Politics

[Brent in Az]

 

[BSO Dave]

The Separation

A proposal for a renewed America.

americanmind.org

A somewhat long, but very thought provoking read.

An interesting read indeed. Although I agree with most of the author's assessment on how we got here in the first place, I cannot realistically conceive of any kind of mutually acceptable separation that could be achieved in a non-violent manner. Realignment of power of that magnitude has NEVER occurred or been capitulated without either genocide or armed conflict if not all-out war.

Finally, whichever side "won" such a confrontation would have to institute a totalitarian form of government. Such a war would be based upon intolerance for the opponents' ideas - doctrine if you will. God and Capitalism vs Socialism and Secularism? "Winning", inevitably, would entail eradicating one set of those ideas. That is by definition the very essence of totalitarianism.

@Red Leg

For the sake of discussion, how would that be any different than the Union's defeat of the Confederacy? Did the United States become a totalitarian government in defeating the Confederate doctrine?

I pointed out a while back a similar point that the author also made which was that the biggest difference between the two political parties (pre-Obama era) was that both sides shared the same fundamental values that ALL American generally embraced. The main difference of ideology was the methods by which we go about achieving those common goals through the same shared values. Now, as the author rightly points out, we have 2 completely sets of ideologies one of which wants to burn down the current system and replace it. A strong argument could be made for classifying that as treason, and since when is it a totalitarianism to defend against an enemy of the state just as the Union regarded the Confederacy as a whole? I realize that the Confederacy was seeking succession and creation of a new nation as apposed to overthrow of the Union, but the principle is the same is it not?

 

[jeanes]

One thing that isn't mentioned in all the talk about civil war is UN intervention. I suspect our enemies might just push for that.

 

[steve white]

Leftists always operate on "other people's money"...I say deny it. Deny it to the leftist dominated universities, deny it to the gigantic governmental experimenters. You cannot mix communism and the freedom we have enjoyed. Let them fail without our props. If we don't take back education and news sources, then yes, we will see a brainwashed generation take the reins, AND SINK IN FAILURE. Daniel Webster said, "miracles do not cluster." What he meant is that our government is a miracle, very rare in its essence as miracles are by definition, and almost impossible to replicate at will. Crush the bolsheviks, or watch us go on the garbage heap of history--and more rapidly than one can imagine if we ever lose our reserve currency status...that will be the nail in the coffin. Snowflakes are not ready for prime time.

 

[steve white]

It would be a weird scenario where one would pray for Biden to keep it together because Kamala is such a nightmare in comparison.

 

[Zambezi]

Finally, whichever side "won" such a confrontation would have to institute a totalitarian form of government. Such a war would be based upon intolerance for the opponents' ideas - doctrine if you will. God and Capitalism vs Socialism and Secularism? "Winning", inevitably, would entail eradicating one set of those ideas. That is by definition the very essence of totalitarianism.

The problem with that is the war has begun and if not met with equal force it will be lost. Their weapons are; mainstream media, education systems, social media, bureaucracy, public opinion and cancel culture and "heart" thinking not "head" thinking (READ: PROPAGANDA). We as conservatives don't deal in this type of war, or we don't do well at this type of war. And believe me when I say this, when they win it WILL be a totalitarian system and the eradication of our ideas and ideals... and if necessary us physically as well. So sorry to say, it will come to this so we might as well fight back and win the war and install our ideals or we will be living under theirs.

You will never change the hearts and minds of fanatics (and that's what the left is). You have to win the war or live under their oppression.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

There have always been opposites, always will be. They manage to co-exist because of balance and equilibrium. Flare ups between the extremes are inevitable, but manageable. The single biggest threat to the balance in the USA is the media giants having taken one side and badly tipping the balance. Control that and it should all settle down. It also takes a leader to rise above it all and be more impartial and unifying. I think there are many cool and smart heads in both Congress and the Senate and now is the time for them to reach out to each other and save America, literally it would seem judging bu the desperate tone that is floating around. War isn't the answer, compromise is.

