Practicing long crossers

[Ontario Hunter]

I should add that switching to low gun also made it easier for my deteriorated vision to acquire targets. I think for older guys this is especially important. And of course being mounted on the gun when the clay target is pulled leads to shooter looking at the barrel to adjust lead = missed target. Pulling the target low gun usually means shooter doesn't have time to do that. Acquire, mount, shoot all in one smooth INSTINCTIVE motion. Your eyes will instinctively never leave the target and as we all know eyes always on the target breaks clays.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Watch an experienced hunter shooting skeet for the first time. He shoots poorly American style high gun EXCEPT second target of pairs and incoming at station eight. That tells me two things: 1) his gun fits and 2) he's overthinking the shots. If I can convince him to pull the targets low gun (and I rarely can), he will bump his score by five.

 

[HankBuck]

Several years ago I was struggling to get nineteen every week shooting skeet. At the end of the season we have a fun "flurry shoot" where a team of two shoots fifty randomly thrown targets from five throwers positioned at various places (including one station behind the shooters thrown over their heads). To practice for this fast load and fire event I decided to shoot my last round of skeet low gun. Presto! I shot 21. Must be a fluke. What the hell, I'll shoot another round. 22! No fluke. Shooting low gun kept me from overthinking the shots. I already knew this had been a problem upland hunting. Why did I fan three shots at a rooster my dog pointed for me in the open and then the next day take a double on a pair she flushed unexpectedly in thick willows next to a ditch? I consulted a well known outdoors writer and coach. He advised that I was overthinking the shots. "Slow down and stay off the gun till the last second. Shoot quicker and you will shoot better." His advice also greatly enhanced my "scores" shooting geese from cover at the edge of field with deeks at 50 yards. I try to play the wind so honkers are either coming in overhead for a landing or crossing for a look. Stay off the gun till the last second. My instincts are better than my brain.

@Ontario Hunter - agree, the longer your head is on the stock - bad things can happen

 

[HankBuck]

The clay on edge at that range is a very small target. We have a similar station that gives everyone fits, especially the fellas with the mini gauges. I explained to the one 410 hotshot that the targets were likely flying through his IC pattern at that range. He was under the assumption that a 410 has a smaller diameter pattern than my twelve gauge. Nope! Same diameter but with pellets much more dispersed. I advised him to switch to full choke. The following week he did and only missed two of eight. Usually he was lucky if he could break two. I typically switch my twelve gauge from skeet to modified and always break more than half. At least a couple times during the season I'll break them all. Which is not bad for an old Mr Magoo who's literally half blind with crappy reflexes and shooting a worn out ugly A5 low gun. Making the game challenging is easy enough for me.

@Ontario Hunter - gotta disagree with you here on the .410 pattern diameter, it is the only gauge that has a significantly smaller diameter pattern And why NSSA Skeet classification for a AAA .410 shooter is several birds lower then for 12 ga, 20ga or even 28GA - and all skeet targets are broken within 21 yrds. It’s not just “less pellets” or the very outer or extreme edge of a .410 pattern but the main core pattern that is smaller. Only the best Skeet shooters run 100 straight with .410, very little margin for error.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter - agree, the longer your head is on the stock - bad things can happen

Sure wish I could get someone to shoot international rules with me. It would be more helpful I'm sure. Tuesday for my first round five missed targets by the time I was stepping up to station five. What's going on here? The week before my two rounds were 25 and 23. Fortunately, the first target on #5 broke in the house. I say fortunately because it revealed I was pulling the gun up from low gun BEFORE I had actually acquired the target. I pointed the muzzle down at the ground while I reset the controller ... and I kept it pointed there until after the target was on its way. Never missed another (though I admit to typically shooting #8 high gun ... and blowing up targets before they are half way to the pin ... but must hold WAY low on the house when pulling them).

Edit: Admittedly, premature mounting was only half the problem. I also wasn't throwing the stock quite high enough on my shoulder.

