Politics

[Red Leg]

The remaining inconsistencies I would see for Grok's counterclaims would be this:

1.) They cite Plasco tower in Tehran as an example of a similarly rated building collapsing under similar fire conditions. Here's a video of the asymmetric collapse of that building, whereas WT7 fell perfectly within its footprint.

2.) It ignores the statement made by owner Larry Silverstein to "pull" the building: https://www.facebook.com/share/v/19RTZxmRPH/

3.) It ignores the conflicting testimony as to who directed FDNY to withdraw from the building, why there would be a presumption of a collapse of that type of building so quickly, etc. I don't have a clear timeline on this element so I'm not proclaiming a verdict, but the "fog of war" during the firefight of WT7 is peculiar and not completely satisfactory.

As to Grok, I can't speak for Grok but I'm a daily user of ChatGPT. It's an amazing tool but it is terrifying how 100% wrong it is on a daily basis. It must be double checked. A random example from this week was asking it if Harry Carey and John Wayne were ever in a film together with a plot line about a blind woman. It was adamant it never, ever occurred. A search of IMDB was able to prove it was incorrect. Last month I asked it about proof loads from the UK for 375HH and it gave a wide range of cordite grain weights. When I questioned its source material repeatedly, over and over it evaded. Eventually it crumbled under pressure and admitted "I have no primary sources to reference for where I drew these facts". AI is awesome for proof reading and refining an email, its really dangerous when it comes to citation of fact with sources.

I posted Grog with this caveat - "I don't claim that AI "knows" any more than any other investigator but it can clear some of the fog."

My primary source is the NIST final report of 2008. Again I would suggest you actually read it before pandering more of this pathetic nonsense.

No conclusion, just a question. Isn't it odd that the Pentagon, arguably one of the most secure buildings in the world had such poor video footage of the attack on 9/11? Absence of evidence isn't evidence of a contrary account, I just found it bizarre that the footage was so limited. Wouldn't it have been better for the Pentagon to state what is likely true? "This place is crawling with security apparatus but to maintain national security, we are withholding certain footages to protect the nation?". (That would appease me and give me confidence that Senators with appropriate access were able to review to their satisfaction that which is logically in existence, yet the Pentagon claims does not exist)

I don't even know what sort of Truther BS you are trying to foist off on us by this ridiculous paragraph. I was at the Pentagon on 911. What Truther bullshit do you think we hid?

The American Airlines flight augured in around three hundred feet around the corner from my offices. Our ceiling came down but none of my subordinates were injured other than some smoke inhalation. Several friends and colleagues were killed that morning. I waded through an acre red, white, and silver aluminum bits and pieces of airliner to help pull a few people out the front before the facade collapsed.

Other DOD personnel were able to pull additional victims out through hallways from the inside. One of the images that stuck with me before the collapse was a child's shoe with the foot still in it just in front of the facade. Later that day, I was chief of Army Legislative Liaison, I took an intel officer to the hill to brief Congressional leadership on everything we knew about the attack there and in New York. Nothing was hidden.

Young soldiers in bio suits pulled bits and pieces of people from the impact area for a couple of weeks afterward.

This sort of thing sickens me.

 

[rookhawk]

I posted Grog with this caveat - "I don't claim that AI "knows" any more than any other investigator but it can clear some of the fog."

My primary source is the NIST final report of 2008. Again I would suggest you actually read it before pandering more of this pathetic nonsense.


I don't even know what sort of Truther BS you are trying to foist off on us by this ridiculous paragraph. I was at the Pentagon on 911. What Truther bullshit do you think we hid?

The American Airlines flight augured in around three hundred feet around the corner from my offices. Our ceiling came down but none of my subordinates were injured other than some smoke inhalation. Several friends and colleagues were killed that morning. I waded through an acre red, white, and silver aluminum bits and pieces of airliner to help pull a few people out the front before the facade collapsed.

