Politics

[Brent in Az]

So what is next from Trump..? Claim reimbursement of the Marshall Plan..??

Take some. Maybe you'll feel better.

 

[Pondoro]

But we dont buy american military hardware, Europe make it.. Germany build better tanks, Sweden make excellent APC´s, several states make cruise missiles (the german Taurus has 500km range..Sweden just bought them..) Both the UK and France have nuclear weapons, both have nuclear powered attack subs..and boomers.

The new german chancler speek for Germany to build up a nuclear force, etc etc..

USA is currently in the race for a contract for new frigates to Norway, worth USD 35 billion.. I sincerely hope you dont get it.

 

[mdwest]

Prices will soar globally..toll is sand in the machinery for commerce. Inflation will probably be driven up..

lets go back to this comment...

if you genuinely believe that tariffs (tolls) are "sand in the machinery for commerce".. then how do you support EU tariffs on US goods that in most cases exceed current US tariffs on EU goods?

do you think EU sand is less harmful to the machinery than US sand?

Why wouldn't the EU simply remove its tariffs?

Trump has been clear.. if the EU removes its tariffs, the US wont put tariffs on the EU..

 

[mdwest]

But we dont buy american military hardware, Europe make it.. Germany build better tanks, Sweden make excellent APC´s, several states make cruise missiles (the german Taurus has 500km range..Sweden just bought them..) Both the UK and France have nuclear weapons, both have nuclear powered attack subs..and boomers.

The new german chancler speek for Germany to build up a nuclear force, etc etc..

USA is currently in the race for a contract for new frigates to Norway, worth USD 35 billion.. I sincerely hope you dont get it.

once again... so what?

military hardware isn't what is in the center of the tariff debate..

 

[Pondoro]

lets go back to this comment...

if you genuinely believe that tariffs (tolls) are "sand in the machinery for commerce".. then how do you support EU tariffs on US goods that in most cases exceed current US tariffs on EU goods?

do you think EU sand is less harmful to the machinery than US sand?

Why wouldn't the EU simply remove its tariffs?

Trump has been clear.. if the EU removes its tariffs, the US wont put tariffs on the EU..

We will see

 

[Pondoro]

once again... so what?

military hardware isn't what is in the center of the tariff debate..

It will affect your military industrial complex..

 

[mdwest]

so you have no argument at all? you think it is ok for the EU to tariff US goods.. but want to complain about the sand that the US is going to throw into the EU's machinery with tariffs..

so.. the EU acts in the EU's interest.. and that's ok..

but its bad when the US does it..

 

[mdwest]

It will affect your military industrial complex..

thats actually laughable if you knew anything at all about the military industrial complex in the US...

perhaps you should stick to topics you are knowledgeable of..

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Prices will soar globally..toll is sand in the machinery for commerce. Inflation will probably be driven up..

How about the EU just dropping their tariffs on the USA as Trump has asked? Then inflation should go down.

 

[Doubleplay]

Be sure and get his ghost writer in on the deal. His name is Tony Swartz. He gets a full fifty percent of the royalties.

Lol.
I don't think Trump even read his own book

 

[Doubleplay]

what exactly do you think "hurt" looks like to a man worth $400B?

he is currently earning are a little over $96M a day.. and that number is increasing, not decreasing.. he literally has so much wealth that the money he currently has earns at a pace faster than it can be spent..

If his net worth dropped to lets say $250B.. do you think that's hurting? (he was only worth $250B this time last year.. I don't think he was hurting then)..

What if it dropped to $100B.. do you think that is hurting?

What Musk revels in is being the center of attention... he prescribes to PT Barnums belief that he doesn't care what the papers say about him.. as long as they spell his name right..

Those signs in the UK that @Tanks posted.. I'd bet you my next paycheck that not only does he not care, he likely finds them funny and enjoys that he has peoples feathers ruffled (including yours)..

He was hated by the right in most of his younger years (he is by no means a social conservative).. he's now been hated by the left for most of the last decade...

Much like trump, he couldn't give a shit.. your opinion, the opinion of Euros not buying his cars, etc.. matter not..

What matters is you're all still talking about him.. and he is still making money faster than anyone else on the planet..

Notice the focus on Tesla... because that's the only measurable negative..

The EU has zero impact on SpaceX.. because it chose LONG before last November not to invest in SpaceX..

The EU has zero impact on Starlink.. because it chose LONG before last November not to invest in Starlink and instead has been working on its own competitive system..

Notice no talk about Gigafactories.. because Musk has been telling several european nations to pound sand that want them (Scotland for example).. and other EU countries like Germany are so heavily invested they cant break away from any deal made ($5B invested by Germany already with more funding planned)..

Twitter/X, Tesla, etc.. are a small fraction of Musks wealth.. and whether or not people abandon those brands or not will have limited impact (this has already been discussed prior in this very thread, specifically about X/Twitter.. the BANKS are losing money on the Twitter deal.. Musk is very much raking in a fortune).. .

