Premium bullets needed for PG?

[Joker12]

So far the Interlocks have dropped everything that I have taken in NA. I’m not debating whether the premium line of bullets are superior, but against PG are they absolutely needed like DG

They are some extra insurance but not absolutely needed. Several years ago a friend of mine called me one morning to ask for some help with ammo to take to SA. He was leaving the next day and the premium stuff that he had bought wouldn't group any better than 4" in the rifle he wanted to use. I called off of work for the day and due to the lack of time took some of what shot vert well in my rifle (an '06 ) to his place just to give it a try. It was a handloads using IMR4831 and Hornady 180gr interlocks. His 4" rifle immediately turned into a 3/4" rifle with that load so I put together 80 rounds which he took to Africa. With it he and his lady friend took 14 animals with no problems. They included zebra, gemsbok, kudu and many others of similar size. The "soft" bullets did their job and not one bounced off. I'm not knocking premium bullets but just saying they are not absolutely required.

 

[dogcat1]

In a word - no. Accuracy is far more important.
I use triple shocks on everything with no issues.

 

[375Ruger416]

Good to know. Thank you!

The RUM is coming out for a warm up prior to Sonora…

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Very nice…

 

[StevenQ718]

Muzzle velocity at home was 2876 fps; likely slightly faster with the suppressor I use - maybe 20-30 fps. At 80-120 yds, penetration and expansion was excellent. In fact, they expanded and deformed, in some cases losing petals more than I expected.

I kept shooting as long as the animal was on its feet or until the PH told me to stop. Gemsbok - 1st shot through lungs, 2nd shot through L pelvis as he was running away. He was down in about 50 yds but needed a finishing shot. That is the severely deformed bullet on the L which passed through and struck the ground. I watched the skinning and the lungs were severely contused - they had been struck right through the middle of both.

The blue wildebeest took a single frontal chest shot at about 100 yds and did not go far/died quickly. The kudu took one broadside shot through the shoulder at 120 yd (broke the offside humerus) and died quickly. The eland reacted as though hit hard to the broadside shot at about 120 yds. However, I kept firing until he was down at the instructions of my PH which we had discussed prior to the shot. The first shot passed completely through the vitals and was tenting the skin on the offside. He was hit hard and I don’t think he would have gone far but I placed two steeply quartering away shots on his L side one penetrated into the vitals and the other into the rumen.

The blesbok died to a single shot through the vitals.

The expansion and exit wound on the baboon was impressive - taking him under the R nipple and exiting his back on the L.

My impression is that these LRX bullets do in fact expand more rapidly than the TSX; at least in my limited experience.

Thanks for the report! I plan to use it for an upcoming elk hunt.

 

[Luvthunt]

Back in the day Partitions were THE premium bullet worked for me then and still use them on PG or light skinned animals. For me only the big bear in the North American cont rates hvy construction.

 

[mark-hunter]

I’ve been wondering if a premium soft bullet like A frame, Northfork SS has a significant advantage over other SS. Now this is with respect to all PG big and small and not to be mixed up with DG

There is no any scientific proof of guaranteed terminal effect with one type of bullet vs another.

The question is, if you loose an animal or two due to wounding what will be the cost of your doubts?

Good plains game hunt in South Africa and Namiba will be in average 10K, and can go double with premium animals if hunted.
On a safari, you will spend a box of ammo, and for higher volume of plains game hunt - 2 boxes ammo.
Count the difference in price of two boxes of premium ammo against two boxes of classic bullets.
That difference is insignificant compared to overall cost of safari, and your eventual regrets, and later repeatability of similar hunt.
Next hunt will be next year, or in 5 years, or who knows when. In Africa you have limited time on the ground and limited time for correcting the errors of the way. SO, once hunting, you have to be maximally efficient.

There are a lot of variables on safari, and some things can go wrong unpredictably, and some things you cannot control, but my view is to have maximum out of all the variables that I can control. For me this also means high quality ammo: partition, bonded, or monolithic.

I have never lost an animal in Africa due to wounding (I hunted with premium bullets - last two safaris, and classic soft points - my first two safaris)
But being present in the camp during my 4 safaris, I have seen wounded and lost animals by other hunters in the group.
I can not say was it due to poor shot placement, or due to classic soft point bullet fragmenting on high impact speeds. But all of them used classic soft points in 300 win mag on large antelopes and zebra, and up to leopard. (imagine now the total value lost).

Some of those people were first time african hunters. This is not a good memory to take home after first hunt in africa. How much that costs, besides the trophy fee?

 

[375Fox]

There is no any scientific proof of guaranteed terminal effect with one type of bullet vs another.

The question is, if you loose an animal or two due to wounding what will be the cost of your doubts?

Good plains game hunt in South Africa and Namiba will be in average 10K, and can go double with premium animals if hunted.
On a safari, you will spend a box of ammo, and for higher volume of plains game hunt - 2 boxes ammo.
Count the difference in price of two boxes of premium ammo against two boxes of classic bullets.
That difference is insignificant compared to overall cost of safari, and your eventual regrets, and later repeatability of similar hunt.
Next hunt will be next year, or in 5 years, or who knows when. In Africa you have limited time on the ground and limited time for correcting the errors of the way. SO, once hunting, you have to be maximally efficient.