Other DOD personnel were able to pull additional victims out through hallways from the inside. One of the images that stuck with me before the collapse was a child's shoe with the foot still in it just in front of the facade. Later that day, I was chief of Army Legislative Liaison, I took an intel officer to the hill to brief Congressional leadership on everything we knew about the attack there and in New York. Nothing was hidden.

Young soldiers in bio suits pulled bits and pieces of people from the impact area for a couple of weeks afterward.

This sort of thing sickens me.

What sickens me is the official narrative that the Pentagon were at minimum, so ineffective they had one viable security camera in 2001 that was recording at 1 frame per second at 320x240 resolution. As a point of order, my $119 D-Link security camera in my garage on 9/11 was recording 24 frames per second at 640x480 so I could keep an eye on a pet from my cell phone. I remember checking it from the Metra train as I bailed out of the city when we closed the offices at 10am.

Your outrage over loss of life is understandable, my outrage as a taxpayer that these are the facts are also outrageous. The official facts suck just as bad as the conspiracies.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

... and all of this 9/11 conspiracy stuff gets away from whether there is or isn't some sort of list of friends and clientele for Epstein and Maxwell, and of a damning nature for high profile personalities. Maybe it seems like a conspiracy mindset to some of you, but I personally think it absolutely flies in the face of common sense to believe otherwise. Trump's own words about being chummy with Epstein as a friend would give me great pause... and he's just one individual.

 

[Doug3006]

The Pentagon needs the public trust. If I'm to take them at face value that they had one parking lot camera that captured 9/11 and they claim to be one of the most secure buildings in the world, how the hell can I trust them to deploy taxpayer capital effectively in their appropriation bills?

I assure you if I was to walk into Langley or Quantico to put a job application on the front desk I'd be on 50 camera feeds. But not the Pentagon? What the hell is wrong with this country?

“Trust? Not for a minute. Trust. The word has always made me apprehensive. Like wine, whenever I’ve tried it, the aftereffects have not been good.” - Rex Harrison as Julius Caesar in the film Cleopatra.

Generally (no pun intended) good advice about all government institutions. Like all agencies, it’s overarching concern is its own survival. You see this clearly during the appropriations process. That said, our defense department has done an admirable job protecting our asses for 250 years…and a few days.

Here’s how I interpret what happened on 9/11:

Al Qaeda plotted to attack the US homeland after attacks abroad failed to produce the desired outcome….driving the US out of Middle East affairs. They plotted the attacks with the assistance of powerful individuals within Saudi Arabia. The Royal Family and the Saudi government almost certainly had no prior knowledge, but that can’t be proven. The Royals depended heavily on the US then as now. So I don’t see how their participation would serve their interests. But it’s obvious that Al Qaeda had more than a little support from the rank in file in The Kingdom.

The Mosad? They are maybe the world’s best at “pulling strings” and achieving their objectives. But why would the Mosad or Israel want the US drawn into a conflict with Al Qaeda, or the Arab world in general. Iran is the greatest threat to Israel. Getting the US embroiled in a shooting war with Afghanistan and Iraq did nothing to solve Israel’s Iran problem.

The Intelligence Community and the Pentagon were guilty of tremendous malpractice. Not having enough security cameras trained on the Pentagon wouldn’t even make the list of screw ups. You can start with the shoddy surveillance of OBL and Al Qaeda, and the missed opportunities to take them out. Officials fall back on the excuse that times were different before 9/11. We’ll, I don’t think we’ll make that mistake again….but it WAS a mistake.

Hatred of the USA, combined with malfeasance on the part of those who run our military and intelligence apparatus, gave us 9/11.

 

[Red Leg]

What sickens me is the official narrative that the Pentagon were at minimum, so ineffective they had one viable security camera in 2001 that was recording at 1 frame per second at 320x240 resolution. As a point of order, my $119 D-Link security camera in my garage on 9/11 was recording 24 frames per second at 640x480 so I could keep an eye on a pet from my cell phone. I remember checking it from the Metra train as I bailed out of the city when we closed the offices at 10am.

