Politics

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Again, I make assertions based on the facts I see before my own eyes... It has absolutely nothing to do with feeling superior or smarter than anybody... Furthermore, where did I ever state that any particular part of any specific constituency answers to me? I was merely pointing out why constituencies tend to do what they do, and I see that changing given this most recent mandate from the results of the election... The RINOs, Never-Trumpers, etc., all have a choice... They can wise up to the reckoning of the people, or they will be voted out... I see no future for the likes of the McCains, Romneys, Cheneys, or the McConnells of the party and their "ilk" as you like to put it...

You keep insisting that Trump still needs the votes... No, Trump does not need the votes... The Americans who voted him back into office to carry out their will demand the votes from the republican party to honor that mandate.... I suspect that those who do not this time around will not survive politically... We will see who's contentions age better...



VDH is spot on in his assessment...

Not sure what indirect point you were trying to make?? Please enlighten me...



Trump's political resurrection is not merely a product of the failings of the left... If that was the case, Trump would not have dominated the primary. There were many solid republican candidates that were rejected by the party which Trump continued to dominate in spite of what most considered the end of his political career and popularity after the 2020 loss... Trump still brings intangibles to the table that other republicans do not...

His re-election is a huge indication that Trump policies are far more popular with a much broader array of the American electorate than many here are willing to acknowledge... The "razor thin election" that was predicted turned into a blowout in large part because so many on both sides refused to acknowledge Trump's appeal to what we now know to be a very wide swath of the electorate... The left's argument will be that Trump would have been easily defeated with a better candidate... What they fail to understand is that currently don't have one in the entirety of the democratic party with a broad enough centrist appeal, and likely won't for the foreseeable future...

In regard to "going too far in the other direction", I would be interested to know some examples of what you think that looks like..? Conservative Americans have every right to be angry after being characterized by every conceivable demonization the left could think of... Many have suffered tangible loss as a result of these attacks. Many more conservatives like me, view those on the far left as a literal domestic enemy... So, what does "too far" in the correction process look like?

Well first of all, I said that Trump's comback was "in part" due to the failings of the Democrats. That inherently implies it doesn't entirely explain that return to the WH.

I agree with you that Trump's policies did resonate with more of the electorate than the Democrats wish to accept or even consider without the continuing insult of those voters. It's mind boggling to me that they actually wish to continue down that negative path while claiming to be for diversity and inclusion. Diversity and inclusion is all good with them until you actually have a diverse opinion that doesn't agree with theirs at which point you shall be excluded.

As for what I mean by going to far to the right. I can't say I have any specific examples just yet of this as Trump hasn't taken office yet. But a few possibilities I can think of:

1. Taxes - Trump has ran on a platform of cutting taxes and specifically to the working class. Great, I hate paying taxes as much as anyone, so if I'm included in any of those tax cuts, fantastic. But what I am concerned about more is our national debt. It's quite high now and if Trump wants me to think of him as a true fiscal conservative, he needs to at the least match tax cuts with spending cuts too. If he does push for spending cuts, he could/may go far enough and start to lose these new found Republican votes. But I'm not even sure he would cut spending and thus exacerbate the debt problem we have. He said during his first go around that he would borrow even more money.

2. Immigration - I agree it's a problem and needs to be dealt with. Round up millions of illegals and deporting them, I'm not even sure that's feasible. But let's say it is and he starts down that path. Now think about that kid Clinton had deported at gun point, how do you think that would go over?

3. Ukraine - I believe any reasonable person wants to see an end to that war. But if Trump manages to bring that about but in so doing hands Putin anything that looks like victory, it would be as bad if not worse than Biden saying "a minor Russian incursion into Ukraine would be acceptable." Paraphrasing a bit on that last part. But if that were to happen, I'm not sure it would over well with the electorate.

Will any of these things come about? I don't know, we'll have to wait and see. Whatever the case, the battle for the middle ground voters will remain in future elections. Trump managed to swing those voters to his side this election, I think it wise to avoid pushing them back to the left and repeating the error of the Democrats.

