premium bullet rant (read at your own risk)

[blackdog001blackdog001]

I am a little puzzled. I have been hunting for almost 40 years, including 2 African trips where other than two animals that, due to a rifle that was not printing correctly, every animal I have killed has been with one shot. That includes the "tremendously hard to kill Impala . . . and Kudu . . . and Springbok . . . and Blesbok." Come on - other than Kudu none of those 3 animals weighs over 150 pounds (the Blesbok). My go to bullet in my 30-06 is a 180 grain Nosler Partition; 210 or 225 in 338 Win Mag; 150 or 165 Nosler Solid Base in my 308 and 140-175 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips in my 7mm Weatherby. If you think you need a Bear Claw or TSX or even a Parition for a 100-125 pound species of antelope, I will respectfully suggest you need more time practicing. I have hunted with the Inuit who use a 308 for just about everything in Canada and Alaska. Those fellows are all about one shot. Remember "One shot good. Two shots maybe. Three shots no." Many people do not shoot anywhere near as well as they think they do. Add in some pressure, declining light, an elevated heart rate, and a "cheap" bullet becomes a convenient excuse for wounding that 150 yard shot on that 100 pound Impala . . .

Hunts are expensive. Bullets are cheap. So is practice.

 

[EDD]

Love it when you "DAGA BOYS" lock horns regarding your experience in these technical stuff....
Really saves a green horn like me allot of time & money...!!!!
This is what makes this site the fountain of information that it is!!! Keep it up Boys!!!

 

[graybird]

I am a little puzzled. .... If you think you need a Bear Claw or TSX or even a Parition for a 100-125 pound species of antelope, I will respectfully suggest you need more time practicing.

Hunts are expensive. Bullets are cheap. So is practice.

I guess I'm confused by your post. You state you use Partitions, then you turn around and state they aren't needed.

The issue here is not using a Partition on a 100-125 lb critter, the issue is that on a typical safari in addition to the common impala, blesbok, duiker, etc. there are usually larger critters taken, too, i.e. Wildebeest, oryx, waterbuck, etc. IMHO, this is where the better constructed bullets will shine, regardless of price or brand. You never know what you might bump into around the next corner, it could be that trophy impala you've been looking for or that herd of zebra that has eluded you all week, which is where a bullet like a Partition, AccuBond, Barnes, A-frame, North Fork, etc. shines.

I recently used a 300 gr Barnes solid out of a 375 H&H on a 40-50 lb oribi. Was that bullet needed? Heck no! But, I wanted to ensure pelt damage was minimal. My 204 ruger or 223 would have been more than enough gun.

It is all about application and being a long way from home without the luxury of changing bullet types midstream. Therefore, pick the best bullet that your rifle likes suitable for the largest intended game animal, then have a great time knowing your selection of rifle and bullet will take the big guys, as well as the little ones.

 

[colorado]

I agree with Phil. The A-Frames (other than their shape) are an improvement on the current Partitions. I wish they had a solid boattail base though and were a tad pointier. They are a great bullet. This 300g A-Frame out of my 375 Weatherby took a brown bear quartering at 13 yards, breaking his right front shoulder, tore through his lungs and traversed the bear diagonally ending up in the hide of his left rear leg after going through it. It still weighed 299.5 grains. Hard to do much better.

 

[blackdog001blackdog001]

My point was not that a top quality bullet is not sometimes needed or, that one may choose to shoot an A-frame or TSX or Partition all the time. Rather it is that Partitions or A-frames or whatever super premium bullet you shoot are not needed for the "notoriously tough to kill Springbok . . Impala . ." etc. Animals of that size and similar size in N. America (whitetail, mule, Coues deer, antelope, caribou) are easily killed with decent marksmanship with Core-Lokt, etc. Too often, I think, people blame the bullet (it did not exit, even though I made a great shot in the hind leg . . the rangefinder said 286 yards but my scope was only dialed in for 300 yards . . ), rather than the main reason which is poor marksmanship.

