Politics

[jeanes]

WAB wrote "it must start with a leader who will lead".
You are absolutely correct, sir. I have been seeing an increasing trend of supervisors who won't supervise and managers who won't manage. "Leaders" who seem to be in it for the pay and the perks and try to dodge their responsibilities. It has been going on for a good while and seems to be getting worse.

 

[BSO Dave]

The people you know who vote democrat do so not because they are capable of making independent decisions like you, but because they have been conditioned to do so or they "lack the understanding" to vote in their self-interests (and I am condescending). Moreover, that other half of the working class electorate are zombies in the thrall of elites, who you in turn accuse of not understanding anything about the working class

I don't understand any of this?? What exactly are you trying to say?

Secondly, I thought you were ignoring me?

With respect to not understanding the folks that worked for and with me, that is simply not so. There are elitists is industry and the military. As a rule, they fail in both cultures because they generate no loyalty within their organizations. Most of us, work very hard at understanding and being in touch with the teams that make up both military and corporate enterprises. I certainly did, and that is true of every successful peer or superior I have known and organization or unit in which I served, commanded or led.

As I said to my reply to WAB, if you feel that you are truly relatable to those who work for you great! If you have gained your personal success by working up from within yourself, all the better... That's the only exception that lends credibility to being one of "them"...

That being said, it's my personal experience that whatever amount of repour you feel you have with those who work for you is the exception rather than the rule at least in the realm of organized labor...

 

[Tanks]

I have spent 25 years on the labor side representing LE in labor-management negotiations.

I would not call government workers that have 100% job security "working-class" folks per se. I have several neighbors that are OC Sheriff deputies living in million-dollar homes in my neighborhood. On my street alone I have a recently retired fireman, a couple of teachers, and a husband/wife OC Sheriff captains. They all seem to be doing rather well, and they were all here before myself (12 years).

 

[Tanks]

...

That being said, it's my personal experience that whatever amount of repour you feel you have with those who work for you is the exception rather than the rule at least in the realm of organized labor...

You must really love Biden, after all he is the most "pro-union" President we had.

Also, only 10% or so of the labor force is union and for the most part it is an adversarial position with the management, especially at contract times. Look at the longshoreman union that is set to strike and cripple ports on the Eastern and Southern parts of the USA.

Big sticking point is automation, one of the reasons they had a strike at Long Beach port some years ago. Compromise was to still have the automation AND keep the guy with the clipboard on the payroll. The only thing unions are good for are their own interests, justifiably so but let's not pretend they are being anything else.

 

[BSO Dave]

I would not call government workers that have 100% job security "working-class" folks per se. I have several neighbors that are OC Sheriff deputies living in million-dollar homes in my neighborhood. On my street alone I have a recently retired fireman, a couple of teachers, and a husband/wife OC Sheriff captains. They all seem to be doing rather well, and they were all here before myself (12 years).

First let me say that I am SO glad you responded... I really enjoy replying to you...!

100% job security is complete and total bullshit as far as LE and Fire is concerned... I can't speak for the accountability standards of other unions, but we hold our members to the highest standards. Don't make the mistake of lumping us in with teachers or postal workers... That's not a slight to either profession, the slight is aimed at their union leadership which is usually deplorable...

Secondly, I will not apologize for any salary or benefits that LE and Fire have earned through their respective CBA's which are all unique to the given locations... I can an assure you that salary and benefits for LE and fire are reflective of their demographics... The vast majority of LE and Fire in this country are not making 6 figures living in million-dollar homes... Not even close, but for those who are, good for them!

My feeling in general is that you cannot pay police or firemen enough considering the risk they assume in doing their jobs... When you start running into burning buildings, exposing yourself to toxins and diseases, and getting shot at for no apparent reason, get back to me and tell me how much my job is worth?? You cannot possibly fathom the risks these men and women take on a daily basis, and trying to put a dollar figure on that is pretty ignorant...

Aren't you from California?? A million-dollar home is an outhouse in LA County these days...

 

[cash_tx]

Wow, haven't heard him mention "regime change" until now (unless I missed it):

Netanyahu: Iran regime change will come a ‘lot sooner than people think’

Israeli prime minister delivers not-so-subtle warning to leadership in Tehran.

www.politico.eu

 

[BSO Dave]

You must really love Biden, after all he is the most "pro-union" President we had.

Also, only 10% or so of the labor force is union and for the most part it is an adversarial position with the management, especially at contract times. Look at the longshoreman union that is set to strike and cripple ports on the Eastern and Southern parts of the USA.

