Politics

[mdwest]

Also recognizing that I can't be on the highest of horses commenting about decorum while having to habitually edit my posts:

My strong preference is to weigh in while on the computer.
But immediately following the election I'm just tuning in sporadically from Barbados on my phone, and it leaves much to be desired.

Completely concur... I have the same problem..

No harm - no foul in post edits..

Im guilty of everything from typos to bad cut and paste, etc..

 

[LivingTheDream]

In a change of pace, does anyone actually know what the hell is going on between the two nuclear powers currently exchanging artillery fire?

Dude I am have been shocked how little coverage there is on that. I am having to go down the rabbit hole on Reddit.

 

[mdwest]

Dude I am have been shocked how little coverage there is on that. I am having to go down the rabbit hole on Reddit.

I expected India to do something after the terrorist attack a few weeks ago by a group of Pakistan based bad guys in Kashmir.. but I expected the action to be relatively minor... and then the two governments would find a way to de-escalate..

Al Jazeera seems to be giving it more coverage than the big EU and US news agencies.. and while sometimes Indian news agencies are decent, clearly they're biased on this one..

 

[OxfordTheCat]

Approximately 46% of US citizens have a passport.
70% of Canadians do. That was my point. And facts confirm. If o it want to tilt at that particular windmill, have at it

By your numbers, 98m Americans traveled. Out of 340m
30m Canadians traveled. Out of 40m

The math is left as an exercise to the reader, as the old, before the fancy new curriculum, schoolbooks used to say.

I'm not sure it's the damming indictment that you imagine it to be.
And I certainly don't dispute that there is a preventative of Americans that are well traveled (look at the forum we're on). But to claim its a norm is folly.

I'll cut through the chaff and ask directly, do you believe that the average American is as well educated or informed on international matters, or as well traveled as their first world Canadian or European counterparts?

My position is that they're not.
Demonstrably.

 

[OxfordTheCat]

I expected India to do something after the terrorist attack a few weeks ago by a group of Pakistan based bad guys in Kashmir.. but I expected the action to be relatively minor... and then the two governments would find a way to de-escalate..

Al Jazeera seems to be giving it more coverage than the big EU and US news agencies.. and while sometimes Indian news agencies are decent, clearly they're biased on this one..

On the aircraft shot down?

While I can see the usual exchange of artillery on unmanned observation posts as a throwback to the previous decades, the fact that civilians are being killed, and the accusations of strike aircraft seem to be an escalation?

Also - curious on your opinion. Who is the most reliable source in the region?

My default would be to BBC

 

[mdwest]

Are you comparing apples to apples there?

did 30M Canadians travel abroad? the numbers I just read said only 20% traveled outside of Canada.. and that almost 10% traveled to the US...

If we're counting how many Americans traveled in total, that number is going to get pretty close to 100% among those financially capable..



Regardless, when 1/3 of a country travels abroad every year, and the number of passports increase 300% inside a 20 year window... that hardly supports your argument of isolationism being the cause for the low number of passports or the implication that Americans don't travel abroad..

Again, until 2001 you didn't need a passport to visit the overwhelming majority of international destinations that Americans travel to.. so passports are actually something of a new thing in the US... there are 3 living generations of Americans that traveled abroad multiple times in their lives before ever needing a passport.. pre-2001 they simply weren't necessary unless you wanted to visit the Eastern Hemisphere..

And until the last couple of years more than half the world didn't require US Citizens to obtain visas to travel to the country..

 

[mdwest]

I'll cut through the chaff and ask directly, do you believe that the average American is as well educated or informed on international matters, or as well traveled as their first world Canadian or European counterparts?

My position is that they're not.
Demonstrably.

That would depend on the definition of "average"... and also "educated"..

54% of people over the age of 25 have at least one degree in the US... contrasted by 34% of Canadians.. or 33% of Brits..

but comparing our educational system to EU and commonwealth systems is a bit of a challenge.. for example when you pursue a degree in the UK, almost the entirety of your coursework will be directly related to your degree field.. if you're pursuing a degree in "International Relations" in the UK.. almost everything you stuff will be directly tied.. vs in the US more than 50% of your classes will be "General Education" or "Electives" with the remaining half being specific to the field of study..

