Poor Man's Double Rifle

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Improved cylinder is perfectly safe for shooting Brenekke Black Magic Slugs . CZ has said so , themselves.

Friend Ponton
May I be so bold to ask what the black magic Breneke cost in Bangladesh. I have not seen them in Australia. In some things gun and ammo we are a long way behind a lot of countries.
Your friend Bob

 

[Major Khan]

Friend Ponton
May I be so bold to ask what the black magic Breneke cost in Bangladesh. I have not seen them in Australia. In some things gun and ammo we are a long way behind a lot of countries.
Your friend Bob

Oh ... they cost the equivalent of $ 3 American Dollars , Bob . These are all of the shot gun cartridge brands ... Which are routinely imported in to Bangladesh .
I took this photograph in the " Columbia Fire Arms " store .

> Lambro
> Eley
> Rottweil ( The only brand of slug cartridges , routinely being imported in to Bangladesh )
> RC4 ( The only brand of buck shot cartridges , routinely being imported in to Bangladesh . 9 pellet 2.5 inch SG cartridges are imported )
> Sterling

Spanish SAGA brand 9 pellet 2.75 inch SG cartridges also used to be imported in to Bangladesh. However , I have been told that SAGA is no longer in the business .

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Oh ... they cost the equivalent of $ 3 American Dollars , Bob . These are all of the shot gun cartridge brands ... Which are routinely imported in to Bangladesh .
I took this photograph in the " Columbia Fire Arms " store .
View attachment 349691
> Lambro
> Eley
> Rottweil ( The only brand of slug cartridges , routinely being imported in to Bangladesh )
> RC4 ( The only brand of buck shot cartridges , routinely being imported in to Bangladesh . 9 pellet 2.5 inch SG cartridges are imported )
> Sterling

Spanish SAGA brand 9 pellet 2.75 inch SG cartridges also used to be imported in to Bangladesh. However , I have been told that SAGA is no longer in the business .

Friend Ponton
Is that $3 US a box of 25 for the black magic Breneke?
The ones in my post black hawks cost $13 U.S. or $20 Australian for 10 slugs
Your friend Bob

 

[Major Khan]

Friend Ponton
Is that $3 US a box of 25 for the black magic Breneke?
The ones in my post black hawks cost $13 U.S. or $20 Australian for 10 slugs
Your friend Bob

Yes , Bob . That is correct . However , since I am a retired service personnel ... I can purchase them , at a discount .

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I have to pay $13 US for 5 Brenneke black magic slugs here in the U.S.

 

[IvW]

From what I've heard, IC choke should be fine, but there it also the option to go with straight cylinder chokes. Barrel's are only 26" long and with the threaded chokes I'd only be left with 22"-23" barrels, which I feel it too short.

You can shoot original Brenneke slugs through a full choke(fixed) in modern shotguns, in fact many combination guns come with 3/4 or full choke..

 

[IvW]

The "Brenneke Opal Magnum", 12ga 3", 666 gr, 5184Joule/3822 ft.-lbs.

View attachment 334356 View attachment 334357 View attachment 334358

3" Opal Magnum compared to a regular 3" Brenneke and a 2 3/4" Brenneke

HWL

Just stick with the original Brenneke with screwed on felt wads.....trust me they work....in 2 3/4" forget 3" and all the other bling....

 

[IvW]

IvW , what kind of pattern do you get from your “ Poor Man’s Double Rifle “ with AAA cartridges ( Assuming that you have tried , of course) ?

AAA? Pattern? Never shot them from my Poor man's double...only slugs..

Combinations yes I use AAA on smaller buck such as forest duikers, never patterned it, either shot solid in the 9.3x74R or the AAA when on the move.....they die so I guess the pattern is ok....

 

[IvW]

As for grouping at 60 yards the slug will close the rifle bullet hole from my combination.....all I need
The poor mans double is a close range rifle...

 

[steve white]

Major Khan is onto something with the hardened lead projectiles. That would make a tremendous penetration difference. You could cast some, but elimination of choke would become even more essential as the harder slugs would be unforgiving of restriction (hence his use of 16 ga./per 12 chokes). So far our discussion has encountered slugs from 1375 fps to 1880 fps--a huge difference. Yes the original Brennekes will shoot out of chokes--and should be tried as such BEFORE cutting off barrels. Doubles are not guaranteed to shoot well after being cut off. Such factors as barrel rise in recoil come into play. The original configuration might actually shoot best. It might pay to grind out all the choke instead of cut off the end of the barrel. Much of the regulation is in the end of the barrel joining, but even that could lead to too much crossover of the shot patterns with a sxs. (Over under have only vertical displacement, but also open/close at a more acute angle. Since most combination guns make the rifle barrel the lower due to more inline recoil, it would be foolish to make the upper barrel endure a lot of extra, joint--loosening stress.) You must try these things in steps or weep later for impatient jump aheads. Longer chambers allow "pagoda" style loads with longer shock absorbing stacks of cushioned spacers, thereby lowering pressures while increasing safe velocities. But reaming out a longer chamber must leave safe "meatiness" of the barrel chamber walls to be considered safe. Best to have that measured, and some countries require reproof after such alteration. Even lengthening the chamber forcing cones in rechambering can affect shot placement--in my experience lowering the pattern about 6 inches in break action guns. If that is not an objective, best to leave it short coned. Ballistic Products Inc. in the US has many recipes in their "load of the day" section of the website. They sell all components for slug loading...many options, much information. If cost is no factor full length rifle insert barrels--usually of German manufacture, can turn a shotgun like the early Czech sidelocks (which are true chopper lump construction!) into an actual double rifle, with the added benefit that each of the barrels is adjustable for point of impact. 9.3x74 is usually the top power limit available. The weight difference, though, could be as much as 2 pounds additional in the front balance of the gun. Such hard recoil will test the integrity of jointing, cocking levers, etc in any gun, cheaper may not be better in such application. Steve