There is, I think, a good level of mis-conception on how tough it is to bring down some species of PG (Springbok, Impala, the fearsome duiker and steenbok), when in reality the problem is not enough practice in field shooting positions.

How many North American Elk are killed every year by good hunters using factory Rem Core Lokts, etc? I'd bet a lot.

 

[Tanks]

Well, will be putting it to test in a short while:
Bear hunt with hounds in a 10 days. 335gr CEB tipped Raptor at 2800fps in .500 (yeah, I know overkill at 5800 ft/lbs of muzzle energy ).
Elephant hunt in September - 500gr CEB Safari solid at 2370fps in .500
Cafe Buffalo - 450gr CEB BBW #13 HP at 2400 fps in .500 (first shot, followed by 500gr solids if necessary). The 450 gr shoots 1" higher at 50 yards than the solid.
Zebra & Leopard - 225gr CEB tipped Raptor at 2900fps in .416
Elk Hunt in October - 225gr CEB tipped Raptor at 2900fps in .416

 

[spike.t]

tanks what .500 is it, and can you see a 225grn bullet sticking out of the case neck on a .416?

 

[Tanks]

Those are wildcats, 500MDM, and 416B&M. No issues with bullet sticking out. Here is the pic of 416B&M cartridge with that bullet.

 

[spike.t]

thanks, its a chunky looking thing. how is it length wise to a rigby?

 

[Tanks]

Rigby case length is 2.9" and overall length is 3.750"requiring a magnum action.
416B&M case length is 2.295" and overall length is 2.995" parent case is .300RUM trimmed to size, and expanded to .416. The action is M70 WSM action with the appropriate barrel for the caliber (usually 20").
Here are the pics of my rifles. 500MDM on top.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Those are wildcats, 500MDM, and 416B&M. No issues with bullet sticking out. Here is the pic of 416B&M cartridge with that bullet.

Are you a fellow B&M owner? I have the .458B&M. I am looking forward to reading your report on the CEB performance.

I've shot the 420gr Raptor and 450gr solid with virtually no change in POI at 100 yards. I've also loaded up the 260gr SOCOM bullet to 2900fps with great accuracy. Last time I shot that load, I got a 1.25" four shot group at 200 yards.

 

[Tanks]

Phil, see above .
I like the 458B&M as well, will be having one built with a AI bamboo stock and 18" barrel for foul weather use after I come back from all of my hunts this year.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Your post was up while I was writing mine. AI did my stock too in myrtle. Click below to see pics of mine. I absolutely love shooting it. It's amazing to me still how manageable the recoil is in the heavy loads. The light loads are a piece of cake.

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/458-b-m.11420/

 

[spike.t]

i now remember reading about yours phil. nice pair of rifles Tanks, i do like short handy barrels my cz 550 custom .500 jeff has just arrived from the states into the uk and its got a 20inch barrel on it. just having paul roberts check it out before i go get it. if you dont mind me asking how much are they as i couldnt find any prices on their website?

 

[Tanks]

Phil,
Yes, lovely stock. AI did both of those stocks for me using Bastogne blanks pretty much the same options as yours except I had ebony on the forend and the grip cap.
Mike,
In addition to the donor M70 WSM action, SSK Industries charges about $1,100 - $1,200 to put the gun together (mine was a bit more as I wanted a Jewel trigger like all my guns). Then, the stock can be anything from $100+ for a stock Winchester Ultimate Stock to whatever you might want to spend in a custom stock from Accurate Innovations.

Now, even if you went all out with the stock (English, Myrtle, Bastogne, Turkish etc.) you will have a custom rifle that shoots sub MOA that is considerably less expensive than some of the custom gunmakers. Not to mention one can't put a dollar value on the research Michael has done in developing these cartridges and rifles, for free I might add as he has no financial interest in it.