 

[Red Leg]

The problem with that is the war has begun and if not met with equal force it will be lost. Their weapons are; mainstream media, education systems, social media, bureaucracy, public opinion and cancel culture and "heart" thinking not "head" thinking (READ: PROPAGANDA). We as conservatives don't deal in this type of war, or we don't do well at this type of war. And believe me when I say this, when they win it WILL be a totalitarian system and the eradication of our ideas and ideals... and if necessary us physically as well. So sorry to say, it will come to this so we might as well fight back and win the war and install our ideals or we will be living under theirs.

You will never change the hearts and minds of fanatics (and that's what the left is). You have to win the war or live under their oppression.

An interesting read indeed. Although I agree with most of the author's assessment on how we got here in the first place, I cannot realistically conceive of any kind of mutually acceptable separation that could be achieved in a non-violent manner. Realignment of power of that magnitude has NEVER occurred or been capitulated without either genocide or armed conflict if not all-out war.



@Red Leg

For the sake of discussion, how would that be any different than the Union's defeat of the Confederacy? Did the United States become a totalitarian government in defeating the Confederate doctrine?

I pointed out a while back a similar point that the author also made which was that the biggest difference between the two political parties (pre-Obama era) was that both sides shared the same fundamental values that ALL American generally embraced. The main difference of ideology was the methods by which we go about achieving those common goals through the same shared values. Now, as the author rightly points out, we have 2 completely sets of ideologies one of which wants to burn down the current system and replace it. A strong argument could be made for classifying that as treason, and since when is it a totalitarianism to defend against an enemy of the state just as the Union regarded the Confederacy as a whole? I realize that the Confederacy was seeking succession and creation of a new nation as apposed to overthrow of the Union, but the principle is the same is it not?

A couple of thoughts.

Both the conduct and, particularly, the aftermath of a modern civil war would be totally different than what the South endured following the War Between the States. Indeed, that totalitarian aftermath would be totally different than anything we have ever seen in this country. Fortunately, we have been given a bit of preview from the ruins of Russia, Spain, China, et al of the typical end to true Civil Wars.

The South did indeed lose - unconditionally. What is surprising is how little actually changed. Despite Reconstruction, war induced impoverishment, and the end of slavery, the South itself changed very little. In large measure this was because the Southern States returned to their former role as governed by the constitution. Within a very few years the Democrat Party was again dominant in the South and would remain so for a hundred years. Confederate leaders were soon members of Congress or governors. Both Fitzhugh Lee and Joseph Wheeler were leading American troops in the Spanish American War. In 1874, James Longstreet led the troops that put down the White League revolt in New Orleans at the "Battle" of Liberty Place. The only institution that was really ended was slavery, and far too many of those freed slaves became sharecroppers with little more freedom than they had prior to the 1860. No one was lined up in front of firing squads or sent to gulags for liquidation or reeducation. The South abided.

This "war" everyone seems so eager in which to take up arms would be totally different. Let's take Florida that was red state this time around. Nevertheless, the division between "blue" and "red" is razor thin. It is your neighbor, not some Yankee north of the Mason Dixon line who is your "enemy." Perhaps you both can identify one, but I am unaware of any armed ANTIF encampments in either Florida or wherever you call home Zambezi. So where do you take your war?

Dave, you have a University of Miami avatar. Perhaps we and some of your friends should load up in the truck head over to the university and start shooting professors? I thought not. Perhaps the Miami Herald would be a better target. Why not let's smash their presses and shoot the opinion writers who don't think or write "correctly." The truth is that our neighbors who voted for Biden (and a large number of conservatives who voted for Trump) would see such violence for what it is - little more than terrorism.

And let's say we somehow "won" this war. What then? Do we expunge political debate from our society? Maybe we follow radical Islam's lead and force everyone to attend an approved christian church and pray daily? Should we burn the books that offend us? Initiate a bounty system where we reward those who report neighbors on family members caught reading about organizing labor or universal healthcare models?

