Politics

[Scott CWO]

I absolutely agree that Canada has a lot of work to do. In reality, our history shows we are relatively new country, our Charter is only about 40 years old. We have spent the last 60 years not paying attention to what can make Canada a strong country. I think Trump has been a blessing in that he is forcing Canada to pay attention to the division of powers under our constitution and what we should do to create stability for Canadians. I am optimistic. I like Premier Smith, I think she has a lot of good ideas. We shall see.

I feel for you but without the Electoral College that we have in the USA, you are screwed. You have simple majority rule where 50.1% elects your PM.

 

[sgt_zim]

Were you educated entirely in the US?

I think that's the biggest issue when it comes to landing on definitions - the modern US political spectrum is deeply skewed, and often totally at odds with the longstanding definitions in use pretty much everywhere else. There is some sort of pathological need to try to up-end traditional definitions and force Fascism and Nazism to the left wing as a political 'gotcha', typically by cherry picking various bits and pieces.

Generally, outside of historical nuances of the left being common landowners and the working class, while the right was represented by landed gentry and traditional aristocracy, the political science approaches have mirrored the classic left and right economic axis, with common-ownership, worker centric economics on the far left (Communism), and private but state controlled, corporatist economics on the far right (Fascism). This is a reflection of it originally being a scale of radicalism versus traditionalism, with the 'modern' (as in, no monarchy or aristocracy) extremes being a stateless, workers revolution on the far left, and a rigid, totalitarian corporatist traditional state on the right. Fascist leaders explicitly self identified as being on 'the right'.

It's the two axis model which then more directly introduces measures of authoritartianism or anarchism into the equation.

I think the Nolan Chart is probably the most useful measure these days.View attachment 671201

Huge amount to unpack here, but no. This statement is about as inaccurate as it gets, which should be pretty self-evident to most with even a basic understanding of the competing and opposing ideologies involved.



Praising NSDAP policies for addressing issues plaguing German workers in the wake of the First World War and Great Depression is hardly evidence to suggest the two ideologies are working in lockstep, especially and particularly when Hitler is busy writing about his plans to exterminate "Marxism" from Germany, and working in tandem with the traditional German right against the left. Even prior to actively persecuting via violence, the abolition of trade unions and forced exile of left-wing civil servants and academics paints a pretty clear picture.

That definition of "left" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I know what's taught in college about it, and has been for decades. It's wrong.

The US constitution is/was the embodiment of liberalism. Marx and the rest of the 19th century socialists believed they were coming up with something ever further left than American enlightenment liberalism. In reality, it was just more authoritarianism with a different group of despots in charge.

The 19th century industrialists were the left - it was they who were ushering in wealth and prosperity and the old order couldn't tolerate it - WRT the conservatives who wanted to preserve the monarchies. In reality, the only thing the "new" left did in Germany and Russia was displace family names like Hohenzollern and Romanov with party names like NAZI and Communist. Otto von Bismarck hated the industrialists at least as much as Marx did.

The US conservative is unique in the whole world - he seeks to conserve enlightenment liberalism, the original and only true left.

 

[Scott CWO]

Can anyone of the MAGA crowd explain to me how international treaties and deals currently work?

I was under the obviously mistaken and erroneous assumption that international treaties with another nation were honourable and binding contracts negotiated in good faith and agreed to by both parties. Contracts that defined the behaviour of both parties for the full duration while they were in effect.

The current USA administration seems to operate with the assumption that whatever is currently expedient and good for the USA is what the daily deal is, contracts don't matter, and the "opposition" be damned. Lying and contract breaches are a fair and reasonable way to reach a "just" USA goal.

Trump himself negotiated and signed the currently legal and binding "USMCA" agreement. But now it's not worth the paper it's printed on. And here we have MAGA supporters suggesting we get back to the bargaining table.

Why would Canada negotiate in good faith when international good faith has been squandered on the altar of American electoral politics?

MAGA = Make America Greedy and Amoral

Canada's political and territorial integrity are at stake, and MAGA supporters say we're over reacting.

Trump has reputation in his real estate business on contracts. It has been reported that he would ignore them or force changes unless the other party took him to court. Most people try to avoid court.

 

[Fastrig]

That definition of "left" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I know what's taught in college about it, and has been for decades. It's wrong.

The US constitution is/was the embodiment of liberalism. Marx and the rest of the 19th century socialists believed they were coming up with something ever further left than American enlightenment liberalism. In reality, it was just more authoritarianism with a different group of despots in charge.

The 19th century industrialists were the left - it was they who were ushering in wealth and prosperity and the old order couldn't tolerate it - WRT the conservatives who wanted to preserve the monarchies. In reality, the only thing the "new" left did in Germany and Russia was displace family names like Hohenzollern and Romanov with party names like NAZI and Communist. Otto von Bismarck hated the industrialists at least as much as Marx did.

The US conservative is unique in the whole world - he seeks to conserve enlightenment liberalism, the original and only true left.

Very well said, and spot on!!!!!

 

[WAB]

Of course it is. Whether the current younger generations have the will or skills to exercise that opportunity is another issue. That isn't on them by the by, it is on you and me. My son, a technical school graduate of all things, lives in a finer home and has a far larger base salary and more disposable income than his father did until he left the military.

Sadly, too many of the younger generation have been failed by an education system that has left them illiterate and without hope. That has nothing to do with opportunity which is still here in abundance, but everything to do with preparation.

Agreed, my son is far ahead of where I was at his age. The opportunity is there for those willing to work for it.

 

[OxfordTheCat]

I can see it now, smuggling champagne across the border and by tiny subs and hidden in water melons!

When it comes to wine bottles, I imagine this would be vastly preferrable than the old fashioned way of getting some KY jelly and comfortable pants...

 

[Red Leg]

That definition of "left" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I know what's taught in college about it, and has been for decades. It's wrong.

The US constitution is/was the embodiment of liberalism. Marx and the rest of the 19th century socialists believed they were coming up with something ever further left than American enlightenment liberalism. In reality, it was just more authoritarianism with a different group of despots in charge.

The 19th century industrialists were the left - it was they who were ushering in wealth and prosperity and the old order couldn't tolerate it - WRT the conservatives who wanted to preserve the monarchies. In reality, the only thing the "new" left did in Germany and Russia was displace family names like Hohenzollern and Romanov with party names like NAZI and Communist. Otto von Bismarck hated the industrialists at least as much as Marx did.

The US conservative is unique in the whole world - he seeks to conserve enlightenment liberalism, the original and only true left.

OMG

 

[Fastrig]

Agreed, my son is far ahead of where I was at his age. The opportunity is there for those willing to work for it.

My dad used to say, People tell me I'm lucky, I find the more I learn and the harder I work, the luckier I get.....

 

[WAB]

LOL, that's always very subjective on wines....I'll try that vineyard but haven't had a Texas cab that can even come close to the Napa cabs....had some that are as good as the central coast CA wines, but not the good Napa cabs...

If you are interested in the comparisons, research the judgement of Paris. Alternatively, simply watch the movie bottle shock. The Californian wines came off quite well. Particularly Ridge Monte Bello and Chateau Montelena Chardonnay.

 

[Fastrig]

OMG

He's not wrong.....

Classical liberalism is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism that advocates free market and laissez-faire economics and civil liberties under the rule of law, with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech.

That's what the US was founded on, the Constitution is a Limiter on government to ensure a rule of law with restrictions on government power for the advancement of classical liberalism....the "great experiment" it's often been called

 

[Red Leg]

I feel for you but without the Electoral College that we have in the USA, you are screwed. You have simple majority rule where 50.1% elects your PM.

It is actually far worse. In virtually no parliamentary government does any one party ever get a majority. The one with the most votes (seats won in parliament) then does a bunch of horse trading with other parties to form a ruling coalition. Germany is the most egregious example currently - at least from a republican (small r) perspective.

In the most recent parliamentary election, 49% of the German people voted for either the CDU/CSU or AfD. That is a significantly larger block than any other political group would be able to muster in Germany. However, because the AfD is considered beyond the pale by many in and out of Germany for being too right wing, the CDU/CSU is forced to form its "conservative" coalition among the various socialist factions.

 

[Red Leg]

He's not wrong.....

Classical liberalism is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism that advocates free market and laissez-faire economics and civil liberties under the rule of law, with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech.

That's what the US was founded on, the Constitution is a Limiter on government to ensure a rule of law with restrictions on government power for the advancement of classical liberalism....the "great experiment" it's often been called

That is not the point I with which I am amazed.