There are a lot of variables on safari, and some things can go wrong unpredictably, and some things you cannot control, but my view is to have maximum out of all the variables that I can control. For me this also means high quality ammo: partition, bonded, or monolithic.

I have never lost an animal in Africa due to wounding (I hunted with premium bullets - last two safaris, and classic soft points - my first two safaris)
But being present in the camp during my 4 safaris, I have seen wounded and lost animals by other hunters in the group.
I can not say was it due to poor shot placement, or due to classic soft point bullet fragmenting on high impact speeds. But all of them used classic soft points in 300 win mag on large antelopes and zebra, and up to leopard. (imagine now the total value lost).

Some of those people were first time african hunters. This is not a good memory to take home after first hunt in africa. How much that costs, besides the trophy fee?

There is really a lot of evidence. Recovered bullets show premium bonded bullets give repeatable performance maybe 90% of time and acceptable performance 99% of time. Recovered bullets show classic non-bonded soft points repeatable performance maybe 50% of time and acceptable performance maybe 90% of time. Lots of examples of fragmentation, separated cores, and failure to penetrate. As the size of animal goes up and higher velocity of cartridge, the more documented failures there are with non-bonded bullets. I agree with you though the added cost for premium bullets is minimal, so no reason to have that question in the back of your mind if the bullets did their job properly.

 

[mark-hunter]

There is really a lot of evidence. Recovered bullets show premium bonded bullets give repeatable performance maybe 90% of time and acceptable performance 99% of time. Recovered bullets show classic non-bonded soft points repeatable performance maybe 50% of time and acceptable performance maybe 90% of time.

Lets say, fragmented bullet delivers 100% of energy, premium bullet keeps mass, and makes exit wound. So, which one is better?
These things will always be debatable. There is always theory that bullet placement is most important, and everything else is less important, etc...
I am not saying which theory is better, I am just saying there is endless debate on these matters without final conclusion.

But generally speaking, for heavier game, tougher animals, difficult quartering shots, field positions, etc, my personal choice would be premium bullet.
So, debate aside, we are in agreement.

 

[375Fox]

Lets say, fragmented bullet delivers 100% of energy, premium bullet keeps mass, and makes exit wound. So, which one is better?
These things will always be debatable. There is always theory that bullet placement is most important, and everything else is less important, etc...
I am not saying which theory is better, I am just saying there is endless debate on these matters without final conclusion.

But generally speaking, for heavier game, tougher animals, difficult quartering shots, field positions, etc, my personal choice would be premium bullet.
So, debate aside, we are in agreement.

The bullet that gives predictable performance through vitals is better. Shot placement doesn’t matter to me if the bullet doesn’t reach the vitals because it broke up. The Nosler partion creation story is a good example and the first step towards premium bullets where the core could give predictable performance. Like you said though it’s a never ending debate. I think the recovered bullet performance and wounding ratios on good shots is the final say though.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I’ve been wondering if a premium soft bullet like A frame, Northfork SS has a significant advantage over other SS. Now this is with respect to all PG big and small and not to be mixed up with DG

This kind of depends on what you mean by "significant advantage." African animals were killed with standard soft point bullets before the improvements of bonded core bullets. The thing is, the number of wounded and lost animals decreases with the use of premium bullets. Now the question you need to ask yourself is if you are willing to run the risk of losing even one animal due to a factor that you can control.

 

[mark-hunter]

The bullet that gives predictable performance through vitals is better. Shot placement doesn’t matter to me if the bullet doesn’t reach the vitals because it broke up. The Nosler partion creation story is a good example and the first step towards premium bullets where the core could give predictable performance. Like you said though it’s a never ending debate. I think the recovered bullet performance and wounding ratios on good shots is the final say though.

Yes, Noslers story, from the book "Going Ballistic" is good example. (vitals)
But, there are other theories: such as Weatherbies - velocity kills. (shock)
Or, wdm Bells, of small caliber bullet (shot placement)

There are several types of animals from varmints, over large antelopes, and up to elephant. Each requires different type of bullet. (classes of game from 1 to 4)
Etc.
Not in all my Euroepan hunts I need to use premium bullet. (For example, nosler ballistic tip, I use in 30-06 for roe buck).

But for Africa, after 4 safaris, I came to conclusion that premium bullet is most versatile, and most reliable for variety and diversity of species. (basically for all 4 classes of game) In appropriate caliber, of course.

 

[Warren Knudsen]

I had great success with norma oryx 286g in the 9.3x62 on a recent plains game hunt, taking page game up to Eland, and weight retention of around 90 %, id whole heartedly recommend them for plains game.

 

[Desperatezulu]

If premium and conventional bullets give equal and acceptable accuracy in your rifle, what are the merits of using a conventional bullet other than price?

What are the chances of you being on a(n African) hunt using a premium bullet and wishing you had a cheaper, conventional bullet? And vice versa?

I guess we can get into the semantics of 'need'... As the old adage goes, you don't need running shoes to go running, but they #@%&*! help! Some applies to premium bullets and hunting!