Big sticking point is automation, one of the reasons they had a strike at Long Beach port some years ago. Compromise was to still have the automation AND keep the guy with the clipboard on the payroll. The only thing unions are good for are their own interests, justifiably so but let's not pretend they are being anything else.

LOL...! You truly are clueless! I really don't care if I get banned for it. You need to be knocked off of your arrogant, misinformed, high horse my friend!

Let me educate you a bit...

The irony in any POTUS' seeking union endorsements is that most folks in general are painfully unaware that a POTUS' influence on labor law has nearly nothing to do with their labor-relations on a local level... Brandon can get on TV and proclaim his support for organized labor until he turns blue. The truth is with a few exceptions, as POTUS he, or any other POTUS for that matter, has little to do with labor law and labor relations which is most often set at state and county levels... State Governors, state reps, mayors, city managers and council members are the ones who matter to labor unions when the vast majority of union dealings and negotiations are concerned...

The only reason Trump's support of unions matter is that he wants to enact legislation to protect police and fire in regard to health and safety.... He also wants to protect auto workers from tariffs, foreign export of their jobs, and these ridiculous job-killing green mandates as they pertain to fossil fuels and the auto industry. These are the few exceptions where a POTUS can actually have meaningful impact for labor unions. Brandon supports none of this!

Lastly, I don't speak to what other unions do... Our rights to bargain, and standards, & requirements for members are night and day compared to most labor unions in this country. All police and fire in the USA must agree to no strike, no lock out agreements because we would NEVER jeopardize the communities we serve over labor disputes... I only speak for represented LE and Fire for which I have extensive expertise, and you have none... I'm also no fan of unions in general... I have always viewed them as a necessary evil, and an absolute necessity especially in regard to high-risk professions where the "management" could care less about anything other than the bottom line... Self-interest cuts both ways my friend...

If you want to debate the pros and cons of unions as they pertain to LE and Fire, bring it... I promise you that you will be in WAY over our head...!

 

[Tanks]

100% job security is complete and total bullshit as far as LE and Fire is concerned... I can't speak for the accountability standards of other unions, but we hold our members to the highest standards. Don't make the mistake of lumping us in with teachers or postal workers... That's not a slight to either profession, the slight is aimed at their union leadership which is usually deplorable...

You misunderstood me. I meant 100% job security in the sense of continued employment by the government, layoffs as a rule do not exist, cuts when there are any, are done via suspending new hiring, at least in big cities and counties here out West.

My feeling in general is that you cannot pay police or firemen enough considering the risk they assume in doing their jobs... When you start running into burning buildings, exposing yourself to toxins and diseases, and getting shot at for no apparent reason, get back to me and tell me how much my job is worth?? You cannot possibly fathom the risks these men and women take on a daily basis, and trying to put a dollar figure on that is pretty ignorant...

I agree with you 100%. Heck, I saw that when I had to evacuate my house where fire started within 4,000 feet of it (total 33K or so acres burned), there were over 2,100 fire fighters involved. Several clearing brush and dead trees over the hill East of my house (front yard is a National Forest). I am grateful.

North end of my street, hills burned up. Luckily for us the wind was going East.

I have also worked with OC Sheriff for several months some years past implementing the security systems of their new jail pods. We would show up at 8PM at the jail once the inmates were locked down, switch system from old to new, test and switch back at 4AM. Got to talk to them quite a bit during those months. I actually ended up getting approved for a CCW because of those connections (pre-lawsuits where only a few hundred people had CCWs in the county).

 

[Saul]

Lastly, I don't speak to what other unions do... Our rights to bargain, and standards, & requirements for members are night and day compared to most labor unions in this country. All police and fire in the USA must agree to no strike, no lock out agreements because we would NEVER jeopardize the communities we serve over labor disputes... I only speak for represented LE and Fire for which I have extensive expertise, and you have none... I'm also no fan of unions in general... I have always viewed them as a necessary evil, and an absolute necessity especially in regard to high-risk professions where the "management" could care less about anything other than the bottom line...

I generally tend to agree with most of this. It seems the groups who need union representation most (healthcare) rarely have it, while teachers unions and the like run roughshod over cities.

 

[VertigoBE]

It’s a sad day when people start killing each other over political disagreements. We need a leader who will unite our country in the pursuit of common goals. Ronald Reagan comes to mind if anyone knows where to find a leader from that mold.

