Politics

Point out one thing I said that was untrue if I’m wrong.

[edited for clarity]

When trump first started with tariff talks it was strictly a financial issue. Then when he realized the issues with the trade agreement in place it was all of a sudden a security issue.
It wasn't "when he realized the issues with the trade agreement..."

Normally, the legislature is responsible for tariffs (Article 1, Section 8: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States", also "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."). However, there is a law (The Trade Expansion Act of 1962) which allows the President to establish tariffs in support of national security. National security is also specifically listed in USMCA as a reason for abridging portions of the agreement. So it would be more correct to say that it became a "security issue" because that is within his purview, as opposed to just declaring it without a national security background.

Please note: the above should not be construed as necessarily agreeing with the decision, it merely points out the facts in the discussion.

That said, if Trump's actions are digging in to Canadian perceptions of their own internal politics, then information operations in Canada are much more effective than they were when I was a student at the Canadian Forces College.
 
@Tubby’s Canteen , I thought you might be interested in this.. I know USMCA is a topic that is a pretty big hot button for you..

It appears MX gets a 1 month reprieve from tariffs that are covered under USMCA..

Maybe something similar is being negotiated with CA.. but I haven't seen it yet..

My guess (admittedly a complete and total guess) is Doug Ford, Trudeau, and others response has been very different than Mexico's response.. and as a result, Trump is very purposefully going to follow through with his threats.. and likely go further with them in fairly short order if Canada doesn't change its tactics soon..

Mexico played the "what did we fail to do??? everything you asked for, we gave you.. we sent cartel bosses to the US to be prosecuted.. we sent 10K marines to the border to help seal it.. etc..etc.. what else is it you want?????" card.. followed by "if we have to, we will respond with additional tariffs of our own" (a fairly low key, veiled threat.. while also posturing as a victim)...

Senior CA officials have responded very differently with tough guy commentary and pretty hollow threats that are honestly pretty meaningless to anyone paying attention... Trudeau keeps pointing toward what HE thinks are successful metrics (Trump clearly disagrees on what the measurement of "success" is) but doesn't really respond by saying what actions have been taken (where the Mexicans are much more action focused.. ie you asked for X.. we gave you X.. you asked for Y.. we gave you Y..)..

For example Fords announcement yesterday that he was going to kill all Ontario govt spending on US provided services was pure comedy if anyone understands that the Ontario govt isn't actually buying "US Based services" as Ford describes... an example would be General Dynamics Land Systems Canada is a company that sells services to Canada... it is owned by GDLS (USA).. but it employs thousands of Canadians, is a Canadian business, etc (and is the 3rd largest provider of services to the Canadian government).. but it is NOT a US based company (the profits simply flow back to the US)...

So is Fords plan to kill thousands of Canadian jobs by shutting off GDLS-C? or does he plan on shutting off GDLS (the US entity)? which does no business with the Canadian government anyway?

The same is true of all of the US owned (but Canada based) firms that supply the Canadian Govt with goods and services that are on Canada's top 20 list of providers, without exception..

What Ford fails to understand (clearly) is that Canada does the same thing with the US..

CAE is a $4.1B Canadian firm... the overwhelming majority of that company's revenue comes from the services and products it sells to the US government (aircraft flight simulators for the USAF for example is one of CAE's biggest contracts)..

So what happens when the US responds to Fords threats in kind and prohibits any Canadian firm from doing business with the US Govt? Who actually feels more pain? and who feels it most quickly? Boeing is CAE's primary competitor on the Aircraft Simulator front.. and could step into the void (and would love to) immediately.. Whereas to my knowledge Canada doesn't have a Canadian replacement for GDLS-C available.. their only option would to be to hire a European competitor at a higher price while simultaneously shutting down a large business that employs a ton of Canadians (thereby harming the Canadian economy)..



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As Ive said in other posts.. Im not advocating Trumps methodology at all... I personally think a more measured approach with a less erratic tempo would be a better way to approach the issue..

Im simply pointing out the facts... Mexico seems to be tempering things fairly well at the moment with their strategy.. while Canada appears to continue losing ground with its strategy..
 
I respectfully suggest that you think critically for yourself and broaden your source content. Ever try to sell a M1A1, Bradley, or leopard II? They are rather difficult to hide in a paper bag. Who is your market and how are you getting it to them? How about a truck load of 155mm artillery rounds. To whom and for what purpose? Sure, some small arms have no doubt vanished along with the odd anti-tank missile. But this sort of thing doesn't amount to pennies and happens in all wars. But, it makes great unrefuted allegations on Breitbart and Revolver.