 

[spike.t]

ok Tank interesting thanks for the info

 

[colorado]

My point was not that a top quality bullet is not sometimes needed or, that one may choose to shoot an A-frame or TSX or Partition all the time. Rather it is that Partitions or A-frames or whatever super premium bullet you shoot are not needed for the "notoriously tough to kill Springbok . . Impala . ." etc. Animals of that size and similar size in N. America (whitetail, mule, Coues deer, antelope, caribou) are easily killed with decent marksmanship with Core-Lokt, etc. Too often, I think, people blame the bullet (it did not exit, even though I made a great shot in the hind leg . . the rangefinder said 286 yards but my scope was only dialed in for 300 yards . . ), rather than the main reason which is poor marksmanship.

There is, I think, a good level of mis-conception on how tough it is to bring down some species of PG (Springbok, Impala, the fearsome duiker and steenbok), when in reality the problem is not enough practice in field shooting positions.

How many North American Elk are killed every year by good hunters using factory Rem Core Lokts, etc? I'd bet a lot.

My youngest son's first elk, killed with my 40 year old Rem BDL 270 (which is now his) with a factory 130g PSP CoreLokt Point taken ...

 

[JTEX]

Dangerous game caliber get Barnes or CEB, the other rifles use Sierra, Berger and some Hornady and Nosler. A Kudu ain't any tougher than an Elk. The most important part is being able to shoot and only taking shots you are comfortable with.

At one time a couple of PH's made a lot of un of my Berger VLDs................they don't anymore!

 

[buffybr]

... the photo I posted are X bullets, I wrote that if you see under - Left to Right - anyhow my trust for the Barnes X is gone for more than 10 years ago, and its difficult to build up this trust again... my point is that the X bullet is the same as TSX with same material but with two cutting grooves and a polymer tip to state a better BC, anyhow its probably good that everyone do not prefer the same bullet, it would be hard to find them
Gordon

I'm a little late to this thread, but I see this topic often on various forums---comparing TSX bullets and their performance with the original X bullets. That's kind of like comparing the new HD flat screen TVs with the old black and white tube TVs. Manufacturers are constantly improving their products.

Like enysse posted, the copper used to make the current TSX and TTSX bullets is not the same material as was used to make the original X bullets. The TSX and TTSX bullets now have 4 internal cutting groves to reliably make these bullets mushroom with 4 petals. The polymer tip is only on the TTSX, not the TSX bullets, and the tip of the TTSX was redesigned with a different ogive and a larger hollow point to accommodate the polymer tip.

Of the 36 or so animals that I have shot with TSX and TTSX bullets, I have only recovered 6. Most of the bullets completely passed through the animals, and the others either I didn't try to find the bullets or I didn't ask the skinners to find the bullets. All 6 of the recovered bullets had perfectly mushroomed, but 2 of them had hit a large bone and had lost one petal.

When I go on a hunt, I zero my rifle with the bullet I think is best suited for the largest animal that I intend to hunt, then hunt everything on that trip with that bullet. On a multiple game hunt, you don't always know each morning when you leave camp what animal you will see that day, so once I zero my rifle to a particular bullet, that is the bullet that I use for whatever game I encounter.

What experience you have ..... from the TSX bullet in .375 (how many buffalo's did you successfully take with them) ?

I have shot 18 African animals with TSX bullets from my .375 RUM including one buffalo. I shot the buffalo at about 50 yards in the shoulder with a 300 grain TSX bullet, and the bullet was recovered in the opposite shoulder. After I shot him he ran maybe another 50 yards, and he was dead when we got up to him.

 

[Tanks]

I just came back from my Zim hunt. Two elephants and two zebras. First elephant was a snapshot as it and its friends headed for us at 15 meters. Bullet entered the skull, went through and lodged in the spine (500gr CEB solid), no deformation at all. Second elephant was shot at 55 meters, a quartering shoulder shot, and the bullet went through the shoulder and was found in the opposite hip. Finishing shot was through heart/lung and was through and through at 35m.

Zebras were 225gr CEB tipped raptors. Shoulder shots. First was slightly quartered and exited halfway through the body on the other side. The PH actually thought I missed it as it took off. We followed and I shot the stallion that was hanging around at the other end of the field. Shoulder shot, instantly down, exited on the other side. When we got to the stallion, we noticed the mare was a few feet away and dead.

Here are the pics.