 

[BSO Dave]

You don’t understand mathematics, much less the formulation of legislation. We will never get EVERYONE to agree to ALL of our beliefs but we can still win the war without winning every battle.

LOL... I don't think it's me that lacks the understanding in the points being made...

Obviously, getting everyone to agree 100% of the time is impossible, but that's not even close to the point I'm making. Old guard republicans are part of the D.C. establishment and therefore, part of the problem. The infighting is the result of a certain faction of the body who actually came to D.C. taking take their mandates very literally, while the old republican establishment members want to continue to make deals and line their pockets at the expense of the American people... Continuing this of doing things wins no wars or battles on behalf of anyone but those in D.C... The problem is not that at the system is broken, but it is terribly corrupted... Those few that are committed to breaking the wheel in a very unfriendly political climate should be applauded as patriots instead of being branded as agitators.

What you and others continue to fail to understand is that the old republican party is changing more towards populism which is a great thing in my view because it appeals to a much bigger electorate... Those old guard republicans who continue to dwell in the swamp and capitulate to the left for their own benefits need to go away... With their ilk gone, most of the infighting and disagreement will go with them... They now have a choice to embrace the new mandate (which won't happen) or be weaned out over the next few election cycles... Time will tell who among us is interpreting it correctly....

 

[Scott CWO]

But not all. You want a segment of society not to vote if they are not working?

Fine, let's put a limit. Only the people who make $100K+ get to vote as they are the ones supporting the government services and spending with their taxes as they have more skin in the game. The rest get more than they put in.

Do you have any idea of how many dead beats vote but don’t even file taxes? The IRS doesn’t do a damn thing about it but will dang sure come after you and I. Should people be allowed to vote who intentionally disregard tax filing laws? Do they have any taxpayer skin in the game?

I have worked since the eighth grade and have filed my taxes since then. Maybe you didn’t have a job as a teen or require your kids to get a job as teens but most do.

 

[Tanks]

Do you have any idea of how many dead beats vote but don’t even file taxes? The IRS doesn’t do a damn thing about it but will dang sure come after you and I. Should people be allowed to vote who intentionally disregard tax filing laws? Do they have any taxpayer skin in the game?

I have worked since the eighth grade and have filed my taxes since then. Maybe you didn’t have a job as a teen or require your kids to get a job as teens but most do.

There are also a lot of women co-habiting in a relationship that are not working hence not filing taxes. Should they lose their right to vote?

How about other rights and privileges? Can't own a gun, get a hunting license, drive, get a passport etc., if one has not worked and paid taxes? Heck, most high school seniors or college students where I live would not qualify. Neither would Barron Trump.

As far as my kids go, they asked me if they should get a part-time job during college. My response was that they already had a full-time job go to school and get good grades so they could get a job or get into grad school. Much better return from the time investment as far as I was concerned.

 

[BSO Dave]

1. Taxes - Trump has ran on a platform of cutting taxes and specifically to the working class. Great, I hate paying taxes as much as anyone, so if I'm included in any of those tax cuts, fantastic. But what I am concerned about more is our national debt. It's quite high now and if Trump wants me to think of him as a true fiscal conservative, he needs to at the least match tax cuts with spending cuts too. If he does push for spending cuts, he could/may go far enough and start to lose these new found Republican votes. But I'm not even sure he would cut spending and thus exacerbate the debt problem we have. He said during his first go around that he would borrow even more money.

2. Immigration - I agree it's a problem and needs to be dealt with. Round up millions of illegals and deporting them, I'm not even sure that's feasible. But let's say it is and he starts down that path. Now think about that kid Clinton had deported at gun point, how do you think that would go over?

3. Ukraine - I believe any reasonable person wants to see an end to that war. But if Trump manages to bring that about but in so doing hands Putin anything that looks like victory, it would be as bad if not worse than Biden saying "a minor Russian incursion into Ukraine would be acceptable." Paraphrasing a bit on that last part. But if that were to happen, I'm not sure it would over well with the electorate.

