Politics

[Pondoro]

I repeat.. reading is fundamental.. and actually knowing what you are talking about it pretty important too...

scan back a few pages.. just this week I was discussing the flaws in the way Trump is handling the crisis in Ukraine (my opinion)....

regarding sharing a border with Russia... don't you think the time to consider that quandary was decades ago? or perhaps if you're really slow to the punch maybe 2016 when Trump was threatening to pull the US out of NATO if the other NATO nations didn't start pulling their weight? or maybe if you're really really slow to figure things out maybe 6 months ago when it started looking like there was a very good chance Trump was going to become the President of the US again?

Norways defense spending is barely 1.6% of GDP.. NATO requires 2%...

but you want to bemoan your problem with sharing a border with Russia?

I dont bemoan anything.. And I agree that all NATO states need to rearm..that is long over due..but it is happening now.. We recently committed us to spend USD 165 billion more on defence and more is coming. All NATO states in western Europe is doing so..

Your argument that we should have known whats coming with Trump..he is highly unpredicable and you never know whats coming next week..

Furthermore, the handling of Ukraine and the toll circus is beyond me..

 

[deewayne2003]

I can’t believe you just called this gentleman MAGA, which I assume means that he approves of every word that comes out of the President’s mouth. Mdwest is one of the most balanced and knowledgeable members of this forum.

What he means by MAGA = Anyone who doesn't agree with him

 

[Red Leg]

If onstar can shut off your stolen GM vehicle via satellite; you can bet your ass the U.S. would have the same capability with something as lethal as exported military hardware.

Not exactly. However, there are dozens upon dozens of systems on that aircraft that require periodic software and firmware updating. The collaboration systems that make the F-35 so lethal also aren't particularly useful if there is no command and control interface (read AWACS) to enable that integration.

Without the US as an ally, the F-35 doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone.

 

[CJW]

With regards to defense I feel that Europe is finally waking up like I wrote previously. It seems to be a general feeling that the US under Trump can not be relied on in a conflict, and as a resultat european leaders finally has started to work on an alternative solution. The main problem here beeing that everything moves so slowly but I truly believe that Europe can manage on its own provided that european leaders make the right decisions and indeed invest in our own defense without factoring in an US response that very well might not come.

The tariffs and subsequent trade wars I think will hurt both players a lot and probably the only country that truly will gain from it in the long run is China who probably is looking forward to step in to fill the void buying at a discount like they now do with russian oil.

Did you Europeans feel better when Russia was making incursions into Ukraine, as well as fully anexing portions of it under American liberal administration's or when they weren't under Trump? How about Iran feeling safe about committing the genocide of 1200+ people on Oct. 7? Slow walking aid?

 

[Wheels]

The toll tariffs from EU to the US are low.. Now Trump out of the blue smack 25% on the table..That is starting a trade war.. For the record, Norway is not a member of the EU..

But cant you see the greater implications here, beyond the economics..? USA are loosing old friends by the hour with Trumps policies.. Many decades of trade and mutual military cooperation (NATO) out the window..

You MAGA people are beyond me..

You are correct that most tariffs between America and Norway are fairly low. Most European countries still tariff American goods at x2-x3 higher than America tariffs them, even though they are low. You don't think 25% is fair. What about Norway's VAT tax which if I remember correct is 25% on most goods coming into Norway from America. That is in effect a tariff. As Trump said, play fair with America and America will play fair with all countries, except for aluminum and steel which I doubt makes up much America/Norway trade. You act like Trump is a horrible individual for wanting free trade for American's while Norway (an old friend as you mention) has been a poor trade partner for decades charging America way more and limiting American goods. If Norway is an old friend, why have you treated America this way for decades. What kind of friend does that?

 

[Red Leg]

I know we are all experts on tariffs but I think it is also something of a tempest in a tea kettle. Goods tend to get all the attention, but services are in play as well. I again queried Grok which can do research far faster than I can with respect to the Tariff imbalance between the US and EU. Interesting response.