 

[steve white]

BTW, my combination 16 ga./8x57 shoots the now obsolete Active slugs into 2 inches at 100 yards through a full choke, and to the same point of impact as the rifle! (Original Brenekes pattern as well, but 5 inches low and to the left of the rifle impact.) Anyone have any old Activ slugs for sale at any remotely sane price?

 

[HWL]

Forget about the improved cylinder chokes just chop the barrels and start there...

And here it comes...

My very personal "Poor Man's Double Rifle"....finally back from gunsmith.

Barrels are cut to 24", chambers are deepened to 3", and all this approved by the proof house of Suhl/Germany.

It still misses the peep sight, I am looking for.

Thanks to IvW for inspiration.....

Should I ever have a follow up on a Leopard,...this thing will be between me and the beast.

HWL

 

[Major Khan]

And here it comes...

My very personal "Poor Man's Double Rifle"....finally back from gunsmith.

Barrels are cut to 24", chambers are deepened to 3", and all this approved by the proof house of Suhl/Germany.

View attachment 352225

It still misses the peep sight, I am looking for.

Thanks to IvW for inspiration.....

Should I ever have a follow up on a Leopard,...this thing will be between me and the beast.

HWL

Did you need to re solder it , HWL ?

 

[HWL]

Did you need to re solder it , HWL ?

The gunsmith "treated" the muzzle after the cut, he said.

But I do not really know, what he did.

He told me, barrels should shoot to the same point of impact at about 25 - 40 meters, depending on ammunition used.

If not, he can regulate even this.... with my money.

Next I want to do is to try it with Brenneke slugs and the ordinary bead front sight.

But I am still looking for a peep sight, like mounted on IvW's gun.

HWL

 

[7x57Joe]

Great article IvW! I have thought about doing a poor man's double for years. A friend got a CZ Ringneck and had an area gunsmith fit .405 Winchester barrels to it. I saw another friend shoot it after getting it back from the gunsmith but, never saw the owner shoot it.

 

[VertigoBE]

Watching this clip from Buchanan hunts, looks like the PH also has a poor man's double... you can only see a few seconds of it when he is unloading, but those look like shotgun/slug rounds rather than rifle rounds. Also the barrel is very short.

@ 22min 12 seconds:

 

[Ike85123]

Watching this clip from Buchanan hunts, looks like the PH also has a poor man's double... you can only see a few seconds of it when he is unloading, but those look like shotgun/slug rounds rather than rifle rounds. Also the barrel is very short.

View attachment 395219

@ 22min 12 seconds:

He shows loading a dr on the opening of the video. Looks like a 12ga at the time point you mentioned. But with leopard, seems rifle vs shotgun is a debate between hunters.

 

[Red Leg]

He shows loading a dr on the opening of the video. Looks like a 12ga at the time point you mentioned. But with leopard, seems rifle vs shotgun is a debate between hunters.

That is true, though the debate is really about buckshot. I don't know of anyone who doesn't believe that a 12 bore slug won't decisively stop a leopard. A relatively compact 12 like IvW's capable of putting a pair of slugs into a saucer at forty-yards would be close to ideal for such a follow-up. That said, quite a few PH's have over the years used buckshot for following up leopards. It obviously sometimes works, but there are plenty of accounts where the pellets never penetrated the vitals. Also, should the cat get home with his charge into the group following him, having a load of buckshot go off amongst that crowd would be problematic.

 

[Ike85123]

That is true, though the debate is really about buckshot. I don't know of anyone who doesn't believe that a 12 bore slug won't decisively stop a leopard. A relatively compact 12 like IvW's capable of putting a pair of slugs into a saucer at forty-yards would be close to ideal for such a follow-up. That said, quite a few PH's have over the years used buckshot for following up leopards. It obviously sometimes works, but there are plenty of accounts where the pellets never penetrated the vitals. Also, should the cat get home with his charge into the group following him, having a load of buckshot go off amongst that crowd would be problematic.

My dad and uncle always had the debate over slug or 00 for the follow up. I always thought they was crazy. Always the same argument everytime ! Lol

 

[IvW]

Watching this clip from Buchanan hunts, looks like the PH also has a poor man's double... you can only see a few seconds of it when he is unloading, but those look like shotgun/slug rounds rather than rifle rounds. Also the barrel is very short.

View attachment 395219

@ 22min 12 seconds:

I believe that is a 10ga..