Look, we do indeed need to "fight" for our culture and for the future of our grandchildren. But that fight needs to be conducted on the political battlefield. This year republican Senate and House of Representative candidates significantly outperformed the top of the ticket. Now, that could be because the election was only stolen from Trump, though I see less and less actual evidence each day that it was. But it could also be that a majority of Americans really are uncomfortable with the nuttier end of the Democrat alliance however they feel about Trump.

Just like military battlefields, we win on the political one with organization and better ideas. Where we should form cadre's is to monitor elections; fight changes to election laws that benefit the opposition; recruit able candidates who truly reflect our values; and focus our energy on those values, vision, and issues - not someone's personality.

The next major fight is Georgia. In typical conservative fashion we have decided that anyone who disagrees with us 20% is an enemy. In classic circular firing squad tradition, Lin Wood is now telling republicans not to vote in Georgia during the runoff. The comments sections of Breitbart, Red State, etc are cheering him on.

He and Powell evidently are finding rough sledding selling the court on the notion an international cabal electronically stole Georgia, so they might as well make headlines throwing the election. Schumer must be staring stunned at the TV when he isn't howling with laughter.

We better get our collective act together. We better get politically involved and we better do it before January 5th. We had better take the fight to our opponents on a battlefield that matters. Lose both those senate seats and the democrat party will have the power to do whatever they want for the next two years.

 

[Zambezi]

I think you may have misinterpreted my post, or I didn't convey it clearly. I'm not talking about taking up arms, that would lead to a world not a single person would want to live in. I was talking about a war where we have to fight using the exact same weapons they use. The hearts and minds things is being used against us in a way that we cannot fight effectively against. We had better get our "war machine" in gear or we will lose. Period.

If every sensible kid goes off to school on day one and is brainwashed by liberal teachers and peers then comes home and watches cartoons where Elmer Fudd no longer carries his trusty pop gun, where decent values and morals are derided and erased, then the generation is lost. The next generation will bring up a left of centre brood and it will continue to move left.

The war will not be won with bullets BUT there may be a Orwellian future where bullets are only owned by the overseers and your freedom, your vote and your faith is only an illusion that is a pale shadow of what you have now.

Like I may have said before the thin end of the wedge starts with a single act and before you know it it has become accepted norm or mainstream. If these past 4 years have shown us anything, it is the fact that the left will always fight dirty, no outrage is too small for them to commit. We have always been more tolerant and they are using that against us. We have to fight hard to defeat this type of enemy without sacrificing our moral high ground... it's like fighting with one hand tied behind our back while the opponent is allowed to kick below the belt.

 

[Red Leg]

I think you may have misinterpreted my post, or I didn't convey it clearly. I'm not talking about taking up arms, that would lead to a world not a single person would want to live in. I was talking about a war where we have to fight using the exact same weapons they use. The hearts and minds things is being used against us in a way that we cannot fight effectively against. We had better get our "war machine" in gear or we will lose. Period.

If every sensible kid goes off to school on day one and is brainwashed by liberal teachers and peers then comes home and watches cartoons where Elmer Fudd no longer carries his trusty pop gun, where decent values and morals are derided and erased, then the generation is lost. The next generation will bring up a left of centre brood and it will continue to move left.

The war will not be won with bullets BUT there may be a Orwellian future where bullets are only owned by the overseers and your freedom, your vote and your faith is only an illusion that is a pale shadow of what you have now.

Like I may have said before the thin end of the wedge starts with a single act and before you know it it has become accepted norm or mainstream. If these past 4 years have shown us anything, it is the fact that the left will always fight dirty, no outrage is too small for them to commit. We have always been more tolerant and they are using that against us. We have to fight hard to defeat this type of enemy without sacrificing our moral high ground... it's like fighting with one hand tied behind our back while the opponent is allowed to kick below the belt.

My sincerest apologies. I totally misread your post, and completely agree with every sentiment upon which you have elaborated.

 

[K-man]

View attachment 377972

Are those some AH members with Coronavirus beards?? I think i recognize some of them!!!

 

[35bore]

A couple of thoughts.