The belief is it creates a more "well rounded" student (which I personally find to be BS)..

FWIW both of my masters degrees are from UK universities.. while my bachelors and doctoral studies have been done at US schools.. so Ive got a pretty good feel for both systems (doctorate is still in progress)..

In terms of informal education, Americans certainly pay a whole lot less attention to whats going on outside of our borders than most Europeans and Canadians that I know... 9/11 changed that a lot.. and the internet and access to European news like Sky, BBC, etc has improved things a lot.. but Americans in general are much less interested in whats happening in Ottowa or London or Brussels than others are interested in whats happening in DC...

But again.. you have to be careful to correctly compare and contrast the two... the US is a big country.. what is happening 2 states over in the US is at times very similar to whats happening 2 countries over to a European.. what Californias courts and governor does has the ability to impact what life looks like in Wyoming just a few years later.. and when your country isn't just dimentionally large, but also dominates the global economy, heavily influences regional and global geo politics, etc.. of course everyone else is paying attention to you.. but whats going on in Latvia might not be as interesting or important to a guy in Alabama since what Latvia does will likely have little to no impact on life in Alabama anytime in the near future..

When it comes to internationally traveled, there is no doubt in my mind that the "common" European is significantly more traveled than the "common" American... but again, you have to be careful to do reasonable comparisons.. Traveling between France and Spain is about as easy and as cost effective for a European working class person as traveling between Louisiana and Texas in the US.. The US is a large country and extremely diverse culturally and physically.. people from NY are completely unlike people from California, which are completely unlike people from Texas.. which are completely unlike people from Boston (much like I would guess a French Canadian from Montreal Quebec is likely a very different person than a rural guy from central Alberta..

That said.. where things change is with the upper end of the American middle class and above... They have more discretionary income than the overwhelming majority of the world.. and have not only the financial means but also the desire to travel and see the world (by in large.. there are obviously exceptions).. and because we as a nation have been leaders in globalization, international travel for business is also very common.. While it might be common for an upper middle class German or Italian, etc to see most if not all of Europe and a few other places in his lifetime, you take his American counterpart and you might be amazed at how many more passport stamps the American has..

I'll use myself as an example.. I am not among the "elite".. but I am comfortably on the upper end of the American middle class.. and have worked in an industry that has required extensive travel for more than 2 decades.. Ive managed to fill 4x double paged passports in just the last 20 years, made more than 500 international trips (between business and pleasure), and have seen 112 countries the last time I bothered to count different visas, stamps, etc.. Ive amassed a little more than 3M air miles between various airlines and if I had to guess picked up another 1M or more on chartered aircraft, and I don't have a clue how many more on military aircraft.. If you accumulate all of the time I have spent outside the US in my lifetime my best guess is I have lived abroad for 5 years or more.. and that's without me ever actually having a home address outside of the US..

So.. while I completely acknowledge that I am not the typical American.. I'd venture a guess that Im significantly more traveled than 99%+ of the world to include Europeans and Canadians..

And there are a whole lot of others out there like me.. just here in Dallas alone (although most of their numbers might not be quite as high)..

 

[Wheels]

On the aircraft shot down?

While I can see the usual exchange of artillery on unmanned observation posts as a throwback to the previous decades, the fact that civilians are being killed, and the accusations of strike aircraft seem to be an escalation?

Also - curious on your opinion. Who is the most reliable source in the region?

My default would be to BBC

I can’t speak directly to the india/Pakistan situation but in tanzania where international programming is limited Al jazerra used to give way better information than bbc and sky news. This was a few years back so things may have changed.

 

[CJW]

This travel argument is ridiculous from the start. If Europeans want to see any sort of different landscape or go further than a few hours away from their home they HAVE TO go to a different country. Meanwhile Americans are spoiled for choice as to what they can see and experience while staying within their own borders. Major mountain ranges, deserts, beaches galore, rugged coastlines, huge, tiny and everything in between national parks, rainforests, wetlands, 5 giant lakes, dense northern forests of north central and north eastern America, beautiful rolling hills, the great plains, creek and river bottoms of the central America. Then we have the pure rugged beauty of Alaska and remoteness of Hawaii.