Will any of these things come about? I don't know, we'll have to wait and see. Whatever the case, the battle for the middle ground voters will remain in future elections. Trump managed to swing those voters to his side this election, I think it wise to avoid pushing them back to the left and repeating the error of the Democrats.

All very legitimate points...

I was thinking you were going in another direction with his initially specifically in regard to the people themselves taking things too far...

I doubt this is news to you, but Trump is hardly a fiscal conservative, so you may be disappointed there... His lack of fiscal conservatism is actually one of the few things I do not like about him... I don't see any real progress on reducing the debt with any significance in his term if at all, but he can still have meaningful impact to overall growth, wages, and tax reduction while keeping the debt incursion to a minimum...

At some point, and I don't know where, somebody in D.C. is going to have to tell the hard truths about practical measures needed to actually pay down the debt. The problem is that telling the truth is political suicide for anyone who articulates real solutions like drastic cuts to the biggest social programs and the like... Freedom Caucus members were some of first to attempt it, and it has been very unpopular for obvious reasons but, that doesn't change the facts surrounding the crisis...

In regard to immigration, if Trump can close the border, reinstitute his previous EO's to remain in the country of origin, finish the wall, and start and end with deportation of criminals and adult males and it would be regarded as a huge success in the eyes of most Americans. Separating children from families is a scenario he can easily avoid and still have meaningful impact on the crisis. Actual legislative derived comprehensive immigration reform will likely be his biggest legacy if he can achieve it during his term.

Ukraine will be interesting... His promise was to end the war without offering specifics... I'm not sure ending the war, regardless of the conditions, won't be viewed as a successful delivery on his promise to those that voted for him... With the exception of a few here, success in Ukraine for most Trump supporters would be interpreted as a conclusion to the hostilities without future financial commitment on behalf of the U.S... I think Trump can facilitate that fairly easily...

 

[fourfive8]

This ignoring of or pretending that or minimizing the issue of non-citizen voting baffles me. It’s like I’m living in an alternate universe! Someone please articulate how it’s ok or a constitutional right for a non-citizen to vote… please do! I have zero, zip, nada respect for those who choose to knowingly ignore or rationalize this.

Yesterday I watched a knowledgeable insider, one who eats, breathes and works on voter integrity across the country, state with some certainty that about 1.5 million non-citizens are currently registered to vote in the US.

“Motor voter” is an old concept originally sold as a way to entice lazy-assed, dependent class citizens to register to vote. The commiedems in charge in blue states have quickly learned how to use this technique to get their latest and future beholding non-citizen class to register to vote without even actively or overtly doing so. Just allow non-citizens to get state IDs and driver’s licenses. During that process they are automatically registered to vote. How slick is that! Then come election time the state sends that voter roll list to the local election official- usually the county clerk. The county clerk then mails ballots to those on that ID or driver’s license list as supplied by the state. The signatures all match…even if the county clerk or election officials bother to check. Voila! That ballot cast by a non-citizen is considered valid- ignorance is bliss. It was successfully laundered through the system.

 

[BSO Dave]

There are also a lot of women co-habiting in a relationship that are not working hence not filing taxes. Should they lose their right to vote?

How about other rights and privileges? Can't own a gun, get a hunting license, drive, get a passport etc., if one has not worked and paid taxes? Heck, most high school seniors or college students where I live would not qualify. Neither would Barron Trump.

As far as my kids go, they asked me if they should get a part-time job during college. My response was that they already had a full-time job go to school and get good grades so they could get a job or get into grad school. Much better return from the time investment as far as I was concerned.

Interestingly, all of these things that you mention were seriously considered and debated during the Constitutional Convention. Many very bright and influential men in attendance asserted that only those who had skin in the game such as property owners, business owners, and those with formal educations should have the right to vote... The original exclusion of women and African Americans is a testament to that rationalization...