Both the conduct and, particularly, the aftermath of a modern civil war would be totally different than what the South endured following the War Between the States. Indeed, that totalitarian aftermath would be totally different than anything we have ever seen in this country. Fortunately, we have been given a bit of preview from the ruins of Russia, Spain, China, et al of the typical end to true Civil Wars.

The South did indeed lose - unconditionally. What is surprising is how little actually changed. Despite Reconstruction, war induced impoverishment, and the end of slavery, the South itself changed very little. In large measure this was because the Southern States returned to their former role as governed by the constitution. Within a very few years the Democrat Party was again dominant in the South and would remain so for a hundred years. Confederate leaders were soon members of Congress or governors. Both Fitzhugh Lee and Joseph Wheeler were leading American troops in the Spanish American War. In 1874, James Longstreet led the troops that put down the White League revolt in New Orleans at the "Battle" of Liberty Place. The only institution that was really ended was slavery, and far too many of those freed slaves became sharecroppers with little more freedom than they had prior to the 1860. No one was lined up in front of firing squads or sent to gulags for liquidation or reeducation. The South abided.

This "war" everyone seems so eager in which to take up arms would be totally different. Let's take Florida that was red state this time around. Nevertheless, the division between "blue" and "red" is razor thin. It is your neighbor, not some Yankee north of the Mason Dixon line who is your "enemy." Perhaps you both can identify one, but I am unaware of any armed ANTIF encampments in either Florida or wherever you call home Zambezi. So where do you take your war?

Dave, you have a University of Miami avatar. Perhaps we and some of your friends should load up in the truck head over to the university and start shooting professors? I thought not. Perhaps the Miami Herald would be a better target. Why not let's smash their presses and shoot the opinion writers who don't think or write "correctly." The truth is that our neighbors who voted for Biden (and a large number of conservatives who voted for Trump) would see such violence for what it is - little more than terrorism.

And let's say we somehow "won" this war. What then? Do we expunge political debate from our society? Maybe we follow radical Islam's lead and force everyone to attend an approved christian church and pray daily? Should we burn the books that offend us? Initiate a bounty system where we reward those who report neighbors on family members caught reading about organizing labor or universal healthcare models?

Look, we do indeed need to "fight" for our culture and for the future of our grandchildren. But that fight needs to be conducted on the political battlefield. This year republican Senate and House of Representative candidates significantly outperformed the top of the ticket. Now, that could be because the election was only stolen from Trump, though I see less and less actual evidence each day that it was. But it could also be that a majority of Americans really are uncomfortable with the nuttier end of the Democrat alliance however they feel about Trump.

Just like military battlefields, we win on the political one with organization and better ideas. Where we should form cadre's is to monitor elections; fight changes to election laws that benefit the opposition; recruit able candidates who truly reflect our values; and focus our energy on those values, vision, and issues - not someone's personality.

The next major fight is Georgia. In typical conservative fashion we have decided that anyone who disagrees with us 20% is an enemy. In classic circular firing squad tradition, Lin Wood is now telling republicans not to vote in Georgia during the runoff. The comments sections of Breitbart, Red State, etc are cheering him on.

He and Powell evidently are finding rough sledding selling the court on the notion an international cabal electronically stole Georgia, so they might as well make headlines throwing the election. Schumer must be staring stunned at the TV when he isn't howling with laughter.

We better get our collective act together. We better get politically involved and we better do it before January 5th. We had better take the fight to our opponents on a battlefield that matters. Lose both those senate seats and the democrat party will have the power to do whatever they want for the next two years.

Red Leg, unbeknownst to you, you have become somewhat the voice of reason over the course of this thread. However, if you don't think that ANTIFA has taken up arms, do a simple Google search. John Brown gun club or simply look up ANTIFA firearms training. As far as the question of the location of "the enemy" brother, they would be all around us. So my question is this, to those of you that don't know/deny that we are being set up for attack, what if this "war" is brought to you? I disagree whole heartedly with you when you say the war everyone is wanting. Been there, done that, it's the last thing anyone should have to see in their country. For me I don't want to see it here in the US. HOWEVER, if its forced upon me because these political figures we have put so much faith into can't do their friggin job, then I guess bring it. Hopefully they will do their job.