Quit acting like Europeans, Canadians or whoever are traveling internationally because of some sort of intellectual superiority.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

The fact that you still take 100% of Trump's rhetoric seriously and literally at this point in time cracks me up! His unpredictability in regard to what is rhetoric and what is a viable threat is a deliberate tactic, by the way, that is obviously effective... Sorry you are not appreciating and enjoying it as much as I am...

The trust of others is irrelevant and pretty much unnecessary in his negotiating style... The pesky little fact that Trump and all the other world leaders know is that they will continue to align with the U.S. and do business with us because they have to... We are still the dominant superpower in the world with the most powerful military, the largest economy, and most import consumer buying power...

I've said it here and in other threads many times that they all hate us until they need us, and then they love us again... That remains true regardless of who resides in the WH... It is for these precise reasons Canadians can sleep soundly at night with a military of only 68,000... You're welcome by the way...

The fact you can’t take 100% or even 50% of what the president of the United States says seriously should not be a position you brag about.

Canadians can sleep soundly in our beds at night because we’ve got a long and proud tradition of supporting our allies in whatever military action is necessary. As much as you’d like to think Americans single handily won the world wars Canadians we there along side of you. And actually in both years long. Korea Canadians were there , Vietnam Canadian volunteers off set the number of draft dodgers. Bosnia , Afghanistan Canadian were there.

Vimmy ridge? taken by Canadians, the Netherlands? Canadians Liberated them. Longest sniper shot in history? A Canadian took it. Juno beach? Canadians, Iranian hostage crisis Canadians got 6 of your countryman out.

None of that is to belittle the incredible military service Americans have made , and continue To make. But to pull your hat down tight and say that Canadians owe you a thank you when Canadians were standing alongside of you is wrong.

 

[Red Leg]

Quit acting like Europeans, Canadians or whoever are traveling internationally because of some sort of intellectual superiority.

Quit acting like Europeans? This is a site where a significant majority travel internationally - hunting and otherwise. I would suggest intellectual superiority has little to do with it. Though along with an interest in hunting a fascination with other cultures, languages, and history might.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

I guess you buy into the Archie Bunker observation: The problem with traveling overseas is there’s too many foreigners

Justified took a pretty good crack at it too “ I’ve been to Mexico Boyd , you wouldn’t like it it’s full of Mexicans”

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

This travel argument is ridiculous from the start. If Europeans want to see any sort of different landscape or go further than a few hours away from their home they HAVE TO go to a different country. Meanwhile Americans are spoiled for choice as to what they can see and experience while staying within their own borders. Major mountain ranges, deserts, beaches galore, rugged coastlines, huge, tiny and everything in between national parks, rainforests, wetlands, 5 giant lakes, dense northern forests of north central and north eastern America, beautiful rolling hills, the great plains, creek and river bottoms of the central America. Then we have the pure rugged beauty of Alaska and remoteness of Hawaii.

Quit acting like Europeans, Canadians or whoever are traveling internationally because of some sort of intellectual superiority.

I guess you buy into the Archie Bunker theory of international travel: The problem with traveling overseas is that there are so many foreigners!

 

[CJW]

Quit acting like Europeans?

Huh? Not sure why you quoted me like that. Not what I said. There is no exclamation mark or period after Europeans in my post.

This is a site where a significant majority travel internationally - hunting and otherwise. I would suggest intellectual superiority has little to do with it. Though along with an interest in hunting a fascination with other cultures, languages, and history might.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. My point is that Americans can travel far from home and see many different landscapes and different cultures and still be in their own country. Europeans generally can't. They can easily leave their country for their pick of another with a few hours drive. That's it.

 

[CJW]

I guess you buy into the Archie Bunker theory of international travel: The problem with traveling overseas is that there are so many foreigners!

When did I say that traveling overseas is bad for any reason?

You completely missed the purpose of my post which is that it's super easy for them to travel to a different country for the weekend.

Figured I would clear that up since it seems to some I wrote in code.

 

[BSO Dave]

That could have been boiled down to "the man is driven by a strong ego wrapped in Stars & Stripes".

This is a gross oversimplification to describe a man who defied all political odds at least twice if not three times, and in doing so, owns the greatest political comeback in world history... You TDSer's and Euro-haters can mock this man all you like, but the facts remain that an adolescent, egomaniac has become the most powerful man on the planet not once, but twice, and is now playing the fiddle that the rest of the world must now dance to...