Your outrage over loss of life is understandable, my outrage as a taxpayer that these are the facts are also outrageous. The official facts suck just as bad as the conspiracies.

"The official narrative" ! - Christ the Truther ilk make me nauseous. I am so sorry you don't have nonexistent 4D video of an airliner disintegrating into the bowls of a building to feed your interests.

To @mdwest 's point, I'll simply suggest that the protective sensor array, like it has many places since 911, has changed dramatically in the ensuing 20+ years.

 

[Brent in Az]

There is a rift between FBI deputy director Dan Bongino and Pam Bondi, after a heated clash at the Whitehouse over the handling of the Epstein files.
Rumor has it that Dan Bongino is considering resigning.
Not sure what is going on, but Bongino always struck me as a no nonsense type of person

 

[rookhawk]

There is a rift between FBI deputy director and Pam Bondi after a heated clash at the Whitehouse over the handling of the Epstein files.
Rumor has it that Dan Bongino is considering resigning.
Not sure what is going on, but Bongino seems to be a no nonsense type of person ?

Various sources are saying Bongino skipped work today, fueling further questions as to whether he is quitting, threatening to quit, or has a sniffle.

At minimum, Bondi made stupid statements about what was sitting on her desk ready for her to read. Now she has to walk back her statements.

One article today suggests that Patel and Bongino wanted additional information released and Bondi declined.

We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Wheels]

Wow!! reading through the above, I never realized there was such controversy regarding the collapse of the twin towers. I had heard comments about staging the Moon landing, but they were mostly by comedians and I took them for what they were worth- jokes. As for the collapsing towers- I read they collapsed because the planes hit the buildings in their vulnerable spots- higher and there was insufficient upper mass to overwhelm the structure-lower and the structure was strong enough to withstand the weight. Whether this was on purpose or the infidels just got lucky, I don't know, but I think that it doesn't matter, the result was the same.

 

[John Wasmuth]

There is a rift between FBI deputy director Dan Bongino and Pam Bondi, after a heated clash at the Whitehouse over the handling of the Epstein files.
Rumor has it that Dan Bongino is considering resigning.
Not sure what is going on, but Bongino always struck me as a no nonsense type of person

I think he’s pissed that they turned him from being an upright honest man into a liar, which he just can’t stomach.

 

[Red Leg]

I think he’s pissed that they turned him from being an upright honest man into a liar, which he just can’t stomach.

Or from someone having jumped to very public conclusions based upon suppositions without real evidence to one confronted with actual facts ladened with legal liabilities. I have no idea. I does appear that various interests are leaking for their own reasons that there is some serious tension between he and Bondi.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Don’t know if you saw the interview with he and Kash but he looked ill at ease when stating that Epstein offed himself. I’m sure we will never know.

 

[Red Leg]

Perhaps @wesheltonj can weigh in, but it is one thing to talk about a "list" of supposed pedophiles on social media, and it is another thing for the DOJ to list a group of people about which there is either no evidence or insufficient evidence to proceed to a grand jury and prosecution. I would also remind that only one then underage person (Virginia Giuffre) has come forward publicly, who based upon her court admitted lie or mistaken identity of Alan Dershowitz, would have made her a terrible witness for a prosecution. Yes, she has subsequently committed suicide which no doubt is feeding some conspiracy keyboard as we type.

The Wall Street Journal has done some extensive reporting on this subject including listing some names. The relationships and mutual favors, at least to me, seem a little different than some would assume.

This was published in 2023

https://archive.is/Ngh8r

I have no doubt this piece of human garbage exploited a number of young women. I have no doubt he likely enabled the abuse of others. But, I can not imagine any prosecutor, particularly the Feds, would release those names unless they are prepared to file charges.