Well, there is this @Red Leg fellow. Has a bit of that Reaganesque rugged cowboy going for him

 

[ActionBob]

One thing a lot of people are unaware of is that while Congress makes/changes the laws the Executive branch specifically each individual department writes up the rules on implementing those laws. Hence, why we end up with regulations that are contrary to the original intent of the law or extra burden on implementation. EPA is a great example of that in stretching the original intent of the law in many of their regulations.

Exactly! And..

And you will be taken to court and convicted for breaking the regulation - not a law.

I've experienced this first hand.

And in our case the damned engineer was exempt. Doing a major project and the rule was you have to give 3 days notice (in this case MPCA) before starting construction. Waiting for the engineer to get plans and specs turned in and then construction notice. So the engineer tells me he will handle it. In fact I had emails with time and date stamps. He told the contractor to start. Turns out he had not notified the MPCA. So I get a $17,000 fine. When I went in to discuss this and showed my emails and explained that they should fine the engineer... They commented that they regulate producers, not engineers.

I've had more damned issues relating to engineers doing their jobs than any other workers or contractors I've had to deal with. They do seem to live and operate in an alternate Universe from the rest of us.

But yes, the administrative branch and all its bureaucrats are the major source of pain when it comes to all the rules and regulations. Thanks largely to Trump, the Supreme Court has made it possible to effect some changes for the better.

One more example of local government over reach. I appealed a local County Board decision many years ago that went to our State Supreme Court. I won. The ruling was really simple. It requires a local unit of government to follow their own rules! In other words when the make a rule or regulation and a citizen complies with every bit of it... they must issue the requested permit.

And after that, my request passed by 3-2. So two still voted against after being ordered by their Supreme Court! One of the two, let's call him Tom, came out to the site for a tour. He was all crocodile smiles and complimentary of the project. When I met him there i took his hand to shake it. Pulled him in close and said "Tom i at least admire the balls you have to defy the State Supreme Court in your vote on this." The look on his face, I thought he was going to piss his pants! Half the idiots in charge have no idea what they are doing! Tom had no comprehension of his own rules nor procedures.

It is indeed way out of control. We need to get back to the non military part of the government being at least into the single digit percentages of the economy. Military, law enforcement, infrastructure, maybe basic social security but that could be privatized also.

 

[BSO Dave]

You misunderstood me. I meant 100% job security in the sense of continued employment by the government, layoffs as a rule do not exist, cuts when there are any, are done via suspending new hiring.

If I did, I apologize...

Firings, layoffs, forced furloughs, working under the national minimum staffing standards, and hiring freezes are an absolute reality in LE and Fire. In general, LE gets no support form their own management nor the municipalities they work for... The unions are their ONLY protection... Fire is not much better... I have been battling these things for my entire career.... As I said, we are vastly different than most unions...

Again, I hate to pick on teachers and postal workers, but they are the two most glaring examples of what you are referring to in regard to job security and low accountability standards... Frankly, they give unions in general a bad name... My wife was a non-represented postal manager for almost 10 years. She actually quit because she was so frustrated with dealing with represented workers who refused to work, and accused her of racism when she attempted to hold them accountable... Their CBA's allow them ridiculous leniencies that should never be tolerated by management, but they get away with murder... She believes that the post office could do a better job with half of the staff if they were allowed to manage properly without these ridiculous restrictions... From the stories I would hear, it's amazing we get any mail at all...

(Disclaimer)! I love my mail lady, and she works very hard... I know not ALL postal workers are like this...

 

[BSO Dave]

We need to get back to the non military part of the government being at least into the single digit percentages of the economy. Military, law enforcement, infrastructure, maybe basic social security but that could be privatized also.

Obviously, I do not support privatization for LE or Fire protection services, but my reasons might surprise some of you...

In theory, privatization of these services sound like they would solve a lot of the problems... This has actually been tried in Florida to some extend in different communities and has proven not to be feasible or affordable for many reasons... Wackenhut, MediVan, and American Ambulance are a few national private companies that have tried and failed mostly due to the challenge of the logistics of serving one city or municipality that does not have the same training and/or qualification standards as the other... Many of these services require mutual aid and infrastructure that would be very costly to implement and still deliver the same standard of service.

The main problem with regard to police and fire services is that each community is unique in both demographics, and risk... These services are never a "one size fits all" scenario. Most cities and counties actually want these services to mirror both their demographics and specific needs which outside private services cannot provide. Also, many communities especially in rural areas cannot afford private services especially for Fire and EMS protection. Even their police protection is bare minimum, and to this day function as a volunteer basis which I also oppose for safety reasons...