 

[HankBuck]

Had this happen to me yesterday. Went to a new coarse, thrower was roughly 35 yds to the left at about a 45 degree angle. Clay went high and fast to the right crossing at a 45 degree angle away. Clay was at 45 yards before l could get on it and fast. 4 tries and never touched it. Kept increasing the lead. 4 shooters in my bunch, no one hit it. I ended with a 83. Normally l am high 80’s low 90’s

@Mike Van Horn - sounds like you ran into a true “competition level” target - not found as often on local Sporting Clays courses or lower level tournaments or charity shoots. Most courses are set up for shooters to have “fun” and missing isn’t as fun as hitting….lots of shooters won’t return to a course thats to difficult and Clubs need to make money - by having shooters return. I found a big difference when shooting in a State or Regional Level shoot vs. regular NSCA event….for me at least 10-20 more “misses” per 100 targets and a “wake Up call” as to how good (or Bad) I really shoot. Only a handful of people in the World shoot 90% on a Championship Course and some AA & Master Class shooters will score 50% or below…makes the Top shooters even more “impressive”.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter - gotta disagree with you here on the .410 pattern diameter, it is the only gauge that has a significantly smaller diameter pattern And why NSSA Skeet classification for a AAA .410 shooter is several birds lower then for 12 ga, 20ga or even 28GA - and all skeet targets are broken within 21 yrds. It’s not just “less pellets” or the very outer or extreme edge of a .410 pattern but the main core pattern that is smaller. Only the best Skeet shooters run 100 straight with .410, very little margin for error.

You better provide a link.

Two guys at my club can shoot clear rounds skeet with 410 fairly regularly and I wouldn't class them as anything special. Distance to target is not extreme on the skeet range. And they don't seem to shoot any better when they switch to twelve gauge. Clays range is a different story with many stations having much longer range than skeet.

 

[HankBuck]

Sure wish I could get someone to shoot international rules with me. It would be more helpful I'm sure. Tuesday for my first round five missed targets by the time I was stepping up to station five. What's going on here? The week before my two rounds were 25 and 23. Fortunately, the first target on #5 broke in the house. I say fortunately because it revealed I was pulling the gun up from low gun BEFORE I had actually acquired the target. I pointed the muzzle down at the ground while I reset the controller ... and I kept it pointed there until after the target was on its way. Never missed another (though I admit to typically shooting #8 high gun ... and blowing up targets before they are half way to the pin ... but must hold WAY low on the house when pulling them).

@Ontario Hunter - I enjoy shooting skeet low gun and because I’m Not ever running 100 straight (not that good) my scores were very similar whether gun up or down - I was a B class competitor gun up or down and low 90s to 94 was about as good as I could do in Tournaments (mediocre). After years of Not shooting skeet - then getting back into it again a few months ago — my scores had dropped into the 16-18 range so after a few weeks of frustration I returned to gun ”pre mounted”. Starting Premounted for a few rounds I got back to 21-24 a round and consistently shooting 88-90 per 100…it felt like I got my hold & break points consistent. Then I reverted to Low gun only for the incomers (low 1, 2, 3..high 5, 6, 7). I started to get the feel & confidence back - still inconsistent on station 8 low or pre mounted. I’m not where I was but getting closer and it’s only been a few weeks. Is it my age - 60’s vs 40s? Hope not - because skeet is Not that difficult and don’t need cat-like-reflexes…. Consistency is key - if I shoot a 24 then a 19-18-21 that’s a problem….and that’s where I’m at right now = sucks. Sporting Clays remains Fun, every target different, walking the course is fun, most shooters are nice and friendly and the expectation is Never 100%. Having fun, without frustration requires a relaxed attitude about “score” —- I hope to get “relaxed” soon because right now it’s more “Frustration”.

 

[HankBuck]

You better provide a link.

Two guys at my club can shoot clear rounds skeet with 410 fairly regularly and I wouldn't class them as anything special. Distance to target is not extreme on the skeet range. And they don't seem to shoot any better when they switch to twelve gauge. Clays range is a different story with many stations having much longer range than skeet.

@Ontario Hunter - full agreement with you regarding .410 disadvantage especially on Sporting Clays Due to many targets over 21 yards. As for a link - Just look up NSSA classifications for AAA shooters: you need a 98.5 average to be a AAA shooter in 12 gauge, 98.25%/20 ga, 98%/28 ga (less then 1/2 a target difference between 12-20-28 gauges). Many shooters will compete in 12ga events using a 20 ga because the differnce is so very slight. Not so with the .410. The .410 only requires “only” a 96.5% for a AAA classification —- a full 2 targets LOWER then 12ga. That’s because the pattern is smaller AND less dense. It is a 2 target disadvantage with a .410. A 12 gauge (even with an International 7/8oz/24 gram load) …will have a big advantage over a .410.s 1/2oz load. And yes - a tighter choke helps the .410 have a better pattern. If you want further proof we can turn this over to AH’s resident Choke-pattern-testing EXPERT “BeeMaa” !