 

[CBH Australia]

These things will always be debatable. There is always theory that bullet placement is most important, and everything else is less important, etc...
I am not saying which theory is better, I am just saying there is endless debate on these matters without final conclusion.

I think the reason for endless debate is these shots are not 100% repeatable to replicate.

Consider any given shot, perhaps one good one shot kill where you dropped a substantial animal dead right there.
Imagine on this occasion that you had a premium projectile and you are now happy with its performance and we now believe it adds to the success.
If you could replicate the same shot exactly to a tee where you switched out the projectile to a corelokt or some other common soft point readily available bullet and that was the only difference and you got the same result you still believe the projectile worked exactly as intended and the same shot gives you confidence in the projectile and the exact same result was achieved.
Unfortunately we can never replicate to a tee a field based shot perfectly and it’s why we debate it because we all had a different shot and different experience.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

You pay top Dollar on an African Safari. The bullet is the only thing you’re paying for, which actually touches the animal. I hope that my answer is self explanatory.

That said, a lot of people these days have pretty rigid definitions of the word “Premium”. Barnes TSX and Swift A Frames are great bullets, but a lot of younger hunters these days feel that anything other than these two designs… will fail to bring game to bag.


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Granted; these bullets were the “Premiums” back when I first started hunting in Africa as a client in 1974. And today, the consumer’s definition of “Premium” has changed considerably. But to the best of my knowledge… the anatomy of African fauna (such as a Kudu or the like) hasn’t.

To further put matters into perspective… in Tanzania, local hunters almost always use Sellier & Bellot rifle ammunition (Tanganyika Arms Limited seldom stocks any other brands) for their plains game harvesting purposes. This is as basic rifle ammunition as one can get, but most are pretty successful.

Hunter-Habib, Thank you for your perspective Sir. I appreciate that. I probably over analyze this stuff, but for me it is part of the prep phase which helps to entertain me during the long time space between hunts. I believe strongly that the bullet placement by the hunter is a far more important variable than the actual bullet being used as long as the rifle/bullet combo is more or less suitable for the task at hand. I love to hunt squirrels using a rimfire rifle. It keeps me active and since I shoot off a mono-pod, it aids my shooting off sticks a little. It requires quick gun handling skills as well. Most of the time, I like to choose the bullet that shoots best in my rifle as long as it is a good quality option.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Hunter-Habib, Thank you for your perspective Sir. I appreciate that. I probably over analyze this stuff, but for me it is part of the prep phase which helps to entertain me during the long time space between hunts. I believe strongly that the bullet placement by the hunter is a far more important variable than the actual bullet being used as long as the rifle/bullet combo is more or less suitable for the task at hand. I love to hunt squirrels using a rimfire rifle. It keeps me active and since I shoot off a mono-pod, it aids my shooting off sticks a little. It requires quick gun handling skills as well. Most of the time, I like to choose the bullet that shoots best in my rifle as long as it is a good quality option.

Good bullet placement is and will always be the most important thing. But it is not he only consideration. A bullet that breaks up and fails to reach the vitals can be just as bad as not shooting to the right place.

 

[Jonathan Kashouty]

For PG animals I highly suggest Barnes TSX or TTSX, Swift A Frames, Nosler Partitions in that order. All will do the job and as other have rightly pointed out shot placement is key.

 

[Jonathan Kashouty]

I have had very good success with Berger VLDs in .300 Jarrett on PG but my shot placement was good and missed major bones and joints.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Thanks guys for the great follow up comments and experiences. I know the feeling of thinking I have wounded a PG animal and now am facing a long stalk at best and a lost animal as a worst case. It is a terrible sinking feeling of total failure. In my case, I had shot a Gemsbok at 202y with my 308 using a 180g semi-premium bonded bullet. PH said I missed it but I was pretty certain, I had hit it. Later, I found a blood trail and knew I had hit it but it was seen running away with no signs of being injured. This is a BAD feeling. In my case we got a happy ending because the first shot was a true kill shot and the Gemsbok only ran 60y but in the heavy cover we were hunting, we had lost sight of it before it piled up. The shot went thru and thru. It was a double lung shot that just clipped the major arteries of the heart. There was almost no bleeding at first. I would pay any amount for ammo to avoid feeling that way ever.

I can imagine hitting an Eland or Kudu with a 300wm using a classic cup and core projectile that hit bone and fragments. It dumps all its energy and makes a large wound but fails to penetrate to the vitals and now the beast runs away, possibly escapes far enough to not be found and is lost. Later dies of its wound. Not likely perhaps with good trackers, use of dogs, IR thermal, etc but it happens. I just do not want to be that guy. I will expend 10x the ammo I will use on the Safari with practice and longer distance dope verifications, etc over the course of several months to avoid such foul ups. The guy who was testing his ammo a day or two or even a week or two prior to leaving for Africa is not a hunter in my opinion. He is a tourist who happens to be going on a trip where hunting will be part of the activities. I am glad his buddy was able to bail him out with some good accurate loads and really most of the time the classic cup and cores are going to work just fine. But, I won't use them on whitetail deer, let alone a Kudu Bull. To each his own.