Yes, there is a tariff imbalance between the United States and the European Union, but it’s not as straightforward as it might seem at first glance. The imbalance exists primarily in specific sectors and depends on how you look at the overall trade relationship.

For goods, the EU tends to impose higher tariffs on U.S. exports than the U.S. does on EU exports. For example, the EU applies a 10% tariff on U.S. passenger car imports, while the U.S. charges just 2.5% on EU cars. However, the U.S. counters this with a much higher 25% tariff on pickup trucks from the EU (and most other countries), which protects its domestic truck market. On average, though, the EU’s tariffs on U.S. goods are slightly higher—around 4-6%—compared to the U.S. average of 3-4% on EU goods. This difference has been a point of contention, especially in industries like automotive and agriculture, where the EU also restricts U.S. exports through non-tariff barriers like stringent regulations on things like meat and dairy.

That said, the picture changes when you include services, not just goods. The U.S. enjoys a significant trade surplus with the EU in services—think finance, tech, and intellectual property—while the EU has a surplus in goods. Overall, the trade relationship is more balanced than the goods-only tariff numbers suggest, with the total imbalance hovering around 3% of their trade volume, or roughly $50 billion, depending on the year.

Recent news highlights this tension. In February 2025, U.S. President Donald Trump announced plans for 25% tariffs on EU goods, arguing the EU has been “unfair” and pointing to the goods deficit. The EU has pushed back, calling these measures unjustified and threatening retaliation, while also offering to negotiate lower tariffs, like reducing its 10% car tariff to match the U.S. 2.5%. Historically, both sides have kept tariffs low—averaging under 4%—since they’re bound by World Trade Organization rules, but sector-specific differences fuel the perception of imbalance.

So, yes, there’s an imbalance in tariffs for certain goods, but it’s exaggerated when you ignore services and the broader trade context. Both sides have their protectionist quirks—EU car tariffs and U.S. truck tariffs being prime examples—and the real story is more about political leverage than pure economics.

As @Wheels notes, I frankly think VAT, at least with respect to competitive goods (autos for instance), is the real culprit. I think that unfair charging practice sometimes is lost upon Europeans because it is part of the EU economic system, rather than a specific targeted import charge.

 

[Pondoro]

You are correct that most tariffs between America and Norway are fairly low. Most European countries still tariff American goods at x2-x3 higher than America tariffs them, even though they are low. You don't think 25% is fair. What about Norway's VAT tax which if I remember correct is 25% on most goods coming into Norway from America. That is in effect a tariff. As Trump said, play fair with America and America will play fair with all countries, except for aluminum and steel which I doubt makes up much America/Norway trade. You act like Trump is a horrible individual for wanting free trade for American's while Norway (an old friend as you mention) has been a poor trade partner for decades charging America way more and limiting American goods. If Norway is an old friend, why have you treated America this way for decades. What kind of friend does that?

Wheels, that VAT is on all foreign import to Norway.. No extra malign tariff on US goods.. That VAT is on all products retailed domestically too. I agree it is too high...we are also taxed high here..

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

I remember when Russia invaded there was a BBC report stating if the conflict escalated that many of the NATO EU nations would have less than 2 weeks worth of munitions on hand to fight the Russians.

There are only two explanations for this......

1. Incompetence
2. These nations have relied on the USA for security for so long they lost touch with reality.

I also remember Germany laughing at Trump when he told them not to rely on Russia for natural gas.......

I recall a story on the bbc word service last year where they were interviewing Germans on the street about increasing munitions production to support Ukraine and the people interviewed opposed the idea because they were worried that spending more money on the military could take away from social programs.

 

[Wheels]

Wheels, that VAT is on all foreign import to Norway.. No extra malign tariff on US goods.. That VAT is on all products retailed domestically too. I agree it is too high...we are taxed high here..

I understand that Norway's 25% VAT is on all imports. It is still a 25% tariff equivalent on those goods coming from America which America doesn't charge on goods coming from Norway.

I feel for you having to pay the VAT. I hated paying VAT on vehicles imported into Tanzania. Think it was 20%.