As mdwest already correctly stated all world leaders are egomaniacs and narcissists to one degree or another... It just so happens that Trump uses it to this country's advantage...

Apparently some voters did believe Trump. Why shouldn`t others believe him too?.

In regards to Trump or not the markets may react differently than what the world politicians believe. They need predictability just like any household economy.

Trump campaigned on tariffs and a global trade reset and did EXACTLY what he said he would do... He also predicted that some temporary economic pain domestically may be a side effect. The American people decided to trust him... Not sure where the unpredictability came into the picture?

Regardless, the U.S markets are recovering nicely, and the tariffs are already paying dividends via new trade deals or actual revenue. This reset had to happen for the U.S. to re-establish our global economic future... Everybody on Wall Street knew it, and every politician in D.C. knew it... Until Trump, none of them ever had the balls to pull the trigger...

Globally, Canada will pursue closer trade and ties to the UK, EU, China, and India. We'll be better positioned for it in the 21st as China and India rise, and the US wanes.

Yeah, becoming more dependent on China is a great economic strategy... Let's see how that one works out for Canada...

Don't hold your breath for the demise of the U.S. just yet... Your prediction of the U.S. waning isn't likely to age well...

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

When did I say that traveling overseas is bad for any reason?

You completely missed the purpose of my post.

I read your post and it wasn’t clear to me what your point was. Whatever your point is, it wasn’t clearly conveyed.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Approximately 46% of US citizens have a passport.
70% of Canadians do. That was my point. And facts confirm. If o it want to tilt at that particular windmill, have at it

By your numbers, 98m Americans traveled. Out of 340m
30m Canadians traveled. Out of 40m

The math is left as an exercise to the reader, as the old, before the fancy new curriculum, schoolbooks used to say.

Feeling somewhat superior over us inbred, Trump voting Americans? Okay, let’s review this passport issue…

A higher percentage of Canadians have passports than Americans. Now why oh why could that be? Maybe because there is nowhere to vacation in Canada, other than skiing and seeing polar bears!

Hmmm, while I like our non-superior brothers in Canada, most Canadians live within 100 miles of the U.S.A. border. I don’t think Canada has many tropical vacation locations. Oh, Canada has great skiing, hunting albeit with certain anti-gun restrictions, and wonderful farmlands and mountains. That stated, not many people vacation in Alberta, do they?

Americans can without leaving U.S. soil go to beach in Florida, Hawaii, U.S. Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, Marianna Islands and maybe another location or two. We can also ski mountains, and enjoy countless acres of public (BLM) lands for hiking, mountain biking, hunting and shooting, and so on. Most of that public land isn’t under a foot of snow for half the year.

Americans can drive or fly state to state for a vacation and everyone speaks the same language. J We have subcultures that differ enough to make visiting fun! I believe I’ve traveled to every state in the USA and even though I’ve spent time in Europe, Asia, and Africa, I didn’t leave anything behind in Europe or Asia… Nice to visit but I can also visit other states and drive home.

Finally, the map below isn’t new but look at the size of our land compared to Europe. Yes, I know Canada is a larger land mass, but that includes your tundra, perma-frost, and areas that most people seldom venture. So, I don’t know how big the 100 mile strip is that borders the U.S.A. where 90% of Canadians live, but I bet it is no larger than the whole area of Texas!

I like my brother Canadians but the U.S.A. didn’t cause your problems. Your liberal voting, socialist leaning fellow Canadians did.

 

[BSO Dave]

With appropriate respect to you and your imagined Internet credentials, I find them wanting.

You're free to find mine wanting as well, as you obviously do, and I'm fine with it. I'm more trying to point out the foolishness of you doubling down on them and leaning on them.

I do not know him personally... However, in reading hundreds of @mdwest's post over many years of his contributions here, I have found him to be one of the most informed, respectful, and open-minded participants on this forum... In attacking his character, you are bringing a knife to a gunfight...

I also think his analysis of your constant BS is spot on... This is not the hill you want to die on...

 

[Tundra Tiger]

"The fact you can’t take 100% or even 50% of what the president of the United States says seriously should not be a position you brag about."

Bingo.