The only way privatization of these services would work is if the entire city or state subscribed to one service... And, even then, that city or state would be subject to a monopoly of said services...

I always used to joke with the firemen that they should go back to the old days when fire service was privatized, and the different departments would all race to the fire and brawls between the competing departments would break out over who gets the fire while the building burns to the ground... If anybody has ever seen the movie Gangs of New York, you know what I am talking about...

 

[deewayne2003]

I would not call government workers that have 100% job security "working-class" folks per se. I have several neighbors that are OC Sheriff deputies living in million-dollar homes in my neighborhood. On my street alone I have a recently retired fireman, a couple of teachers, and a husband/wife OC Sheriff captains. They all seem to be doing rather well, and they were all here before myself (12 years).

Agreed! Having the upper echelon of public servants living in your neighborhood; they've had good salaries and if they've been there 12+ years they probably bought in before housing prices went crazy.

Most California expats I've spoken with in Texas agree that the upper echelon of public employees in California are well paid because newly hired public employee turnover is insanely high in California so they have to incentivize the elder statesmen of the departments to stay on and thus give them the golden handcuffs just to keep some experience around.

I didn't think much of this until I was at a Texas Rangers baseball game in Arlington Texas this summer and ended up talking to the guys sitting next to me, all four of them were firemen...

From ORANGE COUNTY California and they all lived in DFW and commuted to California for work.

They explained that the cost of living, long commutes and shift scheduling made it all worth it and were just waiting to get their minimum pension from California and then either stay in Texas or move to Costa Rica.

I thought they were full of it until one of them said....."When in doubt, google it out!"

Sure enough....

Meet the California firefighter ‘super commuters’ traveling 2,000 miles for work

As cost of living continues to rise in the Golden state, some first responders have moved to Oregon, Arizona, Texas, Alabama, Florida – even Alaska

www.theguardian.com

I asked about loosing time and money on the flights back and forth and their answers were brutally honest.......

"Shit man, consider all the endless traffic and sky high gas prices in Cali.... I actually get more of my life back by air commuting than living in Cali!"

Definitely an eye opener.

 

[rookhawk]

A good friend of mine's son-in-law is an Orange County fireman. Like all the others, he enjoy's his incredible wages and benefits as much as he enjoy's living in Idaho on a very high white collar salary in a low-cost red State.

Agreed! Having the upper echelon of public servants living in your neighborhood; they've had good salaries and if they've been there 12+ years they probably bought in before housing prices went crazy.

Most California expats I've spoken with in Texas agree that the upper echelon of public employees in California are well paid because newly hired public employee turnover is insanely high in California so they have to incentivize the elder statesmen of the departments to stay on and thus give them the golden handcuffs just to keep some experience around.

I didn't think much of this until I was at a Texas Rangers baseball game in Arlington Texas this summer and ended up talking to the guys sitting next to me, all four of them were firemen...

From ORANGE COUNTY California and they all lived in DFW and commuted to California for work.

They explained that the cost of living, long commutes and shift scheduling made it all worth it and were just waiting to get their minimum pension from California and then either stay in Texas or move to Costa Rica.

I thought they were full of it until one of them said....."When in doubt, google it out!"

Sure enough....

Meet the California firefighter ‘super commuters’ traveling 2,000 miles for work

As cost of living continues to rise in the Golden state, some first responders have moved to Oregon, Arizona, Texas, Alabama, Florida – even Alaska

www.theguardian.com

I asked about loosing time and money on the flights back and forth and their answers were brutally honest.......

"Shit man, consider all the endless traffic and sky high gas prices in Cali.... I actually get more of my life back by air commuting than living in Cali!"

Definitely an eye opener.

 

[BSO Dave]

Agreed! Having the upper echelon of public servants living in your neighborhood; they've had good salaries and if they've been there 12+ years they probably bought in before housing prices went crazy.

Most California expats I've spoken with in Texas agree that the upper echelon of public employees in California are well paid because newly hired public employee turnover is insanely high in California so they have to incentivize the elder statesmen of the departments to stay on and thus give them the golden handcuffs just to keep some experience around.

I didn't think much of this until I was at a Texas Rangers baseball game in Arlington Texas this summer and ended up talking to the guys sitting next to me, all four of them were firemen...

From ORANGE COUNTY California and they all lived in DFW and commuted to California for work.

They explained that the cost of living, long commutes and shift scheduling made it all worth it and were just waiting to get their minimum pension from California and then either stay in Texas or move to Costa Rica.

I thought they were full of it until one of them said....."When in doubt, google it out!"

Sure enough....

