Politics

[YancyW]

The highest contributor in NATO to Ukraine as a percentage of GDP is Estonia at 4.1% and number two is Denmark at 3%. The mighty US provides only 0.3%. Only three NATO countries provide a lower percentage of GDP than the US. They are France, Italy, and Belgium and France is not a full member of the alliance.

Yes, I know in real dollar terms the US has contributed about 40% of the total (in kind and in actual monetary support). But if one of us gives half a million to a charity and if Elon Musk does the same, it is an identical amount but not quite the same thing is it.

As far as casualties. what would you sacrifice for your independence - to not be under the bootheel of a tyrant like Putin? Our ancestors pledged to each other, their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. Of those 56 signers of the declaration of independence

Nine fought and died from wounds or hardships during the war.
Five were captured by the British, charged with treason and were tortured before they died.
Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.
Two lost their sons serving in the Continental Army
Another had two sons captured.
Several lost wives, sons or entire families.
One lost his 13 children.
Two wives were brutally treated.
All were at one time or another the victims of manhunts and driven from their homes.
Seventeen lost everything they owned.

And of course the enormous sacrifices of so many more whose names are not recorded by history.

Yet, all of that sacrifice would have been in vain were it not for French military materiel and eventual French army and naval support. Without it that support, our revolution would have utterly failed. Yet to many, Ukraine doesn't have that right, and we should do nothing to support them. Were a reemerging belligerent Russia not a clear threat to our national interests, I would hope this nation before all others still would be supportive of Ukraine's fight for self determination and a democratic future aligned with the West.

I am thoroughly sick of these nonsensical comparisons to Vietnam or Afghanistan. I do not believe that I am the only one who may have noticed that the US does not have a single infantryman serving in Ukraine - not even any advisors or contractor support. It is Ukrainians who are sacrificing their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor for independence. They know the casualties they have suffered and they know the injury they have inflicted on their enemy. All they have asked for is the means to see this war to a just conclusion. The Biden administration provided barely the combat systems to survive (look at those percentage of GDP numbers again), and now Trump seems determined to force a settlement on them through a negotiation in which they are not even allowed to participate.

I am also thoroughly sick of the blame America first crowd. I despised them when they were leftists, and I find them no more appealing when they are suddenly on the right. This war began as a result of one thing. Vladimir Putin ordered and executed a brutal invasion. Against all expectations, Ukraine has fought that military to a standstill.

If we now sell out Ukraine to the Russians, I do not think history will treat us kindly.

I think you are being overly dramatic. Many feel Ukraine doesn't have a right to defend itself? That isn't true, it is a question of using US resources.

Ukraine is and has been the most corrupt county in Europe, Americans up to a couple years ago had never for second viewed them as an ally. Their admittance into EU has failed in large part because of systemic corruption, which doesn't instill much confidence for many Americans when it comes to sending 10s of billions to them. That is political reality, you aren't going to move anyone reluctant to additional US support by comparing Zelenskyy to Lewis Morris, Francis Lewis, John Adams etc.

 

[Hunt anything]

Trump is targeting federal probationary employee's who do dont have the civil servant protections

Not entirely true, my daughter was told she was no longer a probationary employee on February 1st, on February 13th RFK jr comes out and said on Fox “ if you’re working in public health, you have nothing to worry about” on February 15th at 7:00 pm she received an email that she was fired.

 

[Red Leg]

I think you are being overly dramatic. Many feel Ukraine doesn't have a right to defend itself? That isn't true, it is a question of using US resources.

Ukraine is and has been the most corrupt county in Europe, Americans up to a couple years ago had never for second viewed them as an ally. Their admittance into EU has failed in large part because of systemic corruption, which doesn't instill much confidence for many Americans when it comes to sending 10s of billions to them. That is political reality, you aren't going to move anyone reluctant to additional US support by comparing Zelenskyy to Lewis Morris, Francis Lewis, John Adams etc.

But I do not think I am, and I am not alone in this country whatever the broader consensus on this site.

