Politics

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Here you go, explained in detail.

Why Apple Won’t Leave China—Tim Cook Explains [Video]

Apple CEO Tim Cook has publicly debunked the myth that iPhones are made in China because of cheap labor. In a widely shared 2024 video, Cook explains that China’s true advantage lies in its unmatched precision, massive scale, and highly skilled workforce—making it the only place capable of...

engineerine.com

If you'd prefer to watch and listen instead of reading...

I think that's a crock of shit and he's making up excuses talking in generalities and not giving specifics. I work in the med tech industry. We have manufacturing all over the world with many mfg facilities here in the USA. We also have facilities in Asia, Europe and one not exactly wealthy Latin American country. Product development is almost entirely here in the USA.

This idea that the tooling required for an iPhone is so much more higher and we can't find the engineers to develop those processes is just bullshit. Sorry but I work in implantable medical devices that apply life saving therapies. Devices which must remain implanted for years before a battery finally means EOL for the device, work 100% of the time during the years long life cycle of the product and which is held to a quality standard that is only matched by auto and mil-spec devices. None of our products that I'm aware of are engineered in China. Most of the engineering is done here. You cannot tell me that an iPhone is more difficult than what my company produces, it's laughable.

For Tim Cook to sit on an interview and tell us that China is sought after for its technical prowess and not its cheap labor, I can't see how anyone could take that seriously.

 

[Tanks]

You cannot tell me that an iPhone is more difficult than what my company produces, it's laughable.

Just about every component in an iPhone is manufactured in Asia, for example the screen is made by Samsung. So, if we have a plant here, there would be tariffs on majority of the components plus the labor costs, so a $3,500 iPhone is feasible.

In regard to what your company produces, do they produce it in similar quantities and complexities to iPhones and retool it every year for a new model?

Regardless, the biggest competition to iPhone is Samsung at a similar price point. Both produced overseas, so if Trump adds a 25% tariff to both, it would not mean much in terms of competition between the two. Though, most likely they will lose some customers, hence why Apple stated a $900B impact from the tariffs.

Would be interesting to see how much of the tariffs they will pass on to the customers if Trump follows through.

I am already getting forwarded emails from vendors that their prices are going up on the average 20%. And I really don't care as we would just pass it on plus our markup to our clients (mostly municipalities, utilities and oil and gas at this time). In reality on cost plus, we make more money if our costs go up. So, thank you Trump.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Just about every component in an iPhone is manufactured in Asia, for example the screen is made by Samsung. So, if we have a plant here, there would be tariffs on majority of the components plus the labor costs, so a $3,500 iPhone is feasible.

In regard to what your company produces, do they produce it in similar quantities and complexities to iPhones and retool it every year for a new model?

Regardless, the biggest competition to iPhone is Samsung at a similar price point. Both produced overseas, so if Trump adds a 25% tariff to both, it would not mean much in terms of competition between the two. Though, most likely they will lose some customers, hence why Apple stated a $900B impact from the tariffs.

Would be interesting to see how much of the tariffs they will pass on to the customers if Trump follows through.

I am already getting forwarded emails from vendors that their prices are going up on the average 20%. And I really don't care as we would just pass it on plus our markup to our clients (mostly municipalities, utilities and oil and gas at this time). In reality on cost plus, we make more money if our costs go up. So, thank you Trump.

This post has nothing to do with the original subject which you often repeat that we don't have the talent. Nor does it support this bullshit line of Cook's that China is not sought for cheap labor anymore but it's technical capabilities from the interview you posted.

You may just want to do a Google search on just how much Apple does still manufacture here. Including how much of the fab capacity it will be utilizing in the TSMC fab being built here in the Phoenix area.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

@Tanks @PHOENIX PHIL
I’m lost in the math on the iPhone issue you two gentleman are going back and forth on, if bringing manufacturing back to America would cause a 50% increase as stated previously and the tariff being threatened is only 25% is it just another excuse to tax another product? No company is going to move production that will cost them 50% more to make as long as all that is threatened is a 25% increase their just going to pass on to the consumer anyway, you loose less customers at 25% increase than 50% increase. Unless I’m missing something? Is there another part to this issue I’m not seeing?

 

[Tanks]

This post has nothing to do with the original subject which you often repeat that we don't have the talent. Nor does it support this bullshit line of Cook's that China is not sought for cheap labor anymore but it's technical capabilities from the interview you posted.

Well, I'll go by what the CEO of the company says rather than the anecdotal evidence of stuff made here by one company (whatever it is).

We do have the talent I am sure, just not in the quantities needed. Also, I doubt we can get the kind of response the Chinese get from their labor when they have to be roused in the middle of the night to implement a manufacturing change (as stated by Tim Cook as an example).

Heck, a few years ago I had a project in the UK. I needed 11 engineers over there for a year. I offered a 25% salary increase, trips back home every 3 months for a week, all expenses and use of a car to my employees. I sweetened the pot saying I'd also fly their family there as well.

ONE person took me up on it. Rest, I had to hire consultants to fill the slots. Our engineers are prima donnas; I see that daily in the younger generation especially.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Well, I'll go by what the CEO of the company says rather than the anecdotal evidence of stuff made here by one company (whatever it is).