 

[mdwest]

ANTIFA and other radical groups like NFAC have indeed taken up arms.. .

What they largely lack however is any measure of training, competency, or capability...

Yes, they are indeed attending weekend classes, etc..

But, as a rule those are either internally taught by incompetent and inexperienced "instructors", or are on the lower end of the training scale...

they are plagued with negligent discharges.. and have even managed to shoot their own people on at least 2 occasions that I am personally aware of (NFAC managed to shoot one of their own people as recently as about a month ago in Louisiana at one of their "training" events)..

These guys love to say they have "former military" personnel within their ranks that are providing them training...

The founder/leader of NFAC was in fact a member of the Virginia National Guard... he served for 7 years.. and left as a PRIVATE.. what does that tell you?


Im not discounting the threat of an armed group like ANTIFA... but.. the reality is they have a LONG way to go before they are even remotely as capable as some of the red neck ultra right militia groups.. who themselves are notoriously incompetent as well...

If a hundred of them showed up at the house of your typical 1 tour USMC veteran.. ultimately the Marine would lose the fight... but it wouldnt be before he took a huge number of them to the grave with him..

Owning a gun is different than knowing how to use a gun.. and knowing how to use a gun is very different than understanding how to fight with one.. or having the experience and knowledge of how to win the fight..

 

[BSO Dave]

This "war" everyone seems so eager in which to take up arms would be totally different. Let's take Florida that was red state this time around. Nevertheless, the division between "blue" and "red" is razor thin. It is your neighbor, not some Yankee north of the Mason Dixon line who is your "enemy." Perhaps you both can identify one, but I am unaware of any armed ANTIF encampments in either Florida or wherever you call home Zambezi. So where do you take your war?

I have already alluded to the fact that any conflict would not be organized armies facing off across battlefields. The future violence and conflict that I fear is inevitable will be a "war" of small, sporadic conflicts at the community level. For the time being, these anarchists and the common criminals that have become their opportunistic fellow travelers, have been isolated to the liberal-controlled cities and communities that have turned a blind eye to the lawlessness. We have seen escalation of the violence and destruction only because we have political leaders that have either condoned or actually encouraged the behavior as legitimate responses to perceived social injustice. That ideology is madness. Anyone wiling to overlook the insanity of that rationalization doesn't deserve the freedoms bestowed upon them by the Constitution. Just the fact that we have elected political officials in this country who ascribe to this is ideology is an alarm bell of epic proportions that should scare the shit out of all of us, but I digress..

There has already been numerous instances where communities have banned together to show a united front against these "protesters" who have attempted to take their act on the road. We've already seen the suburban couple in their front yard with an AR-15. We've already seen the kid arrested and charged with murder for shooting armed mob members who descended upon him. What do you suppose will happen when these anarchists and criminals are emboldened to the point where they feel comfortable taking their violence outside of these liberally dominated strongholds as both Antifa and BLM have repeatedly threatened?

It's been quiet for the most part with the coronavirus and the election controversy providing ample distraction, but what will happen the next time a police officer uses force to subdue a suspect? It doesn't even have to be a white officer and a black suspect anymore. As a society, we have gone way past requiring such minor details such as investigation of the facts being necessary before rioting ensues. Are days, weeks, and months of violence, destruction, and occupations the new normal every time the mob perceives injustice...? How long do you think the average law-abiding, hard working American is going to peacefully tolerate this bullshit when it is their own communities being set aflame? How will you react when the next protesting mob blocks the highway on your way into work? How will you react when they take bats to your windshield and fenders? What will you do when they attempt to pull you from your vehicle?

My issue with your theoretical analysis of "what if" is that it is really not a "what if" scenario. We have already seen a one-sided preview of what actually happens in communities all across the nation. The only "what if" is to what extent the violence will escalate when the dems have all the power.