Ukraine is actually on a path for EU membership regardless how NATO membership evolves. Part of that effort is cleaning up the corruption that was endemic when it was part of the Soviet Union.

Ukraine's current ratings are nothing about which to brag but significantly better than a few years ago. According to Trading Economics, in 2024 Ukraine was rated the 105th most corrupt economy in the world. As a comparison, Denmark is the least corrupt, the UK is 20th, the US is 28th, Greece 59th, Turkey 107th, and Russia 154th.

Based on the international challenges he has faced while fighting an existential conflict, I actually see him as more a Churchillian figure than one of our founders. The parallels to the roles of France in the Revolution and the US in Ukraine's fight for self determination are explicit.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

But I do not think I am, and I am not alone in this country whatever the broader consensus on this site.

Based on the international challenges he has face while fighting an existential conflict, I actually see him as more a Churchillian figure than one of our founders. The parallels to the roles of France in the Revolution and the US in Ukraine's fight for self determination are explicit.

Except that in the late 18th Century, France was willing to enter belligerent status with Britain, on our behalf or not.

 

[Hunt anything]

Except that in the late 18th Century, France was willing to enter belligerent status with Britain, on our behalf or not.

Back then the British and the French seemed to be in a permanent state of war, no excuse needed let’s just fight.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

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Back then the British and the French seemed to be in a permanent state of war, no excuse needed let’s just fight.

That’s exactly why it’s not an analogous situation as we have with Ukraine.

 

[mutedblade]

The highest contributor in NATO to Ukraine as a percentage of GDP is Estonia at 4.1% and the mighty US provides only 0.3%.

Yes, I know in real dollar terms the US has contributed about 40% of the total (in kind and in actual monetary support). But if one of us gives half a million to a charity and if Elon Musk does the same, it is an identical amount but not quite the same thing is it.

As far as casualties. what would you sacrifice for your independence - to not be under the bootheel of a tyrant like Putin? Our ancestors pledged to each other, their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

that sacrifice would have been in vain were it not for French military materiel and eventual French army and naval support.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, you are a retired army general. Your war hawking is evident and you clamoring about your financial losses in the defense sector paints a vivid picture of how intertwined you are with the Military Industrial Complex.

From my point of view .3% of our GDP could be used to rehabilitate our infrastructure. $81B is nothing to sneeze at. A country as corrupt as Ukraine deserves nothing from the US. There are already treaties in place to buffer NATO countries from Russia, but people seem to forget those, otherwise there would already be a peace keeping operation in effect. Ukraine has had 33+ years to get their house in order, but they have been playing both sides and taken money from the West and Russia. Only now they are squawking when Russia comes to collect.

You yourself have all but said that Ukraine is whipping the snot out of Russia, so why is NATO and the rest of Europe even worried about a country that can't even settle up against Ukraine which is 1/4 it's population? Too much going on domestically and abroad (China) for me to even worry about a mafia guy trying to take territory from another mafia guy.

I honestly take offense to you comparing their independence to ours! I'm guessing you forgot they already gained independence in 1991 and I'd say it was a direct result of the pressure applied by the USA on the USSR during the Cold War (how much money and how many lives did the USA sacrifice for that I wonder?). It was their responsibility to have elections and keep their country intact after that, not ours. To hell with anyone that says the USA isn't doing enough now. Speaking about elections, when was the last one that Ukraine had? Who suspended the most recent one to maintain his stranglehold on the money and power he has gained? Personally, I can't wait for that pos to end up in a ditch.

 

[mutedblade]

Back then the British and the French seemed to be in a permanent state of war, no excuse needed let’s just fight.

Red Leg seems to forget that France wasn't helping a nation form. It was helping itself by using Colonials as proxy against England. He must also have forgotten the outcome of the French spending all that money. Something about cake is what I seem to recall

Any comparison of our independence to Ukraine is shameful and disgusting.

 

[YancyW]

But I do not think I am, and I am not alone in this country whatever the broader consensus on this site.

Ukraine is actually on a path for EU membership regardless how NATO membership evolves. Part of that effort is cleaning up the corruption that was endemic when it was part of the Soviet Union.