We do have the talent I am sure, just not in the quantities needed. Also, I doubt we can get the kind of response the Chinese get from their labor when they have to be roused in the middle of the night to implement a manufacturing change (as stated by Tim Cook as an example).

Heck, a few years ago I had a project in the UK. I needed 11 engineers over there for a year. I offered a 25% salary increase, trips back home every 3 months for a week, all expenses and use of a car to my employees. I sweetened the pot saying I'd also fly their family there as well.

ONE person took me up on it. Rest, I had to hire consultants to fill the slots. Our engineers are prima donnas; I see that daily in the younger generation especially.

Yah, I'm sure Tim is being completely forthright, pfft. You seem quick to dismiss my
"anectdotal" evidence but then provide your own in your UK example. FWIW, when I was younger engineer I'd have signed up to that deal in a heartbeat.

 

[WAB]

Well, I'll go by what the CEO of the company says rather than the anecdotal evidence of stuff made here by one company (whatever it is).

We do have the talent I am sure, just not in the quantities needed. Also, I doubt we can get the kind of response the Chinese get from their labor when they have to be roused in the middle of the night to implement a manufacturing change (as stated by Tim Cook as an example).

Heck, a few years ago I had a project in the UK. I needed 11 engineers over there for a year. I offered a 25% salary increase, trips back home every 3 months for a week, all expenses and use of a car to my employees. I sweetened the pot saying I'd also fly their family there as well.

ONE person took me up on it. Rest, I had to hire consultants to fill the slots. Our engineers are prima donnas; I see that daily in the younger generation especially.

Let me provide some hard data. Years ago my division was buying into a Chinese manufacturing company. They were operating production facilities similar to mine with 10x the staff and 1/2 the op ex.. I toured every facility prior to approving the deal, so my data is not second hand.

Workers were housed and fed on-site in very decent facilities. They would see their families once or twice a year. Bulk material movements were done manually instead of by conveyor as manual was cheaper. This company produced product for domestic consumption. But imagine this capability and cost structure applied to a product for export to the US. There is no way for US manufacturing to produce at that cost structure, and any CEO who ignores it will be fired or out of business.

I think it is laughable to criticize these companies for making a decision that is in the best interest of their customers and shareholders. What would you suggest they do, stand firm on US production and go bankrupt?

 

[Tanks]

I think it is laughable to criticize these companies for making a decision that is in the best interest of their customers and shareholders. What would you suggest they do, stand firm on US production and go bankrupt?

I think that is what Trump wants them to do. He already chastised Walmart and others for saying prices will have to go up due to tariffs.

I really do not get the thinking that assumes the exporting country would eat the tariffs when they are charged to the importer.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@Tanks @PHOENIX PHIL
I’m lost in the math on the iPhone issue you two gentleman are going back and forth on, if bringing manufacturing back to America would cause a 50% increase as stated previously and the tariff being threatened is only 25% is it just another excuse to tax another product? No company is going to move production that will cost them 50% more to make as long as all that is threatened is a 25% increase their just going to pass on to the consumer anyway, you loose less customers at 25% increase than 50% increase. Unless I’m missing something? Is there another part to this issue I’m not seeing?

I only just noticed you tagged me in this post, I was not ignoring you. I'm in no way getting into the numbers with these posts of mine today, the first regular posts in this thread I've kind of sworn off of. But I had surgery yesterday and the internet is my primary form of distraction when I'm not quite so in the sky on Oxycodone.

My only purpose was to point out this fallacy that we can't engineer at a very high level in the USA anymore, that we must resort to China for their abilities. Yet it's China that steals eveything they can from American companies to try and keep up. It's simply laughable.

As for the numbers, I've no doubt that the average Chinaman working the factories in China does so at a cheaper cost. The fact that they are treated just slightly better than slaves to do this, well if that doesn't bother you so that you can continue to get your underwear or widescreen tv at bargain basement prices, what can I say? I for one refuse to shop at Walmart and never do.

All that said, it's also quite impossible to have any somewhat higher end products, I'm eliminating underwear and the plastic crap you get from Temu from discussion here, completely from any one country entirely. There's way too many pieces and parts made in way too many countries for that to happen.

Trump is simply doing what so many other countries have done effectively and that is to compete one way or another for a bigger slice of the pie. I don't criticize any countries leader for doing the same and I sure won't blame Trump either. How successful can he be? I don't know, but I damn sure know we can do better. We've become too dependent on the foreign supply chain a fact that was brought home to us thanks to Covid. Oh and where did that originate again?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Let me provide some hard data. Years ago my division was buying into a Chinese manufacturing company. They were operating production facilities similar to mine with 10x the staff and 1/2 the op ex.. I toured every facility prior to approving the deal, so my data is not second hand.

Workers were housed and fed on-site in very decent facilities. They would see their families once or twice a year. Bulk material movements were done manually instead of by conveyor as manual was cheaper. This company produced product for domestic consumption. But imagine this capability and cost structure applied to a product for export to the US. There is no way for US manufacturing to produce at that cost structure, and any CEO who ignores it will be fired or out of business.