Dave, you have a University of Miami avatar. Perhaps we and some of your friends should load up in the truck head over to the university and start shooting professors? I thought not. Perhaps the Miami Herald would be a better target. Why not let's smash their presses and shoot the opinion writers who don't think or write "correctly." The truth is that our neighbors who voted for Biden (and a large number of conservatives who voted for Trump) would see such violence for what it is - little more than terrorism.

I assume you are being hyperbolic to make your point, and realize that I do not actually believe that we should be proactive against our political enemies to the extent that we initiate Gestapo-like raids and assassinations? At this point, I am only condoning self-defense, but that could change...

Ironically, I would point out to that suppression of free and independent thought is exactly what the left is doing at the highest level through their complete and total control of the media, big tech, and the universities. So how do you address the propaganda? Obviously none of these outlets are being held legally accountable for what they broadcast, print, or profess so how do you win the propaganda war if not with counter-propaganda thus increasing the divisions?

And let's say we somehow "won" this war. What then? Do we expunge political debate from our society? Maybe we follow radical Islam's lead and force everyone to attend an approved christian church and pray daily? Should we burn the books that offend us? Initiate a bounty system where we reward those who report neighbors on family members caught reading about organizing labor or universal healthcare models?

The suppression of freedoms and eradication of opposing points of view that you suggest above is exactly what the left is already actively doing. When did conservatives start encouraging fellow conservatives to publically confront, shout down, and assault if necessary those with opposing political or social views? When did conservatives begin to use their media outlets to suppress, or delete opposing thoughts? Where have violent groups of conservatives rioted, looted, and burned communities in "protest?" When have conservatives demanded the need for re-education of those who oppose their narratives? The war that was started by the left is not only a political war, it's a war on our culture which makes it personal for the vast majority of Americans who are tired of being told they are racists, rednecks, deplorables etc., for not embracing progressive ideologies and fake narratives that support them. I agree that is is not as simple as red and blue. It's capitalism versus socialism. It's also God versus secularism. It's pro-life versus pro-murder. It's personal freedoms at every level versus government control.

"Winning" would ensure the restoration of those very freedoms. I understand that your proposed solution is to win politically, and restore conservatism thought the legislative process. Okay, fine, but what if we continue to lose politically? When our borders become open and 20 million illegals become citizens overnight, and the political landscape in America is changed forever, what then? Do you then suggest that we concede our freedoms, and accept the new normal? I personally don't think I'm ready, willing, or able to capitulate that easily.

 

[spike.t]

What is the red flag thing?..

Except the red flag and gun safe the rest of those have zero chances passing and being signed.

 

[Ray B]

What is the red flag thing?..

It's the "If you are perceived as a threat then law enforcement can take your guns.knives baseball bats etc away until you prove that you're safe.

 

[wesheltonj]

What is the red flag thing?..

It it when someone reports you as a threat to yourself or others and the police come take your guns without any due process. And good luck getting them back.

Good intentions gone bad. Just another way to disarm the population.

And speaking of disarming. Just wait till Biden, has the ATF, reclassify “modern sporting arms” and 10+ magazines as class 3 items. And you start getting gun control sheriffs who will not sign off your your application. But maybe not, I never seen a Democratic that did not support a tax increase.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

The Separation

A proposal for a renewed America.

americanmind.org

A somewhat long, but very thought provoking read.

Before we leave Separation, there are already blue and red states - so how much more power would need to be devolved to them to make for the desired autonomy in a federal system? Would this not be something they could even do themselves through a partial secession?

 

[Wheels]

 

[Red Leg]

Before we leave Separation, there are already blue and red states - so how much more power would need to be devolved to them to make for the desired autonomy in a federal system? Would this not be something they could even do themselves through a partial secession?

Because they aren’t really blue and red. The majorities, with the exception of places like California and NY tend to be very thin and almost all are in constant transition one way or the other.

For instance, here in “red” Texas 5.8 million voted for Trump and 5.2 million voted for Biden. Hardly an overwhelming mandate to completely throw out our government or in some way disenfranchise half our population.