 

[BJH65]

Never before have we lived in an age where one can literally do a deep dive using a variety of tools like AI among others to really get a fairly comprehensive accurate account regarding certain events like the JFK assassination, the Apollo moon landings and 911 to name some events which are fueled by conspiracy theories, yet never before have I seen such stubborn refusal to actually do this?

Is AI infallible? Of course not. It’s a product of human programming that’s going to have some baked in human bias which can be extrapolated. It doesn’t mean it’s not a very useful tool. AI is ever evolving and IMO improving. If one has the desire and time to look beyond one’s confirmation bias and seek out information beyond one’s own narrative. Conspiracy theories are like quicksand-people dive in and don’t want to climb out, even with stacks of evidence staring them down.

The information and tools are there and available. Remove emotion from the equation and one can get a fairly accurate depiction of the events. Any comprehensive deep dive will uncover some human mistakes, flaws, and errors: this is part of the human condition.

But here’s the kicker: no amount of data sways someone if their emotions are tied to a grand cover-up. It’s not about facts; it’s about feeling in control of a scary world.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Perhaps @wesheltonj can weigh in, but it is one thing to talk about a "list" of supposed pedophiles on social media, and it is another thing for the DOJ to list a group of people about which there is either no evidence or insufficient evidence to proceed to a grand jury and prosecution. I would also remind that only one then underage person (Virginia Giuffre) has come forward publicly, who based upon her court admitted lie or mistaken identity of Alan Dershowitz, would have made her a terrible witness for a prosecution. Yes, she has subsequently committed suicide which no doubt is feeding some conspiracy keyboard as we type.

The Wall Street Journal has done some extensive reporting on this subject including listing some names. The relationships and mutual favors, at least to me, seem a little different than some would assume.

This was published in 2023

https://archive.is/Ngh8r

I have no doubt this piece of human garbage exploited a number of young women. I have no doubt he likely enabled the abuse of others. But, I can not imagine any prosecutor, particularly the Feds, would release those names unless they are prepared to file charges.

A good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich with the flimsiest of evidence. A “Great” prosecutor gets convictions based upon solid evidence. Was there a list? Who knows, why keep evidence that will land you in the brig? Only a fool would do that. Did the fbi find incriminating evidence on the island? Again, who knows. Is it enough to bring charges against any of Epsteins associates? Only the fbi knows that. Would the fbi destroy evidence to protect certain people, it’s been done before. It’d be nice if it was all out there but it won’t be.

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

View attachment 698658

Magic bullet. The government has hidden the existence of magic for years.

 

[WAB]

I dont think the theory that POTUS is on "the list" holds any water..

If so the FBI is so leaky there is no way in hell that someone in the NY Field Office didn't already send it to Chuck Schumer and others... and there is no way in hell Schumer doesn't cash in that chip immediately to his own political advantage.. unless he himself is also on the list...

Schumer and others would sacrifice every other liberal, donor, democrat, etc on the list.. even if they outnumbered conservatives 10:1 just to be able to hang Trump out to dry... Theyve already gone the impeachment route, weaponization of the courts route, etc.. nothing on earth is more valuable to them..

I think the issue is everyone else on "the list" (whether there is an actual written list, or just documentation of who was trafficked, who was partaking in the trafficking, etc across a wide swath of evidence, etc.. we know there is documentation of some sort out there.. Epstien and his side kick were both convicted on that evidence, which we know included names, witnesses, etc).. My guess is they have at this point simply determined the juice isn't worth the squeeze.. too many people aligned with one side will have to get executed to get at the same or similar number of people on the other side..

I honestly could care less if we're ever shown "the list" or not..

My beef is don't make month after month after month commitments to do something.. and then treat the American people like idiots and now claim what you have promised doesn't exist..

If it didn't exist, it didn't take 6 months to figure that out..

If it does exist.. just be honest and say "yeah.. about that list.. Its not in the American peoples interest to release it.. and if you don't like it.. well, it sucks to be you..."..