 

[Wheels]

I recall a story on the bbc word service last year where they were interviewing Germans on the street about increasing munitions production to support Ukraine and the people interviewed opposed the idea because they were worried that spending more money on the military could take away from social programs.

Some ten years ago, Germany showed up for joint military NATO exercises with brooms since no rifles were available.

 

[Red Leg]

ww

Wheels, that VAT is on all foreign import to Norway.. No extra malign tariff on US goods.. That VAT is on all products retailed domestically too. I agree it is too high...we are also taxed high here..

Except that 20% is refunded to the Norwegian exporter. The importer is hit with the full VAT.

 

[Pondoro]

I understand that Norway's 25% VAT is on all imports. It is still a 25% tariff equivalent on those goods coming from America which America doesn't charge on goods coming from Norway.

I feel for you having to pay the VAT. I hated paying VAT on vehicles imported into Tanzania. Think it was 20%.

As Red Leg stated, the european VAT policy is a part of the challenge to balance toll between the US and Europe.. But the whole situation is more balanced than Trump claims..

 

[Tanks]

Wheels, that VAT is on all foreign import to Norway.. No extra malign tariff on US goods.. That VAT is on all products retailed domestically too. I agree it is too high...we are also taxed high here..

Yeah, VAT is immaterial in regard to tariffs. It is basically a very high sales tax on all goods. Now, some companies do adjust for it making their goods not as painful to buy. I have bought Leica camera lenses and Leica M cameras from the UK as without the VAT it was significantly cheaper than buying it here and paying a sales tax on it.

 

[Red Leg]

Some ten years ago, Germany showed up for joint military NATO exercises with brooms since no rifles were available.

Close. It happened in Norway of all places in 2014 when a Panzergrenadier battalion showed up with wooden rods painted black mounted in their armored vehicles rather than actual machine guns. They were also short a lot of other equipment.

 

[Wheels]

Close. It happened in Norway of all places in 2014 when a Panzergrenadier battalion showed up with wooden rods painted black mounted in their armored vehicles rather than actual machine guns. They were also short a lot of other equipment.

Thanks for the clarification. The memory is getting old and feeble.

 

[Datchew]

I can’t believe you just called this gentleman MAGA, which I assume means that he approves of every word that comes out of the President’s mouth. Mdwest is one of the most balanced and knowledgeable members of this forum.

Well.... he does tend to wager a testicle now and then. So there's that. Otherwise... he's pretty ok.

 

[cwpayton]

If its true it is more something like the plane having to get updated every day, requiring a connection with Lockheeds main frame. It might very well be an urban legend the whole thing.

NO LEGEND ,THEY HAVE A KILL SWITCH ITS, TARGET ACQUIRED ,, LOCKED ON, FIRE

 

[Brent in Az]

Trump has made it pretty clear that the U.S is not going to be the world's sugar daddy anymore, and that's why that side of the world is foaming at the mouth.
The gravy train is coming to a screeching halt, and the parasites don't like it.
In the words of Nancy Pelosi "Let them eat cake"

 

[cwpayton]

Well.... he does tend to wager a testicle now and then. So there's that. Otherwise... he's pretty ok.

MAGA FOR ME IS MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, NOTHING TO DO WITH EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF TRUMPS MOUTH, HES NOT GOD. AND I THINK HES DOING A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF IT DOMESTICALLY, FOEIGN POLICY YET TO DETERMINED, BUT IT HAS EVERY BODY ON FIRE.

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

..but we have a border against Russia..

One wouldn’t know it from how little your countries have spent on defense over the last thirty years.

You yourself have unintentionally made Trump’s point, it’s your border to defend. Why should those in the Midwest pay for it when you won’t?

Don’t get me wrong, I am generally much more on Red Leg’s side on this issue. I appreciate American military supremacy as a factor in global stability. I oppose Russian expansionism and aggression. However, it is quite irritating to hear those who have had so little interest keeping their own militaries up to date suddenly discover their patriotism the moment the US President says it’s time to carry their weight.