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter - I enjoy shooting skeet low gun and because I’m Not ever running 100 straight (not that good) my scores were very similar whether gun up or down - I was a B class competitor gun up or down and low 90s to 94 was about as good as I could do in Tournaments (mediocre). After years of Not shooting skeet - then getting back into it again a few months ago — my scores had dropped into the 16-18 range so after a few weeks of frustration I returned to gun ”pre mounted”. Starting Premounted for a few rounds I got back to 21-24 a round and consistently shooting 88-90 per 100…it felt like I got my hold & break points consistent. Then I reverted to Low gun only for the incomers (low 1, 2, 3..high 5, 6, 7). I started to get the feel & confidence back - still inconsistent on station 8 low or pre mounted. I’m not where I was but getting closer and it’s only been a few weeks. Is it my age - 60’s vs 40s? Hope not - because skeet is Not that difficult and don’t need cat-like-reflexes…. Consistency is key - if I shoot a 24 then a 19-18-21 that’s a problem….and that’s where I’m at right now = sucks. Sporting Clays remains Fun, every target different, walking the course is fun, most shooters are nice and friendly and the expectation is Never 100%. Having fun, without frustration requires a relaxed attitude about “score” —- I hope to get “relaxed” soon because right now it’s more “Frustration”.

Did you change guns? Might need to adjust your fit. It doesn't take much to throw off scores when shooting from low gun. When it's cold and I'm wearing a winter jacket, I often remove the slip-on recoil pad to adjust LOP for heavier clothing. Also, jacket collars can get in the way. I zip up my light fleece jacket collar tight against my neck. Otherwise it can interfere with proper fit of butt against shoulder or the cheek against stock when shooting quickly from low gun. The fit being off a bit is less critical when shooting high gun. I can shoot trap well enough with a very poor fitting gun. It's a high gun game and I just make myself fit the gun before target is pulled. But before pulling the clay I MUST refocus on the center of the house where the target will emerge ... and KEEP my eyes on the target after it's pulled. The natural inclination is to be looking at the barrel when target is pulled or looking back at it after pulled. Both = missed target. Again, from low gun skeet (or clays) one usually does not have time to be looking at the wrong thing.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I was wrong, but not like you think. The 410 actually throws a slightly wider pattern than similarly choked 12 gauge.

pattern diameter and shooting in the wind

www.shotgunworld.com

Scoring is adjusted for 410 because it throws a significantly less EFFECTIVE pattern per unit of choke, not a smaller diameter pattern. To obtain a similar pattern DENSITY as a twelve gauge, a 410 requires a much tighter choke = much smaller diameter pattern = significant disadvantage compared to twelve gauge. Also, downrange 410 pellets have significantly less kinetic energy. Hence, while switching to #9 shot in IC choked 410 might help compensate for less pattern density than #7.5 shot out of IC choked twelve gauge, the smaller pellets and less energy may not have enough juice to break marginally hit very hard (material) rabbit targets or clays thrown at long range. There are many reasons for adjusting 410 scoring in competition but smaller diameter pattern/choke unit is not one of them. The bore diameter is smaller but the pattern diameter is not.

 

[HankBuck]

Did you change guns? Might need to adjust your fit. It doesn't take much to throw off scores when shooting from low gun. When it's cold and I'm wearing a winter jacket, I often remove the slip-on recoil pad to adjust LOP for heavier clothing. Also, jacket collars can get in the way. I zip up my light fleece jacket collar tight against my neck. Otherwise it can interfere with proper fit of butt against shoulder or the cheek against stock when shooting quickly from low gun. The fit being off a bit is less critical when shooting high gun. I can shoot trap well enough with a very poor fitting gun. It's a high gun game and I just make myself fit the gun before target is pulled. But before pulling the clay I MUST refocus on the center of the house where the target will emerge ... and KEEP my eyes on the target after it's pulled. The natural inclination is to be looking at the barrel when target is pulled or looking back at it after pulled. Both = missed target. Again, from low gun skeet (or clays) one usually does not have time to be looking at the wrong thing.