I actually do think some sort of "skin" in the game should be required to vote beyond merely being an 18-year-old citizen of the country... Voting is a tremendous responsibility that has historically required no basis for earning that responsibility. Maybe that should change...

 

[HankBuck]

There are also a lot of women co-habiting in a relationship that are not working hence not filing taxes. Should they lose their right to vote?

How about other rights and privileges? Can't own a gun, get a hunting license, drive, get a passport etc., if one has not worked and paid taxes? Heck, most high school seniors or college students where I live would not qualify. Neither would Barron Trump.

As far as my kids go, they asked me if they should get a part-time job during college. My response was that they already had a full-time job go to school and get good grades so they could get a job or get into grad school. Much better return from the time investment as far as I was concerned.

@Tanks - you pose a good Question “Should Women lose their right to Vote”? Up until 1920 Women Couldn’t Vote and things seemed to go OK…maybe give it a TRY again? I think that would be a very tough bill to pass and especially winning over Women to use their “Final Vote” to help it pass !! Now, Please have the common decency NOT to let my Wife read this post !

 

[Hunt anything]

How does anyone in today’s world not function without a government issued ID, I’m 60 and I bought a bottle of wine yesterday and was still asked for n ID. You can’t go to the bank to cash a check or even deposit money in an account, no plane travel you can’t even get a post office box and multiple other activities in this country. I believe just about every state has some mechanism to get people the ID that is required to vote.

I don’t know if it’s 100% accurate or not but many of the places that the democrats won are areas that don’t require any form of Identification. If true it has to make you think a little.

 

[1dirthawker]

Yes, we all can. However, let's say I don't have a car and barely making ends meet. First I'd have to go through the process of getting a copy of the birth certificate(at a cost), get TWO proofs of residency which is difficult for a lot of people, pay to get a State issued ID and spend 2+ ours at DMV to get that done. That is quite a hurdle for a segment of society.

yeah,

i suppose we can make getting a drivers license, or a state issued ID very hard for the .5%, but, ask anybody you work with, or, eat at their restaurant, or friends or family if they have an ID. bet the answer is....of course.

how many people do you personally know that don't have one? getting an ID is just not that big of a deal and they will need one for all the other "grown up stuff" they want to do in their life, like drinking/buying beer or flying on a plane, or signing up for a bank account, or opening an account for a power company or getting a loan for anything, etc.

 

[Tanks]

yeah,

i suppose we can make getting a drivers license, or a state issued ID very hard for the .5%, but, ask anybody you work with, or, eat at their restaurant, or friends or family if they have an ID. bet the answer is....of course.

how many people do you personally know that don't have one? getting an ID is just not that big of a deal and they will need one for all the other "grown up stuff" they want to do in their life, like drinking/buying beer or flying on a plane, or signing up for a bank account, or opening an account for a power company or getting a loan for anything, etc.

There is a huge difference between an ID and "RealID" that proves citizenship. Requirement for the latter is pretty stringent as I mentioned previously.

 

[LivingTheDream]

1040? So, now we'd require people to work and file taxes before they can vote? So, no college students etc., should vote now?

Here would be a pretty fair solution, everyone over the age of 18 has to register for/with selective service. In order to vote you have to show you have registered.

 

[John Wasmuth]

How does anyone in today’s world not function without a government issued ID, I’m 60 and I bought a bottle of wine yesterday and was still asked for n ID. You can’t go to the bank to cash a check or even deposit money in an account, no plane travel you can’t even get a post office box and multiple other activities in this country. I believe just about every state has some mechanism to get people the ID that is required to vote.

I don’t know if it’s 100% accurate or not but many of the places that the democrats won are areas that don’t require any form of Identification. If true it has to make you think a little.