This is Elon Musk's own Grok assessment - it is an AI research tool that looks at all sources. This its conclusion with respect to graft associated with weapons and munitions. It seems to be a very thorough source on almost any subject where confirmation bias has taken over.

There’s no definitive, conclusive evidence that weapons and munitions provided to Ukraine by Western allies, such as the United States or NATO countries, have been systematically misused or diverted due to corruption within Ukraine itself. However, the question of corruption related to these supplies has been a point of concern, speculation, and investigation, especially given Ukraine’s historical struggles with graft and the massive influx of military aid since Russia’s full-scale invasion in February 2022.

Ukraine has faced several high-profile corruption scandals involving its defense sector, particularly around procurement processes. For instance, in January 2024, Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU) uncovered a scheme where officials and arms supplier managers embezzled nearly $40 million intended for purchasing 100,000 mortar shells. The funds were paid in advance, but no weapons were delivered. This case, however, involved domestic procurement fraud rather than the misuse of weapons already provided by foreign partners. The money was reportedly recovered, and suspects face charges, suggesting Ukraine is actively addressing such issues.

When it comes to Western-supplied weapons—like Javelin missiles, HIMARS systems, or artillery rounds—there’s no credible, verified evidence of widespread diversion or corruption directly tied to these specific assets. U.S. and Pentagon officials have repeatedly stated, as of late 2023 and early 2024, that they’ve seen “no credible evidence” of illicit diversion of advanced conventional weapons from Ukraine. That said, oversight has been a challenge. A January 2024 report from the Pentagon’s Inspector General noted that about $1 billion of U.S.-supplied equipment lacked proper end-use monitoring, raising concerns about potential vulnerabilities rather than confirmed corruption.

Speculation about weapons ending up on the black market has circulated, fueled by Russian propaganda and some Western commentators. Posts on X and other platforms have claimed that up to half of U.S.-supplied weapons are being sold off, with some allegedly reaching Mexican drug cartels. These claims lack substantiation from reliable sources and appear exaggerated or unverified. Ukraine’s government and anti-corruption advocates, like Vitaly Shabunin from the Anti-Corruption Action Centre, assert that Western-supplied weapons are effectively reaching the front lines and that stealing them would be nearly impossible due to strict tracking by donor countries.

On the flip side, Ukraine’s broader corruption issues—ranked 116th out of 180 on Transparency International’s 2022 Corruption Perceptions Index—mean the risk isn’t zero. Smaller-scale incidents, like the disappearance of 400 Kalashnikov rifles and 40,000 rounds from a warehouse in Kyiv in February 2025 (noted in X posts), hint at localized vulnerabilities, though these weren’t confirmed as Western-supplied items. The use of controversial weapons, like cluster munitions, has also sparked debate, but this relates more to policy than corruption.

So, while Ukraine has documented corruption in its own military spending and procurement, the actual weapons and munitions provided by allies seem to have largely avoided proven corrupt diversion as of March 6, 2025. The absence of solid evidence doesn’t eliminate the possibility—war zones are messy, and oversight isn’t perfect—but it suggests that, so far, the systems in place are holding up under scrutiny. Ukraine’s ongoing anti-corruption efforts and pressure from Western donors likely play a role in keeping this in check.

Oh, I'm not naive on this stuff one bit. No, I don't think they are selling fighting vehicles or full on weapon systems, that would be too obvious and they aren't stupid to throw red flags like that. But those things are a fraction of the monies that have been spent/sent in "aid". Last I saw, we had sent $66.5 Billion to the Ukraine, and a lot of that is "support" type items like rations, clothing, generators, all kinds of goods, it's not just weapons. Let's say 3% of that "aid" is being skimmed, turned to hard cash at 30 cents on the dollar, that's roughly $600 Million dollars of pocket lining hard currency, and it would be almost impossible to track with everything going on over there. With the Ukraine's history, I don't see that as being implausible whatsoever.
 
"But they are strangely myopic on the timeline of soft force events that set things in motion."

Soft force events? Bullshit. Putin wanted to invade. Putin invaded. That's like trying to justify why a bully took the lunch money.

The reason this war is happening, plain in simple, is the aggression of Putin/Russia. