Politics

[Red Leg]

My opinion is different.
The biggest threat to the USA and to Europe, is the CIA, USAID and the NATO war machine.
They carry out actions based upon RDS......Russia Derangement Syndrome.
As we fund atheist hate groups and Muslim terrorists within their borders,
Fire missiles into their Country, Use continuous cyber attacks (which Pete H. just paused)
Try to deny their access to warm water ports,
and blow up their pipelines, the major news propaganda pulpits tell us that THEY are the aggressors.
If you speak Russian, you can easily hear the 21 times Putin asks "why can't we all prosper together?"
(Oh, but he is Hitler, right?) As we currently build the largest NATO air base ever.
$9 trillion in recent foreign wars. To no real end. Your money wasted.
And they tell you another war is essential? Nonsense.
Just for fun, look at Romania. The pro-Russian candidate won.....and the CIA puppets cancelled the election......like in the Donbas.....didn't get the result they wanted, yet they champion democracy? The people in these puppet Countries have no voice. No NATO, no war.......a basic truth..........that's what I think.....FWB

I am confident those sentiments would be met by a standing ovation in Moscow, Beijing, Tehran, and Pyongyang.

 

[Red Leg]

Presumably because the US would continue to provide hundreds of billions in agricultural, manufacturing, energy, and tech subsidies to their domestic industries; continue to flout and ignore WTO rulings, continue the refusal to implement any type of carbon pricing, and continue to encourage domestic production to the point of being in a position to promote dumping.

Existing tariffs, including those the US has had in place historically, are in place for a reason.

Subsidies are a very real issue which are conveniently ignored when debating tariffs by both sides. I would again point to the Boeing Airbus competition where the US was firmly on the side of considering European subsidies which favored Airbus pricing.

 

[YancyW]

Presumably because the US would continue to provide hundreds of billions in agricultural, manufacturing, energy, and tech subsidies to their domestic industries; continue to flout and ignore WTO rulings, continue the refusal to implement any type of carbon pricing, and continue to encourage domestic production to the point of being in a position to promote dumping.

Existing tariffs, including those the US has had in place historically, are in place for a reason.

Carbon pricing

 

[deewayne2003]

View attachment 670129
View attachment 670130View attachment 670131

Today's German magazines. USA: from close ally and friend to opponent? Trump, what an insane idiot.

By all means feel free to tell the EU to step in and fill the void of what the USA is no longer providing.

 

[skydiver386]

Carbon pricing

Carbon Pricing....aka the Al Gore Climate Change SCAM that I wish I'd have thought of.

 

[deewayne2003]

Presumably because the US would continue to provide hundreds of billions in agricultural, manufacturing, energy, and tech subsidies to their domestic industries; continue to flout and ignore WTO rulings, continue the refusal to implement any type of carbon pricing, and continue to encourage domestic production to the point of being in a position to promote dumping.

Existing tariffs, including those the US has had in place historically, are in place for a reason.

Subsidies to agriculture…. 88% of the USA farm bill is food SNAP benefits, formally known as food stamps.

We also export millions of tons of crops annually as food aid; sadly lack of over site means corrupt governments high large portions of the and repackage it for retail sale.

 

[YancyW]

Carbon Pricing....aka the Al Gore Climate Change SCAM that I wish I'd have thought of.

How dare you!!

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

You are so much more tactful than I. I was going to simply say: "Which they crushed until von Sutüben came along." But you beat me to it, and were much more polite.

General von Steuben - Valley Forge National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

 

[mutedblade]

"Folks like yourself who have no true understanding"......... That make you feel superior in some way? There truly is nothing more pathetic than someone taking it personnel when they are either unwilling or unable to discuss or debate the merits of defending any subject, much less our national interests. Especially when they actually know absolutely nothing meaningful about the other person.

No one here is defending spending 6 trillion dollars. What some knowledgeable people are suggesting is that within all that wastage there are any number of things that demand our attention. Sure, I am for real infrastructure investment. But ignoring critical national interests is the surest way we can create conditions where our future investments in both blood and treasure will be far far greater. The twentieth century offers two vivid examples of that sort of negligence.

Your last personal crack was in keeping with the sad start of your post. Since you assume to know all about it, allow me offer that my portfolio is quite a bit larger than defense stocks, and is doing very well thank you. How about yours? Are you an investment expert as well?

I am just pointing to the fact that you're not hurting for money and it seems you're willing to spend everyone else's money on something that isn't exactly tangible. Fix all of the problems in OUR country first, then maybe we'll see whether or not there's enough to go around to fix everyone else's problems. Honestly I wouldn't expect you to pay

At this point, the only people that see beating Russia to a pulp as being a critical national interest are the same stale Cold War hawks that made mountains of money saying so. Hell, even the EU and NATO in general don't seem to think that Russia is all that big of a problem, even now. Sure, they want to bloviate about the invasion but they continue to fund Russian war efforts against Ukraine. This ties directly back to the "Green" weenies in the EU that were pushing agendas and profiting all while screwing their citizenry and milking US taxpayers to boot.

Being called Pro Russia or Pro Putin now carries the same weight as being called a racist. If something doesn't fit a particular sides view, they automatically throw out the Russian propaganda card. Most American's couldn't care less if Putin choked on his own dick. Same goes for most dictators, including Z. What matters to most of us is taking care of our families the best way we can and it gets really hard when Uncle Sam takes everything we earn to give to someone else that isn't exactly putting in maximum effort.

 

[Red Leg]

Same goes for most dictators, including Z. What matters to most of us is taking care of our families the best way we can and it gets really hard when Uncle Sam takes everything we earn to give to someone else that isn't exactly putting in maximum effort.

Even Trump backed off ( actually denied he ever said it - probably forgot) calling Zelensky a dictator after someone among his sycophants apparently had the courage to point out to him that he was honestly elected, enjoys broad popular support, and all the opposition leaders support the martial law declaration which legally prevents an election until it is ended. Something you ought to look up.

What does anyone's income have to do with this issue? The international basis of our economic system insures that our domestic problems are inextricably linked to our international interests. Neither you nor any other neo-isolationist can wish that a way by simply ignoring it. As I have several times noted, we tried it twice last century at great cost. It is irrelevant whether you like it or not. Everyone else out there - friend, foe, or neutral - gets a vote as well.

Putin isn't going to - how did you so elegantly put it - "choke on his own dick." But he will be happy for you to do so - and your children and grandchildren. And "Uncle Sam takes everything we earn..." ? I don't much care for the alternative minimum, but you clearly need to get a better accountant.

As a nation we have to be able to do more than one than one thing at a time. We have no choice. It is a function of priorities. Thwarting the reemergence of a belligerent Russia in Europe should be a significant one.

 

[Red Leg]

This is from RedState, a decidedly right of center on line publication.

Russia Just Spit in Trump's Face, and It's Time They Reap the Whirlwind

redstate.com

Trump has thus far taken actions against Ukraine that are decimating its ability to defend itself. The most deadly thus far, were the cruise missile strikes enabled by the cut off of intelligence data to the Ukrainian armed forces. Civilians were killed and maimed by that attack along with a lot of physical damage.

You will have to color me skeptical that Trump actually will do anything to Russia.

 

[Wheels]

I think it is worth offering some context to this sort of thing before drawing too many conclusions about the insidious and supposedly incredibly effective efforts of Victoria Nuland or Jeffery Piatt.

The speaker is Oleg Tsaryov. He was a member of a pro-Russian parliamentary faction called called The Party of Regions. While he was pointing fingers at the United States as the anti-Russian demonstrations were beginning that would lead to the 2014 Maiden Revolution, his sponsors in the Kremlin were fomenting an actual insurgency in the Donbas and were well into their preparations for the Russian invasion of Crimea and the shoot down of a Malaysian airliner.

I am always amused, depending upon the narrative, how the CIA is either a bumbling institution incapable of any successful action in the nation's interest, or a sinister cabal capable of bending the will of whole nations.

I think the clearest indicator of what constitutes "truth" among these suppositions is the behavior of the Ukrainian people themselves. Rather than alleged puppets manipulated by any foreign power, Russian or American, for three long years they have fought valiantly with great skill and at great cost to defeat Russia and preserve THEIR right to self-determination for themselves and their decedents.

Sadly, the proponents of the Kremlin propaganda pandered by Mr Tsaryov seem to have won the day in this country as we systematically do nearly as much damage to Ukrainian warfighting capability in a month than Russia could achieve in three years.

Yanukovych was definitely walking the wire in Ukraine. The majority of people were west leaning yet a substantial minority didn't ascribe to those values and sided with Russia. Tsaryov included. Was what he said propaganda. Sure. Was what he said just prior to Maidan correct involving American involvement. Yes.

Nuland said in Congressional testimony said that America spent $5B in the years leading up to Maidan for America's own propaganda including influencing the media. Two weeks before Maidan, Piatt says we are "in play" and we need to get someone to "midwife this thing". (Leaked Nuland and Piatt phone call.) Nuland and Piatt knew what was going on before Maidan happened.

Hunter Biden's pardon goes back to January 2014. Why. Hunter Biden is rewarded with a board seat on Burisma in 2014 and pulled in a few million dollars, only after Yanukovych is ousted. When Trump tries to get Ukraine to look into this, the second impeachment begins. DOS, CIA, USAID, Biden, Nuland, Piatt and many others had too much on the line to allow an investigation to start. Zelensky had the ability to blow up the entire impeachment but who does he want in power. An off the wall Trump who he has no control over or a Biden who he has all the dirt on and can extort billions from. Which he did.

I am not discounting the valor of Ukrainians who showed up at Maidan Square not knowing what the outcome would be. Neither am I discounting the valor of Ukrainians who have fought and died to drive Russia out of the country. Too many have paid the ultimate price for their country.

What I am saddened and sickened over is the countless election interference, coups and wars beginning with Italy in 1948 that America has been involved in, and the millstone of debt that our children, grandchildren and greatgrandchildren are saddled with and will have to pay for in one form or another.

This does not make me a Putin or Russian apologist as you have insinuated I am in the past, or subject to Russian propaganda, which you have also insinuated. While I am an expert in virtually nothing, I do have the cognitive ability to analyze information, come to my own conclusions and speak my mind regardless of it's popularity, and still be a proud American.

 

[mdwest]

I am just pointing to the fact that you're not hurting for money

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of Trumps cabinet picks are exhorborantly wealthy, and very few of them have ever spent a day in the middle class, much less have a clue what "working class" life is like don't you?

Bessent is a pauper by comparison to most... his net worth is just a skosh over $500M..

Lutnick could buy Bessent with his pocket change.. he's worth north of $2B

McMahon is worth a cool $3.4B

Trump himself is worth just under $5B..

Stephen Feinberg is worth a little more than Trump with a $5B net worth..

Elon could buy all of them with the money he'll make between now and next Tuesday..

Yet you trust their positions and their intentions.. but assert others that have some measure financial freedom opinions arent of value because they're not hurting for money?

You know your situation better than anyone as a self described "peon".. but you think Robert Kennedy Jr (a mere peasant by comparison to most of Trumps cabinet with a net worth of a mere $15M) or Chris Wright ($150M net worth) best understand the "working man"... and not someone who was raised in the middle class in Louisiana, that spent a career in the military (I can assure you that even those who attain senior rank in the military live at or below the middle of middle class for the majority of their career)?

Something of a preposterous assumption on your part don't you think?

It may well be that you and @Red Leg disagree on a multitude of things.. Red Leg and I don't agree on everything..

but your belief that money has anything to do with it is pretty far fetched..

 

[Red Leg]

Yanukovych was definitely walking the wire in Ukraine. The majority of people were west leaning yet a substantial minority didn't ascribe to those values and sided with Russia. Tsaryov included. Was what he said propaganda. Sure. Was what he said just prior to Maidan correct involving American involvement. Yes.

Nuland said in Congressional testimony said that America spent $5B in the years leading up to Maidan for America's own propaganda including influencing the media. Two weeks before Maidan, Piatt says we are "in play" and we need to get someone to "midwife this thing". (Leaked Nuland and Piatt phone call.) Nuland and Piatt knew what was going on before Maidan happened.

Hunter Biden's pardon goes back to January 2014. Why. Hunter Biden is rewarded with a board seat on Burisma in 2014 and pulled in a few million dollars, only after Yanukovych is ousted. When Trump tries to get Ukraine to look into this, the second impeachment begins. DOS, CIA, USAID, Biden, Nuland, Piatt and many others had too much on the line to allow an investigation to start. Zelensky had the ability to blow up the entire impeachment but who does he want in power. An off the wall Trump who he has no control over or a Biden who he has all the dirt on and can extort billions from. Which he did.

I am not discounting the valor of Ukrainians who showed up at Maidan Square not knowing what the outcome would be. Neither am I discounting the valor of Ukrainians who have fought and died to drive Russia out of the country. Too many have paid the ultimate price for their country.

What I am saddened and sickened over is the countless election interference, coups and wars beginning with Italy in 1948 that America has been involved in, and the millstone of debt that our children, grandchildren and greatgrandchildren are saddled with and will have to pay for in one form or another.

This does not make me a Putin or Russian apologist as you have insinuated I am in the past, or subject to Russian propaganda, which you have also insinuated. While I am an expert in virtually nothing, I do have the cognitive ability to analyze information, come to my own conclusions and speak my mind regardless of it's popularity, and still be a proud American.

I respect your opinion on any issue. We are all guilty of repeating someone else's propaganda at one time or another - domestic or international. What I absolutely reject is the notion that the CIA caused the Ukrainian people to reject their version of Lukashenko. Did the CIA encourage dissidents, was the agency and the US government as a whole pleased with the results of the Maiden revolt? Of course. But they created nothing out of whole cloth.

We should also remember the context of that time. Russia was trying to maintain a pro-Russian regime, they were also fomenting an actual armed insurgency in the Donbas and preparing to seize Crimea. I simply do not see how anyone concludes it would be in our or Europe's national interests for Ukraine to have been reabsorbed into the Russian sphere of influence or even annexed.

I have no doubt that Biden, knowingly or unknowingly (God knows what he was actually cognizant of even by that point - the public bragging about the firing would seem to be a bit of evidence), was involved in blocking any meaningful investigation into Biden family intrigue in Ukraine. However, where I think we differ is that I believe Zelensky did exactly the right thing by not involving himself personally in what was clearly a US political issue. I have wondered what the cooperation may have been had Trump attempted to work this through an intermediary. Though, that sort of negotiation seems difficult for him.

Finally, I certainly don't approve of every US involvement militarily or otherwise since WWII. I did then oppose and do now deeply regret the US invasion of Iraq. It was neither necessary nor wise. Removing a secular Sunni government, however repugnant, was madness in a region ever more susceptible to Iranian influence. But interventions like Guatemala, the Dominican Republic, and Panama were certainly successful by cold war standards. Though the repressive regimes that replaced two of those governments were not necessarily the best outcome, we do not have the luxury of comparing them to a successful Marxist alternative.

I simply believe that the biggest obstacle that we could face in our contest with China would be a resurgent Russian empire threatening our interests in Europe. I also know, that those interests will not go away however much or little the European states contribute to their own defense, or how much voters in this country would like to ignore them.

I am absolutely certain that Trump's efforts to weaken our ties to Europe and NATO are utterly misguided. It is particularly frustrating now that Finland and Sweden have joined the Alliance putting Russia in the most unfavorable strategic position it has held since its defeat in the First World War. The defense of Ukraine, regardless what anyone thinks of Zelensky or the Ukrainian people, is what has enabled that "victory" which I am become more convinced every day Trump fully intends to discard.

 

[WAB]

Subsidies to agriculture…. 88% of the USA farm bill is food SNAP benefits, formally known as food stamps.

We also export millions of tons of crops annually as food aid; sadly lack of over site means corrupt governments high large portions of the and repackage it for retail sale.

I am genuinely interested in the resale of bulk grain in retail. Are there reports available on this? I’m just trying to envision how bulk corn and wheat can be sold in a retail market?

 

[WAB]

This is from RedState, a decidedly right of center on line publication.

Russia Just Spit in Trump's Face, and It's Time They Reap the Whirlwind

redstate.com

Trump has thus far taken actions against Ukraine that are decimating its ability to defend itself. The most deadly thus far, were the cruise missile strikes enabled by the cut off of intelligence data to the Ukrainian armed forces. Civilians were killed and maimed by that attack along with a lot of physical damage.

You will have to color me skeptical that Trump actually will do anything to Russia.

I wonder if it registers with him that his actions resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians?

 

[Red Leg]

I would normally say couldn't possibly, particularly with the means to prevent it by simply restarting the intel flow is a phone call away. I am afraid, however, personal grievance holds a place with our president that is alien to a normal human being.

 

[Tanks]

What matters to most of us is taking care of our families the best way we can and it gets really hard when Uncle Sam takes everything we earn to give to someone else that isn't exactly putting in maximum effort.

First, the Feds do not take everything you earn. Secondly, top 10% (income of $234K+) pay 72% of Federal income taxes (2022 numbers). So, unless you are up there in income your contribution to Ukraine is pennies if at all.

Most of the USA are free loaders complaining about their tax dollars being wasted where in reality it is other people’s money that is getting spent by the government.

There is a reason Bannon was up in arms about Musk and potential cuts to Medicaid as the recipients are, for the most part, the MAGA base. The same folks complaining about “their” tax dollars going to Ukraine while in reality they’d rather just get more for themselves. And no, obviously they are not the folks putting in “maximum effort “.

 

[Certus]

I agree with planting trees, the US has more trees then in recorded history. Trees like CO2. I do not believe that man made activities can change the climate in any appreciable fashion. Please convince me that I am wrong. Tell me if there are lifestyles that contribute to climate change.

Human culture and technology has been stunted in the past by “mini ice ages”. This has occurred on and off for the last recordable 800 years. With the exception of stratovarius violins I see nothing good taking place in these cold periods.

As a free thinking individual, I oppose ice ages, if you can convince me that my lifestyle contributes to global warming the I will adjust my wants for the global good. I will walk the earth with a giant carbon footprint, just call me Sasquatch. If forced to drive an electric vehicle I will tow a trailer burning tires. I have so much enjoyed the last 20 years of mild winters and will do my part to see that this continues.

And so my Australian friend, convince me that I can affect the climate and I will. I wish that this were true. So look at the irony, if I am made to believe that I am a factor In this then our lifestyles will cancel each other out. Hopefully you see the humor in this.

More trees than in recorded history??

Do tell how when compared to this?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

First, the Feds do not take everything you earn. Secondly, top 10% (income of $234K+) pay 72% of Federal income taxes (2022 numbers). So, unless you are up there in income your contribution to Ukraine is pennies if at all.

Most of the USA are free loaders complaining about their tax dollars being wasted where in reality it is other people’s money that is getting spent by the government.

There is a reason Bannon was up in arms about Musk and potential cuts to Medicaid as the recipients are, for the most part, the MAGA base. The same folks complaining about “their” tax dollars going to Ukraine while in reality they’d rather just get more for themselves. And no, obviously they are not the folks putting in “maximum effort “.

I know you’re right about the percentages but calling most of the USA freeloaders is a bit much. If a person works and pays taxes they should have a say. Same thing goes for your maximum effort comment. Kind of takes away from the millions of Americans that are hard working. Just because they aren’t in the upper percentiles doesn’t mean they aren’t putting in maximum effort.

I’m not saying you’re wrong about MAGA supporters and Medicaid and I even tend to agree with you but I would like to see some numbers to back that up before making that assertion.