Meet the California firefighter ‘super commuters’ traveling 2,000 miles for work

As cost of living continues to rise in the Golden state, some first responders have moved to Oregon, Arizona, Texas, Alabama, Florida – even Alaska

www.theguardian.com

I asked about loosing time and money on the flights back and forth and their answers were brutally honest.......

"Shit man, consider all the endless traffic and sky high gas prices in Cali.... I actually get more of my life back by air commuting than living in Cali!"

Definitely an eye opener.

Like I said, demographics play a major role in CBA's among the different departments.... California in general is without a doubt the highest paying state...

That being said, I can tell you about a thousand other contracts I helped negotiate where the fire and police were making under $40K as of last year... Some well-under $40K in smaller communities... It's all relative, but it doesn't mitigate the risk... Would you be a cop anywhere in the USA today for $40K...? $60K? $100K?

 

[WAB]

I respect and commend your personal experience. However, yours is not typical and not representative of what most working-class folks deal with in terms of personal relatability with upper-level corporate executives whether it be on the labor or management side...

I'm not sure if you are also making the inference that all union executives are relatable and represent the best interest of the worker, but I can assure you that, by and large, they do not...

With the exception of the teachers' unions, most labor unions are evenly split between democrat, republican and independent. With specific regard to represented LE and fire, the vast majority of members lean conservative and traditionally vote against the urge from union leadership to vote democrat... Even the Teamsters have publicly revealed that 60% of their membership will vote for Trump even though the union itself will not officially endorse either candidate... That is not leadership in the best interest of the workers... Sad...



If you took my assertions as arrogant, you haven't taken my point... If you have a different personal experience, that's great, but it's not typical based on my experiences in working with hundreds of labor unions and their executive counterparts across the country... I have spent 25 years on the labor side representing LE in labor-management negotiations. I have extensive experience dealing with every type of executive and appointed bureaucrat serving in a leadership role on the management side on both local and national levels. I have negotiated with HR directors, City Managers, CFO's and their Attorneys...The one thing all these execs have in common is that they all think that they are the smartest person in the room... The other thing they all have in common is that in their smug arrogance, it never occurs to them is that they all can't be right... In general, they regard union representatives on a local level as uneducated dummies who are not on the same intellectual level with them... Unbeknownst to many of them, 99% of the time they are terribly mistaken. Furthermore, their main interest in the bottom line. Their only objective is how to get the job done for the least amount possible regardless of quality, safety, or the well-being of the workers...

I'm not suggesting that there are not great bosses in every aspect of labor and industry who generally care about their employees. But, unless they have come up from the working class themselves like you for example, they cannot claim true relatability to the workers no matter how much they would like to think so...

Thoughtful comments, thank you. Unfortunately, as you point out, many leaders are leaders in title only. I for one refused to be on a separate team than the men and women who worked for me. When it came time for contract negotiation there were no surprises because we were in constant communication.

This discussion began due to comments made to/about a retired army officer. I have to say that ex army officers I have hired were some of the best leaders I have encountered. I seriously doubt that this is an accident and I suspect that the individual in question is a leader of the first order

 

[Tanks]

In my view one cannot relate to the "working man" unless one has hot-bunked on an offshore oil rig.

Everyone else is an "out-of-touch elite."

 

[ActionBob]

I find it rather difficult to discern anti-elitism from anti-intellectualism.

I need clarification on this.

I didn't even graduate high school... So doubt that i would be classified as an intellectual. So please the concept of people voting based on the endorsement of Britney Spears who i would consider an elitist..... How again is she also an Intellectual?

 

[BSO Dave]

This discussion began due to comments made to/about a retired army officer. I have to say that ex army officers I have hired were some of the best leaders I have encountered. I seriously doubt that this is an accident and I suspect that the individual in question is a leader of the first order

I have no doubt you are most likely right in your supposition... I don't believe that I have ever questioned anyone's integrity here even though I may vehemently disagree with them?

Please understand that I don't automatically assume someone who happens to be wealthy, a CEO or whatever other lofty position one can attain, is out of touch with the people they oversee... I don't know too many folks here personally, so I can only go by what they post when I make my assertions... I was merely conveying my personal experiences with these types of bosses which was that this is the rule rather than the exception in my field... My assertions were specifically made about certain individuals being out of touch and unrelatable to the guys with dirt on their hands... As of yet, I honestly haven't heard anything to think otherwise... If I am indeed wrong, I'll be the first to admit it...

On a side note, I've worked for many bosses in my lifetime, and I have encountered very few "leaders" among them...