A narcissist always hurts even if they lose a dollar.
They even hurt more when they lose the richest man of the World title.
He made the biggest mistake of his life by getting involved in DOGE.

 

[mdwest]

have you bothered to actually listen to any of his recent interviews or public statements?

Elon isn't motivated by the money.. he's motivated by the mission..

he's very clearly said he doesn't care if he loses money.. and he very clearly doesn't care who he pisses off in the process..

your opinion might be that DOGE was a mistake for him..

but he very obviously could care less about your opinion..

your opinion might be that all narcissists hurt when they lose a dollar..

but he could care less about that opinion either..

 

[KJE81]

Depends on who you ask...

The consensus of the conservative right, which is in power now whether a Swede likes it or not, is that Europe have taken advantage of US good will, and that it will not be taken advantage of any longer..

They point to higher tariffs on US goods than the US has historically placed on EU goods... they point to the US contributing a higher number of dollars (not % of GDP, but actual dollars) to the conflict in Ukraine than any EU nation.. and they point to the fact that while most of the NATO members have indeed stepped up their game SOME in terms of defense spending, many are still not meeting their contracted obligation and show no intent of doing so.. it might interest you that Sweden is among those countries still contributing less than 2% of its GDP.. in 2023 it contributed 1.4734%...


The liberals in the US don't seem to have a problem with the above.. the conservatives clearly do...

Well.. the conservatives are in power now..

Rather than crying, whining, and bitching like school children.. what exactly does the EU intend to do about it?

Again.. relationships are 2 way streets... WE got here because of BOTH parties.. and where we go from here is going to depend on BOTH parties and the decisions they make moving forward..

Actually I think Pondoro is Norwegian. Sweden was not a Nato member back in 2023, but was admitted in 2024. Our militarily spending seems to be more then 2 percent according to Natos own data https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_229526.htm

The government has initiated a further hike in defence spending since then, but as you probably know...politicians talk more then they actually get things done so I hardly think that the extra spending is showing as of yet.

 

[KJE81]

But we dont buy american military hardware, Europe make it.. Germany build better tanks, Sweden make excellent APC´s, several states make cruise missiles (the german Taurus has 500km range..Sweden just bought them..) Both the UK and France have nuclear weapons, both have nuclear powered attack subs..and boomers.

The new german chancler speek for Germany to build up a nuclear force, etc etc..

USA is currently in the race for a contract for new frigates to Norway, worth USD 35 billion.. I sincerely hope you dont get it.

Also the SAMP/T theatre anti missile system made by France/Italy is said to be at least equal to the MIM-103 Patriot. However many european countries have bought the Patriot including Sweden. It might prove to have been a very bad decision if Trump decides to support Russia in a future european war and denying to deliver missiles...

I also read that there is a kill switch in the F35 that US has full control over.

 

[WAB]

Trump now say he will put 25% toll on all goods from the EU.. He claims that EU was formed to exploit USA.. The latter is completely insane.

Actually he is right on that point. The EU was intended to pool economies and increase their economic might. As their biggest trading partner, this was obviously aimed directly at the USA. The EU has morphed over time, with Brussels stepping well beyond their intended scope and authority. Frankly, if Brussels had their way, members state sovereignty would be a thing of the past.

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

But we dont buy american military hardware, Europe make it.. Germany build better tanks, Sweden make excellent APC´s, several states make cruise missiles (the german Taurus has 500km range..Sweden just bought them..) Both the UK and France have nuclear weapons, both have nuclear powered attack subs..and boomers.

The new german chancler speek for Germany to build up a nuclear force, etc etc..

USA is currently in the race for a contract for new frigates to Norway, worth USD 35 billion.. I sincerely hope you dont get it.

The analysis here paints a pretty poor picture.

Fit for war in decades: sluggish German rearmament versus surging Russian defence production

It will take Germany, and Europe more generally, decades to match current Russian volumes of weapons production

www.bruegel.org

Germany has been underinvesting in its military for decades now.

“During the time of the ‘peace dividend’, Germany’s military capabilities decreased dramatically, to the point where the Bundeswehr “more or less stands bare,” according to German Army Inspector Alfons Mais, in February 2022 when Russia started its full-scale invasion of Ukraine. German military savings in the last three decades are estimated at €400 billion to €600 billion (Bardt, 2018; Röhl et al, 2023).

These considerable savings were associated with sharp reductions in military stock. By 2021, Germany had around 340 tanks, or just 8 percent of the more than 4000 West German tanks it had in 1992 and 14 percent of the 2400 tanks it had in 2004. The number of howitzers fell from more than 3000 in 1992 to almost 1000 in 2004 and a mere 120 in 2021. Similar numbers apply for other weapon systems. Even for the fighter jets that NATO puts significant emphasis on, numbers came down by more than 50 percent.