 

[OxfordTheCat]

I find it a tad ironic that Authoritarian and Liberal (Fascism/Socialism/Communism) are on the LEFT of your chart....so if Nazism and Fascism are right wing, how come they aren't on the right side of the chart with the Conservative and Libertarian (Capitalism)? No one, who is being honest at least, would classify the Nazi party as Conservative or Libertarian based on this chart, which kind of means right wing is pretty much out of the picture.

I guess find it ironic, but you're still trying to desperately apply an irrelevant one dimensional dichotomy to a different, three dimensional model.

You have one chart where you have oranges on the left and apples on the right.
And then you look at a different chart related to fruit and you're pointing out that the position of apples has changed. Well yeah - it's a different model.

This is the kind of silly 'gotcha' I was referring to.

 

[Fastrig]

If you are interested in the comparisons, research the judgement of Paris. Alternatively, simply watch the movie bottle shock. The Californian wines came off quite well. Particularly Ridge Monte Bello and Chateau Montelena Chardonnay.

Thanks!! I'll check those out....love good wines A Napa vineyard worth exploring if Frank Family Vineyard....not over the top price wise and presents much higher than it's price point, IMO..

 

[Scott CWO]

You are right that in america everyone has an opportunity. But that mindset its a leftover from the colonial times that many cling on to. Go find gold and you are rich. But in reality more and more of your citizens are being pushed over the edge because they don`t find gold. You are wrong if you believe that its only in america that has proven system that allow people to move upwards(social mobility).

Brainwashed! In the USA it is mostly a lack of effort if you’re not successful. Stupid people make bad choices over and over again. There’s no hope for a lot of them. In the USA, if you string good daily choices together, you will be successful. If you’re a good hard worker, you will be promoted and succeed. We don’t offer entry level workers here a “living wage” for just that reason. Prove yourself and you will be promoted. Entry level work is not supposed to be a career here.

 

[Fastrig]

I guess find it ironic, but you're still trying to desperately apply an irrelevant one dimensional dichotomy to a different, three dimensional model.

You have one chart where you have oranges on the left and apples on the right.
And then you look at a different chart related to fruit and you're pointing out that the position of apples has changed. Well yeah - it's a different model.

This is the kind of silly 'gotcha' I was referring to.

You really need to open a good bottle of wine and relax a bit....based on that chart, which is obviously overly simplistic, Nazis were not right of center....you could hardly call the Nazis classical liberals, authoritarian would be much closer....and that is on the Left side of the chart

 

[Fastrig]

That is not the point I with which I am amazed.

Maybe I misunderstood....

 

[OxfordTheCat]

That definition of "left" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I know what's taught in college about it, and has been for decades. It's wrong.

The US constitution is/was the embodiment of liberalism. Marx and the rest of the 19th century socialists believed they were coming up with something ever further left than American enlightenment liberalism. In reality, it was just more authoritarianism with a different group of despots in charge.

The 19th century industrialists were the left - it was they who were ushering in wealth and prosperity and the old order couldn't tolerate it - WRT the conservatives who wanted to preserve the monarchies. In reality, the only thing the "new" left did in Germany and Russia was displace family names like Hohenzollern and Romanov with party names like NAZI and Communist. Otto von Bismarck hated the industrialists at least as much as Marx did.

The US conservative is unique in the whole world - he seeks to conserve enlightenment liberalism, the original and only true left.

I guess this is the kind of thing I was referring to when I say the US perspective can be deeply skewed. Because while I can maybe see the classical liberalism argument side of it, I'm not sure there's much common ground with a contention that Gilded Age industrialists and robber barons are, in any sense, 'the left'. It's the antithesis of the left.

Same goes for putting Bismarck on the left (who rather famously institued anti-Socialist laws).

I'll agree that it seems that what passes for a US "Conservative" these days is certainly unique in the world.

 

[OxfordTheCat]

You really need to open a good bottle of wine and relax a bit....based on that chart, which is obviously overly simplistic, Nazis were not right of center....you could hardly call the Nazis classical liberals, authoritarian would be much closer....and that is on the Left side of the chart

I actually had a laugh at this, as I had just literally returned to my office with a glass of wine.
Tell me where the cameras are.

 

[Fastrig]

I actually had a laugh at this, as I had just literally returned to my office with a glass of wine.
Tell me where the cameras are.

Nice!!! Still working, but have a nice bottle of cab on the counter waiting for day's end