Have some balls and have some integrity..

At this point I have zero faith in anything Bondi says moving forward.. and less faith in pretty much everyone that's been involved in the whole debacle.. clearly they have some truthfulness problems..

I agree with everything you’ve said with the exception that, I would like to see every piece of scum who went to that island exposed and hung from the yardarm. I don’t care what party they are associated with.

 

[deewayne2003]

Perhaps @wesheltonj can weigh in, but it is one thing to talk about a "list" of supposed pedophiles on social media, and it is another thing for the DOJ to list a group of people about which there is either no evidence or insufficient evidence to proceed to a grand jury and prosecution. I would also remind that only one then underage person (Virginia Giuffre) has come forward publicly, who based upon her court admitted lie or mistaken identity of Alan Dershowitz, would have made her a terrible witness for a prosecution. Yes, she has subsequently committed suicide which no doubt is feeding some conspiracy keyboard as we type.

The Wall Street Journal has done some extensive reporting on this subject including listing some names. The relationships and mutual favors, at least to me, seem a little different than some would assume.

This was published in 2023

https://archive.is/Ngh8r

I have no doubt this piece of human garbage exploited a number of young women. I have no doubt he likely enabled the abuse of others. But, I can not imagine any prosecutor, particularly the Feds, would release those names unless they are prepared to file charges.

Well said!…. You would be pissing in the Cheerios of people that have the money and legal connections to file civil action worth billions and unless they were found guilty in court would win.

Just look at what Michael Jackson got away with and he was out on trial.

 

[bowjijohn]

I don’t buy any of this conspiracy nonsense for any of the events discussed here

I am curious though about the ‘white powder in the post’ scare a few days after 9 11

It was suggested at the time that there was an ongoing situation of some kind

Suddenly the story was pulled and no one ever mentions it

What was that all about?

 

[Red Leg]

I don’t buy any of this conspiracy nonsense for any of the events discussed here

I am curious though about the ‘white powder in the post’ scare a few days after 9 11

It was suggested at the time that there was an ongoing situation of some kind

Suddenly the story was pulled and no one ever mentions it

What was that all about?

It was very real. In September/October 2001 letters containing anthrax in a powder form were mailed to Senators Daschel and Leahy and a number of media outlets. Over 20 people were infected and five died.

Naturally, everyone at first assumed it was a continuation of the al-Queda attacks. But the anthrax material was apparently "weapons grade," and an American bio-defense research scientist, Bruce Ivins, became the focal point of a very long and drawn-out investigation noted for a number of investigative missteps including initially focusing on an innocent suspect. Ivins committed suicide in 2008 as charges were about to be filed. His motivations were never entirely clear, though he apparently had issues with depression and held grievances that his and his agency's work were not fully appreciated. Because he is dead and there is no other suspect, it is rather hard to make a clear determination.

Though the case died because the only suspect committed suicide, the incident naturally lives on as a conspiracy cloud descended over him and this incident just like every other fantasy created as a result of 911. The most prevalent of these claims is that the letters were actually a secret government operation to offer an excuse to tighten security operations across the country including things like the Patriot Act and domestic surveillance. Ivins was simply a handy scapegoat. Another one assumes a Big Pharma military collaboration to increase investment in bioweapons and defense. There are several others. The depths of self-delusion are nearly bottomless.

The incident also triggered a wave of copycats for a while that continue occasionally to this day as letters containing flour or sugar were periodically mailed to threaten or frighten people. The DOJ in every administration has been very aggressive in charging these people when caught.

As a personal note, following the actual anthrax attack, all mail to the DOD was eradiated before delivery withing the Pentagon. It had a tendency to make paper extremely brittle. I opened more than one letter at my desk to only have it fall apart when unfolding it.

 

[steve white]

The possible election of Mamdani as mayor NYC brings to mind a saying, "If America was given an enema, NYC is where they would put the tube!"
Maybe some of you would have other candidates for that honor..