself how great being a libtard is. When there is nothing left of the country but half the population on some sort of govt handout, you just keep (drinking the KoolAid) and go on working to pay for it all. I am retired. You liberals are so easy to see thru, Come off all smart and reasonable sounding. What a joke. Liberals are ruining the country and that's all there is to it.

Very well said.

 

[ActionBob]

Well we sure can see how the current liberal plan is working, not so much. Slowest recovery in 40 years, most people on welfare, most people on food stamps, most people on disability, lowest labor participation rate in 35 years, trillion dollar stimulus that failed, highest ever national debt, Obamacare that is and will fail and ruin whats left of the health care system. Add to that all of Obama's scandals, Fast and Furious, IRS targeting, NSA, VA, Border scandal, losing the peace in Iraq, "red line" in Syria, Benghazi failure of Obama and HILLARY. indecision on the Keystone Pipeline, loss of respect around the world. So sure go ahead, keep telling yourself how great being a libtard is. When there is nothing left of the country but half the population on some sort of govt handout, you just keep (drinking the KoolAid) and go on working to pay for it all. I am retired. You liberals are so easy to see thru, Come off all smart and reasonable sounding. What a joke. Liberals are ruining the country and that's all there is to it.

I pretty much agree with all this. I think I had pointed out there is drastic difference between what Obama says and what he does... And to me, actions do speak louder than words. It certainly looks like he is against everything the USA has stood for. And it looks like he wants to turn us the rest of the way into a socialist society. And I am in total disagreement with that.... Even if it is the fastest way to an economic recovery (I'm not convinced), I feel it is the wrong way to do things. I agree with all the talk about empowering people... But I do not see how anyone can expect Obama to understand how to empower anyone to get off their ass and do something..... The point of "labor participation rate" is an important one and is completly different than unemployment rate. There are plenty of jobs available in tne USA for people willing and able to do the work.... It may mean relocating, working for less pay, or doing less desirable tasks. But the jobs are there so... unemployment is a "personal choice". That is not say that for some people it is not the right choice at the time, but it is a choice and people who choose to work, can find a job if they really want to. There is always the oil fields or even support work out there... heck I hear they are paying $18/hour to stock shelves and wash dishes.

So the problem is the majority of people look to leaders for direction. And our leader tells them the government will take care of them and that they somehow deserve this... So reality is we need immigrants to do some of the work because they are willing and able... And the currect laws desperately need updating to allow that to happen legally.

AND my primary point was; we will not likely have another Republican President until a candidate softens his attitude towards immigrants. I am not an open border guy by any means, but I am practical and maybe a bit pragmatic. It is what is, and Republicans better figure that out.

 

[sestoppelman]

That's pretty much how it is these days.

 

[Rob404]

All we need

 

[sestoppelman]

Hilarious!! Should be very offensive to liberals!! GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Saul]

Speaking of not having another republican president because of alienating certain voting groups, I think Ann Coulter made a good point about gay voters, even if she had it sort of backwards. She said that gays make lots of money and are victims of violent crime. Republicans are for lower taxes and hard on criminals. So why aren't more gays republicans?

I think the reason is because many great republican candidates are pressured to take a hard line religious conservative stance, especially during the primaries, even if it is against their morals.

I know that I find it very hard to support any republican candidate who supports Christian social policies (gay marriage for one). I know I will take a lot of heat for this comment, especially from Christians, but I have always thought that the GOP should be against any infusion of religious morals into social policies because the GOP should support personal freedoms. I know that many people would be up in arms if the republican party pushed for strict Muslim morals for the country, so why should Christian morals be any different?

Just like how I find it very difficult to vote for a republican that takes a conservative social stance, I find it very hard to consider voting for a democrat that supports strict gun control. For a party that claims to defend personal social freedoms, they just skip over gun rights because they disagree with them. The democratic party always supports the ACLU, who in turn supports the KKK rallies because it is their right to do so. If the rights of the KKK deserves defending, then the rights granted in the constitution do as well.