After this long period of disarmament, German capacities have only increased marginally since the 2022 invasion of Ukraine. In Wolff et al (2024a), we show it will take decades for Germany’s military stocks to reach 2004 levels at current procurement rates: 10 years for combat aircraft, 40 years for tanks and 100 years for howitzers. In comparison, it would take Russia only two to seven months to produce 2021 levels of Bundeswehr stocks.

German orders rose meaningfully only after July 2023 – a long delay compared to the swift Russian commitment in autumn 2022 to reinforce its weapons industry. The number of orders has now risen but the proportion of orders without a fixed delivery date has also risen, suggesting growing delays and production backlogs. And numbers remain relatively small. For example, only 22 howitzers have been ordered, a number so low that it does not compensate for the larger numbers of howitzers committed to Ukraine and pales relative to Russia’s monthly production of 38. For the main battle tank, the Leopard 2, it took until July 2024 to place more than the replacement order of 18 tanks. The 105 Leopard 2 ordered in July are only expected to be fully delivered by 2030.”

 

[deewayne2003]

so you have no argument at all? you think it is ok for the EU to tariff US goods.. but want to complain about the sand that the US is going to throw into the EU's machinery with tariffs..

so.. the EU acts in the EU's interest.. and that's ok..

but its bad when the US does it..

@mdwest you are forgetting the presumption of the feudal mindset of the EU........

"Tolls/Tariffs for thee but not for me!"

 

[mdwest]

Actually I think Pondoro is Norwegian. Sweden was not a Nato member back in 2023, but was admitted in 2024. Our militarily spending seems to be more then 2 percent according to Natos own data https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_229526.htm

The government has initiated a further hike in defence spending since then, but as you probably know...politicians talk more then they actually get things done so I hardly think that the extra spending is showing as of yet.

ok.. lets use Norway as an example...

while Norway did in fact increase its defense spending over the last few years (spurned to do so by Trump 45).. it still falls short.. 2023 spending was 1.6073 GDP..

Norway - Military Expenditure (% Of GDP) - 2025 Data 2026 Forecast 1960-2023 Historical

Military expenditure (% of GDP) in Norway was reported at 1.6073 % in 2023, according to the World Bank collection of development indicators, compiled from officially recognized sources. Norway - Military expenditure (% of GDP) - actual values, historical data, forecasts and projections were...

tradingeconomics.com

the larger point remains the same...

conservatives justify their position that the EU has abused its position with the US based on tariff inequality, defense spending, ukraine spending, etc..etc..

whether that's the shared opinion of the EU.. or liberals (not currently in power), etc.. isn't of consequence..

Unless the EU is willing to do something to convince the current US administration and the American people at large that it is not taking advantage of its relationship with the US.. then the US under its current administration will continue to take actions that it feels moves the relationship in a manner that best suits the US's overarching strategic goals and objectives..

If all the EU wants to do is scream orange man bad.. absolutely nothing is going to change.. if they want to scream "the economy will collapse" but do nothing other than complain.. absolutely nothing is going to change.. if they want to will ill upon the US and do nothing other than attempt to throw shade... absolutely nothing is going to change...

they have a choice to make..

negotiate (in their own interest.. as they always have in the past)...

or suffer the consequences of not negotiating..

saying "the US will suffer too!" once again does nothing to change anything.. clearly the current administration is willing to take that chance...

so EU.. the ball is in your court... what are you going to do about it other than bitch and moan?

 

[Wheels]

EU will of course answer with a similar toll on american goods..

At this point Trump has said with the exception of aluminum and steel if a country has tariffs, including VAT on America, America will imposed equivalent tariffs on them. What about that is not fair? As an American this fairness is 60 years too late. Why is it okay for Norway or the EU to have higher tariffs on American products than America has on imports from those locations. Off the top of my head, the EU has a balance of yearly trade of over $300B vs America. This has been going on for decades. If a country is truly a friend, why would they expect this disparity. It's like two friends going out for dinner once a week and one friend expects the other to pay for dinner week after week, year after year.

 

[mdwest]

I also read that there is a kill switch in the F35 that US has full control over.

things like that are not uncommon.. and similar options have almost definitely been built into French, German, Brit, Dutch, Swede, etc manufactured systems as well..

as an example, the version of the M1 tank sold to Kuwait is a hardware driven vehicle.. whereas the US versions are software driven...

need to "upgrade" a US M1? plug it in... and voila! you're upgraded..

need to upgrade the export version of the tank? order the parts.. that we may choose to sell, or not sell you.. and we may choose to install or not install for you..

again.. this isn't some "dirty trick" the US does.. its common in the defense industry and common among nations that want to control export of certain defense items.. its pretty much a universal practice..

I'd bet my left testicle that all of the EuroFighters that have been exported outside of the EU have multiple control measures built into them as well....