@Ontario Hunter - yep bought 2 new Caesar’s in 20 & 12ga w/32” barrels vs previous Browning 12ga 425 30”…. All this started when I switched to the New Caesar 12 ga. I thought that I just needed to adjust to the New gun —-and after two weeks - and maybe 10 rounds of skeet - shot the new 12ga just as good as my old browning - and even when “alternating” the 12 gauges - resulted in same scores - even on same day Browning 21/23 and Caesar 22/24 the the 20ga 20/23….No appreciable difference. But then - had a couple bad rounds, and later the following week had a couple more bad rounds. SO for now, went back to just shooting the only the Caesar’s and mostly the 12 ga. My theory is “when shooting poorly” STOP - take a break, don’t try to shoot-your-way-out-of-it…you may just ingrain bad habits that have recently crept in. Also, if after a short break (a few weeks) if still shooting below your previous level - consider a lesson and have someone trained/knowledgeable & independent evaluate your shooting. The worst thing is listening to strangers in a squad - “you’re behind it” etc.. I usually know, after the shot, where I missed — duh ! Fortunately, been fairly busy planting food plots and some vacation travel past few weeks and look forward to getting back to the Clays soon….One Good thing - with all the $$$ I’m saving on Ammo — the credit card bills look VERY GOOD !!

 

[HankBuck]

I was wrong, but not like you think. The 410 actually throws a slightly wider pattern than similarly choked 12 gauge.

pattern diameter and shooting in the wind

www.shotgunworld.com

Scoring is adjusted for 410 because it throws a significantly less EFFECTIVE pattern per unit of choke, not a smaller diameter pattern. To obtain a similar pattern DENSITY as a twelve gauge, a 410 requires a much tighter choke = much smaller diameter pattern = significant disadvantage compared to twelve gauge. Also, downrange 410 pellets have significantly less kinetic energy. Hence, while switching to #9 shot in IC choked 410 might help compensate for less pattern density than #7.5 shot out of IC choked twelve gauge, the smaller pellets and less energy may not have enough juice to break marginally hit very hard (material) rabbit targets or clays thrown at long range. There are many reasons for adjusting 410 scoring in competition but smaller diameter pattern/choke unit is not one of them. The bore diameter is smaller but the pattern diameter is not.

@Ontario Hunter - OK, I’ll buy that

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter - yep bought 2 new Caesar’s in 20 & 12ga w/32” barrels vs previous Browning 12ga 425 30”…. All this started when I switched to the New Caesar 12 ga. I thought that I just needed to adjust to the New gun —-and after two weeks - and maybe 10 rounds of skeet - shot the new 12ga just as good as my old browning - and even when “alternating” the 12 gauges - resulted in same scores - even on same day Browning 21/23 and Caesar 22/24 the the 20ga 20/23….No appreciable difference. But then - had a couple bad rounds, and later the following week had a couple more bad rounds. SO for now, went back to just shooting the only the Caesar’s and mostly the 12 ga. My theory is “when shooting poorly” STOP - take a break, don’t try to shoot-your-way-out-of-it…you may just ingrain bad habits that have recently crept in. Also, if after a short break (a few weeks) if still shooting below your previous level - consider a lesson and have someone trained/knowledgeable & independent evaluate your shooting. The worst thing is listening to strangers in a squad - “you’re behind it” etc.. I usually know, after the shot, where I missed — duh ! Fortunately, been fairly busy planting food plots and some vacation travel past few weeks and look forward to getting back to the Clays soon….One Good thing - with all the $$$ I’m saving on Ammo — the credit card bills look VERY GOOD !!

I'm just the opposite. I can usually figure out what I'm doing wrong. If I miss a shot here or there I usually know why as soon as I pull the trigger. Missing so many so early in the first round the other day was perplexing. For most of those missed targets I had plenty of time and thought I was on them. I had just opened a new flat. Was that it? Then the broken clay came out of the high house and it was apparent I was anticipating and on the gun too early. Forcing a longer delay before mounting actually peaked my concentration and reaction time. Then I noticed the gun coming up higher on my shoulder to meet my cheek instead of making my head drop onto the stock. When head has to drop onto the stock, it's much easier to be off the gun, especially shooting at crossers from the left (right handed shooter). And yes, I was missing the high house targets.

 

[Mike Van Horn]

@Mike Van Horn - sounds like you ran into a true “competition level” target - not found as often on local Sporting Clays courses or lower level tournaments or charity shoots. Most courses are set up for shooters to have “fun” and missing isn’t as fun as hitting….lots of shooters won’t return to a course thats to difficult and Clubs need to make money - by having shooters return. I found a big difference when shooting in a State or Regional Level shoot vs. regular NSCA event….for me at least 10-20 more “misses” per 100 targets and a “wake Up call” as to how good (or Bad) I really shoot. Only a handful of people in the World shoot 90% on a Championship Course and some AA & Master Class shooters will score 50% or below…makes the Top shooters even more “impressive”.

Agree with that. It was at the Oklahoma Panhandle State shooting complex. Add in the wind and it was anything but your average coarse. Lots of room for long range shots which many courses just don’t have room for.