It’s a false narrative the democrats use to keep the minorities on the Rez, it’s basically telling people, “ you’re not smart enough to know how to obtain an ID so we’ll protect you and keep you from having to get one”. It shows how the white liberals really feel about minorities……….. don’t believe me? Listen to their argument……

 

[Dirtdart]

Fine, let's put a limit. Only the people who make $100K+ get to vote as they are the ones supporting the government services and spending with their taxes as they have more skin in the game. The rest get more than they put in.

There are many military veterans that wrote a blank check to this country payable with their life if called for that make less than $100K a year. Skin in the game

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Here would be a pretty fair solution, everyone over the age of 18 has to register for/with selective service. In order to vote you have to show you have registered.

Women are not required to register (I think). So your proposal would eliminate women from voting. Shrewd move!

 

[spike.t]

Why else did they not only open the border but expend so many resources to get people moved in here from other countries. And with socialist tendencies.

It was (hell it still is!) an attempt ti take over the government permanently by the radical Left..
They set out to overthrowing our system and the Constitution. Why do you think Biden declared war on the Supreme Court.

Thank God we have won, for now. But I guarantee that what Harris said is true. They conceded the election but not the fight. They will never give up so we cannot either.

Same shit in UK....but its fkd and gone....taken over....RIP....

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Yes, we all can. However, let's say I don't have a car and barely making ends meet. First I'd have to go through the process of getting a copy of the birth certificate(at a cost), get TWO proofs of residency which is difficult for a lot of people, pay to get a State issued ID and spend 2+ ours at DMV to get that done. That is quite a hurdle for a segment of society.

And yes, I personally have that ability (might have to jump through some hoops for proof of residency) but I have the means unlike a lot of people. I still wouldn't want to do it due to the DMV delays. Heck, if one is working, they'd have to take time off from work.

Now, I am not advocating for No Voter ID, I am just pointing out the other side's argument.

BTW, if we had a National ID card like every other country in the World this whole argument would be moot. But the crowd that clamors for Voter ID is against the National ID, go figure.

My niece had a baby here two years ago. She went to the Swiss consulate to register her kid as she is also a naturalized Swiss citizen. He has his national id paperwork now, it is easy. And it would be easy for US citizens if we had a National ID. The old "privacy" argument no longer works as nothing is private now in the age of Internet and huge government databases. We have license plate readers in my neighborhood, and a database is kept almost forever. Almost every highway is a toll road, again with license plate readers. You have a cell phone? Your location data at cell towers is kept as you go through your day etc., etc.

If they can’t be bothered to go through the process to get an ID then perhaps they shouldn’t vote in the first place. That entire argument is dumb and dishonest it’s breathtaking. There’s only one reason the democrats don’t want voter ID and we all know it.

 

[Red Leg]

There are many military veterans that wrote a blank check to this country payable with their life if called for that make less than $100K a year. Skin in the game

With respect to the franchise (and a number of other issues), I have always thought Robert Heinlein was a really smart fellow.

 

[Red Leg]

One of the issues brought up on this thread and the farther regions of the right wing (and left wing) internet were the vote totals for this year's election. The claim was that fewer vote totals were "clear" evidence that Biden's totals in 2020 had been fabricated (or if you are a left wing nut job, Trump had cancelled out many Democrat votes through his "October Surprise"). Like much of the partisan nonsense originating with Infowars, Tucker Carlson, and their ilk (and there I was thinking Alex Jones finally had been sued into silence ), the "data" was at best suspect. It was particularly amusing this year when vote totals were still far from complete.

What is not being reported on those same sites or by those same people is what the AP provided this morning. ".... that the number of votes cast this year will be about 157.6 million, down about 700,000 from 2020."

I know many here would not deign to read the NY Times, but this article is worth look. Anyone care to take a bet whether either side offers a revision of any sort to their unquestioning listeners?

https://archive.is/uLuvx#selection-1737.67-1737.190

 

[Dirtdart]

With respect to the franchise (and a number of other issues), I have always thought Robert Heinlein was a really smart fellow.

The "moon" was my attempt at being civil.