Ukraine's current ratings are nothing about which to brag but significantly better than a few years ago. According to Trading Economics, in 2024 Ukraine was rated the 105th most corrupt economy in the world. As a comparison, Denmark is the least corrupt, the UK is 20th, the US is 28th, Greece 59th, Turkey 107th, and Russia 154th.

Based on the international challenges he has faced while fighting an existential conflict, I actually see him as more a Churchillian figure than one of our founders. The parallels to the roles of France in the Revolution and the US in Ukraine's fight for self determination are explicit.

I have some questions and a few thoughts, but I'm not going join the piling on I see happening now with this post.

 

[Wheels]

I find this post by Musk interesting and disturbing. Do we really have 394 million on the Social Security Rolls vs a census population of 330 million and a citizen population of 310 million. Yes I do understand non American's can be here legally, and must pay into SS, but the numbers seem very excessive. Yes I understand that these are just active SS numbers and not everyone on the list is receiving benefits but my guess is that a significant number of the people over 65 are receiving benefits.

If the oldest confirmed American is around 115 then you figure everyone on the list over 120 is dead a rough calculation would probably show SS payment savings of over 200B per year.

If anyone knows who the Methuselah is on the list let me know. I would love to hear them tell of their experience in the Revolutionary War.

It is sad that the Social Security Administration hasn't policed itself better over the years.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1891350795452654076

 

[LivingTheDream]

Whether it offends you or not, virtually every NATO country has done proportionately more to aid Ukraine than the United States. That is a fact.

With respect to an accountant's slight of hand, I am not sure what you mean. It is largely a simple budgetary drill.

How else would you describe this process?

An M1A1 is pulled out of storage in the AZ desert. A maintenance team goes over it and makes it combat worthy. The parts associated with the overhaul and military labor time are charged to the Ukraine appropriation rather than a US Army logistics support appropriation. US Army depot maintenance teams and some contractors would be doing the work (the contractor is already on contract to the depot).

Then, a value is attached to the used tank. After all, you and I paid for it. That used tank value is then also subtracted from the Ukraine appropriation. Finally, the tank and its sisters are loaded on a naval transport and shipped to Germany for forward rail transport to Poland. That transport cost is also deducted from the appropriation. I am a decade out of date, but I would suggest the US is charging a total of around 10 million a platform for each tank arriving in theater.

Note that not a single dollar has changed hands anywhere. Not a nickel has left the US. The amounts are simply an accounting deduction from the appropriation to support Ukraine. Whether platforms, weapons, ammunition, or training, that is how military drawdown assistance works when funded by the US.

Sir, I am agreeing with you regarding Ukraine spending. Not offended in anyway, just pointing the flaw in your logic. Fact we paided more in total dollars. Saying I pay more in taxes than Warren Buffet or Elon Musk because my percentage higher is flawed logic

You literally described the accountant slight of hand, "a budgetary drill with a value assigned". With much of what we given them being at End of Life, the value could be zero, or a dollar, my point being the value is assigned based on some depreciation schedule. We could get them everything and assign a value of a dollar, we could sell them everything for a dollar. This is the accountant game, and I find it beyond frustrating since as you mention not an actual dollar is exchanging hands. I dont like how politics gets played while people die, but that is where I am bit naive.

 

[Datchew]

Now, if I'm not mistaken, you are a retired army general. Your war hawking is evident and you clamoring about your financial losses in the defense sector paints a vivid picture of how intertwined you are with the Military Industrial Complex.

From my point of view .3% of our GDP could be used to rehabilitate our infrastructure. $81B is nothing to sneeze at. A country as corrupt as Ukraine deserves nothing from the US. There are already treaties in place to buffer NATO countries from Russia, but people seem to forget those, otherwise there would already be a peace keeping operation in effect. Ukraine has had 33+ years to get their house in order, but they have been playing both sides and taken money from the West and Russia. Only now they are squawking when Russia comes to collect.