I think it is laughable to criticize these companies for making a decision that is in the best interest of their customers and shareholders. What would you suggest they do, stand firm on US production and go bankrupt?

I'm not sure if your post was directed towards me or not. I won't argue your data or against your point in general. But I would ask, at what economic cost to the USA? As pointed out in my post to Tubby, the USA has become way too dependent on the foreign supply chain and was exposed during Covid.

Will Trump be able to bring all mfg back to the US? I doubt it. But a rebalancing was needed and the more he can do that the better. Albeit the businesses must remain profitable for certain. It's profits that pay for the R&D of new products that keep these companies, like mine, in business to begin with.

 

[spike.t]

There was an experiment...

https://www.npr.org/2025/05/20/nx-s1-5403514/tariff-made-in-usa-label-texas-experiment

From the article:

Was trying to remember where had read that...saved me some searching

 

[fourfive8]

Businesses that learn to “play the game” tend to do very well in corrupt, bloated bureaucracies/governments. Naturally, they tend to defend such corrupt systems and will fight to keep or expand them.

 

[spike.t]

More on the travel to usa issues...i know people said not seing anything when i asked in previous post., but something must be happening there as keep seeing more articles on it.....especially with airlines cutting flights to some of the main airports/ holiday spots there...

Europe Freezes US Travel as Lufthansa, British , Air France, KLM and More Slash Routes to Major Cities Including New York, Miami, Los Angeles, and Chicago to Tap Soaring Demand Across Canada, Mexico, Brazil and Caribbean - Travel And Tour World

European airlines are freezing their transatlantic growth and pulling back from major U.S. cities like New York, Miami, Los Angeles, and Chicago as they redirect flights to Canada, Mexico, Brazil and Caribbean, where bookings are rising and demand is outpacing the American market.

www.travelandtourworld.com

 

[WAB]

I'm not sure if your post was directed towards me or not. I won't argue your data or against your point in general. But I would ask, at what economic cost to the USA? As pointed out in my post to Tubby, the USA has become way too dependent on the foreign supply chain and was exposed during Covid.

Will Trump be able to bring all mfg back to the US? I doubt it. But a rebalancing was needed and the more he can do that the better. Albeit the businesses must remain profitable for certain. It's profits that pay for the R&D of new products that keep these companies, like mine, in business to begin with.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but it is in no way the fault of the corporations. They have no choice, although they are easy targets.

 

[Tanks]

Kinda related in regard to availability of talent.

Immigration Is the Only Thing Propping Up California’s Population — The Wall Street Journal

A job market without enough ‘homegrown’ engineers drives an influx of workers to the U.S.—and helps offset the residents who are leaving

apple.news

From the article:

Necessity drove Silicon Valley’s reliance on foreign labor. In the 1990s, Apple turned to India for engineers because of a shortage of American ones, said Satjiv Chahil, the company’s global marketing chief at the time.


There are “still not enough homegrown engineers,” said Chahil, a longtime Valley investor and innovator.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Our engineers are prima donnas; I see that daily in the younger generation especially.

Developers are worst.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

 

[rigbymauser]

There was an experiment...

https://www.npr.org/2025/05/20/nx-s1-5403514/tariff-made-in-usa-label-texas-experiment

From the article:

The sad truth is not many americans buy “american”. I looked through my household to see if I had any american products. My wife came up with a Kenwood kitchen machine and I could find some old boxes of .300 HH SuperX from Winchester. From there I had and old football cap from the 1980s saying “ Roll Tide” and some Disney Park T=shirts. But from here there was nothing. Back in the 1970s we had much more american made stuff. My dad drove Chryslers in the 60s and 70s untill the oilcrises came and it was sold some years later. Too expensive too fill I guess. I have a hard time figuring out what Trump wants to manufact in the US that the world will buy?. In the 1950s many things were made in the US but there was no China to compete with. Today everything is being outsourced was foreign countries even overhere and we will never make the things we used to make.

 

[Red Leg]

Businesses that learn to “play the game” tend to do very well in corrupt, bloated bureaucracies/governments. Naturally, they tend to defend such corrupt systems and will fight to keep or expand them.

Nice platitude. Give us a specific example and how that works.

 

[deewayne2003]

The sad truth is not many americans buy “american”. I looked through my household to see if I had any american products. My wife came up with a Kenwood kitchen machine and I could find some old boxes of .300 HH SuperX from Winchester. From there I had and old football cap from the 1980s saying “ Roll Tide” and some Disney Park T=shirts. But from here there was nothing. Back in the 1970s we had much more american made stuff. My dad drove Chryslers in the 60s and 70s untill the oilcrises came and it was sold some years later. Too expensive too fill I guess. I have a hard time figuring out what Trump wants to manufact in the US that the world will buy?. In the 1950s many things were made in the US but there was no China to compete with. Today everything is being outsourced was foreign countries even overhere and we will never make the things we used to make.

I have vintage Zebco fishing reels that I cherish; the current Chinese made ones are an abomination.

I buy American whenever I can but otherwise I avoid Chinese made products if possible, especially outdoor gear.