You yourself have all but said that Ukraine is whipping the snot out of Russia, so why is NATO and the rest of Europe even worried about a country that can't even settle up against Ukraine which is 1/4 it's population? Too much going on domestically and abroad (China) for me to even worry about a mafia guy trying to take territory from another mafia guy.

I honestly take offense to you comparing their independence to ours! I'm guessing you forgot they already gained independence in 1991 and I'd say it was a direct result of the pressure applied by the USA on the USSR during the Cold War (how much money and how many lives did the USA sacrifice for that I wonder?). It was their responsibility to have elections and keep their country intact after that, not ours. To hell with anyone that says the USA isn't doing enough now. Speaking about elections, when was the last one that Ukraine had? Who suspended the most recent one to maintain his stranglehold on the money and power he has gained? Personally, I can't wait for that pos to end up in a ditch.

I agree on the point about comparing Ukraine to America's war for Independence

It's all good and makes a nice chest thumping narrative to repeat the legacy of our founders as if none of us were aware of it already or heard it on am radio from Paul Harvey.

But America resented a biased economical situation and took the chance for freedom and in doing so further distilled the ever developing beacon of western liberty.

Ukraine, at the behest of either Langley or London (you be the judge) staged a coup against an elected government because supposedly said govt was too cozy with the rooskies. This was after promises not to expand further. Then they kept pushing and imo, picked a fight they couldn't finish and risk pulling us all into it.

It's an apples to cumquats comparison.

Worse, instead of trying to destabilize communism via western economic methods, we've welded the Russians and the Chinese into lockstep unity with the small "rounding errors" of wasted tax money and heaps of dead bodies.

Plz show me the upside here.

The cold war quasi-rinos on here have good points but the play book is getting old and it's boring.
They hate trump and will continue to do so.

I like trump because he had and has all the right enemies.
I dislike zelensky because he has all the wrong friends.

*Edit for stupid phone typos*

 

[Datchew]

Red Leg seems to forget that France wasn't helping a nation form. It was helping itself by using Colonials as proxy against England. He must also have forgotten the outcome of the French spending all that money. Something about cake is what I seem to recall

Any comparison of our independence to Ukraine is shameful and disgusting.

I also disagree on @Red Leg comparison but I would call it inappropriate instead of shameful. Definitely not disgusting.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

I agree on the point about comparing Ukraine to America's war for Independence

It's an apples to cumquats comparison.

.

I love a good cumquat analogy.

 

[rookhawk]

I find this post by Musk interesting and disturbing. Do we really have 394 million on the Social Security Rolls vs a census population of 330 million and a citizen population of 310 million. Yes I do understand non American's can be here legally, and must pay into SS, but the numbers seem very excessive. Yes I understand that these are just active SS numbers and not everyone on the list is receiving benefits but my guess is that a significant number of the people over 65 are receiving benefits.

If the oldest confirmed American is around 115 then you figure everyone on the list over 120 is dead a rough calculation would probably show SS payment savings of over 200B per year.

If anyone knows who the Methuselah is on the list let me know. I would love to hear them tell of their experience in the Revolutionary War.

It is sad that the Social Security Administration hasn't policed itself better over the years.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1891350795452654076

A dear friend of mine just had two tragedies in 10 days, the loss of his spouse and the loss of his father. (Father was 95, spouse was 70ish) The mortal remains weren’t even cold yet and the auto-payment of social security benefits was cut off. The local banks immediately reversed the auto-deposits as soon as they were aware of their passing, neither have been issued death certificates yet.

The point: I find it deeply suspicious that SSA is paying out all these benefits to old people when they are incredibly vigilant to cease all payments within DAYS of passing sans a death certificate.

Unrelated, but I have another story that is first hand. I was a senior executive at a company that did all the processing for the means-test based Social Security supplemental income program. We also happened to have a database of every bank in America. We found that using simple technology, we could reject 16% of all applications for that program because they withheld accounts in their name during the application process. (Obviously to hide money which would preclude eligibility). Mind you, this wasn’t rocket science, but we’re talking about billions of dollars in benefits surely. The government was not interested in this service and would not allow us to use this simple vetting process that would reject about 1:7 of all applications automatically for cause.

 

[steve white]

I find this post by Musk interesting and disturbing. Do we really have 394 million on the Social Security Rolls vs a census population of 330 million and a citizen population of 310 million. Yes I do understand non American's can be here legally, and must pay into SS, but the numbers seem very excessive. Yes I understand that these are just active SS numbers and not everyone on the list is receiving benefits but my guess is that a significant number of the people over 65 are receiving benefits.

If the oldest confirmed American is around 115 then you figure everyone on the list over 120 is dead a rough calculation would probably show SS payment savings of over 200B per year.

If anyone knows who the Methuselah is on the list let me know. I would love to hear them tell of their experience in the Revolutionary War.

It is sad that the Social Security Administration hasn't policed itself better over the years.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1891350795452654076

I don't know enough about computers to even be dangerous, but my son in law (works for Northrup Grumman) says the numbers are skewed by what he called a COBAL program, and that they don't represent what they might appear to represent.

 

[Wheels]

Well, there you have it..Trump and his administration is as right wing as AfD, Meloni and Victor Orban and Fidescz.. Lets see how this will play out in Europe.

I guess the long period of western Europe and the US being close allies in NATO is history.

This attached clip is the current view of German prosecutors from an interview yesterday on American TV. The German government is raiding peoples homes in the middle of the night and arresting people and confiscating electronics who have said/posted/reposted something the government deems insulting. In other words the government is the determiner, judge and jury of what can be said. This is very reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's. The AFD is opposed to this. Free speech has been a western idea since before Socrates death for free speech. As an American perhaps I value this Human Right far more than Europeans and others in the west.

Jerome does a good job of allowing us to post free thoughts in this thread. Some good, some bad, some articulate, some not, some correct, some uninformed. There is no way the human species can learn, adapt, and grow without thinking out loud and sharing ideas. To share ideas one always takes the risk of insulting another, intentional or not. The members of AH do a good job of self policing. I have reposted inaccurate information before believing the source was correct. I also hold opinions contrary to the current German coalition government. If I was in Germany I could be fined and imprisoned for my views. If the AFD is the German party for free speech and more freedom for the masses, it is easy to see why they are gaining popularity. The upcoming German election will be interesting to watch unfold. We will all see which version of Germany the citizens choose to live in.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1891302425190863347

 

[Wheels]

I don't know enough about computers to even be dangerous, but my son in law (works for Northrup Grumman) says the numbers are skewed by what he called a COBAL program, and that they don't represent what they might appear to represent.

I have read the same regarding COBOL. An issue that I have is that Social Security is still using a computer language I learned in college in the 1970's to run at least parts of their system. You have to question SS management for not updating and cleaning up the system in the last 50 years. Bessent said that Treasury was run on COBOL.

There are probably some reasonable explanations for much of the 394 million open SS numbers. But you still have to question the management for not updating and having a clean system.

 

[rookhawk]

I don't know enough about computers to even be dangerous, but my son in law (works for Northrup Grumman) says the numbers are skewed by what he called a COBAL program, and that they don't represent what they might appear to represent.

It could be the cumulative entities in the SSA database. Remember there are many programs one person could be enrolled in. Over 65 SS benefits, permanently disabled, legally blind, minors and dependents, needs-based supplemental income. So it’s plausible that there is a skew.

I do have a problem thinking there are 394m participants in traditianal social security because any illegal worth their salt has never paid a dime, they form an LLC to be painters, roofers, carpenters, lawn care guys, etc. and simply pay the 7.5% employer portion against a made-up SSN if they pay it at all. Most of the remainder are paid cash under the table as hourly help.

 

[YancyW]

I have read the same regarding COBOL. An issue that I have is that Social Security is still using a computer language I learned in college in the 1970's to run at least parts of their system. You have to question SS management for not updating and cleaning up the system in the last 50 years. Bessent said that Treasury was run on COBOL.

There are probably some reasonable explanations for much of the 394 million open SS numbers. But you still have to question the management for not updating and having a clean system.

There are many state government departments still running COBOL.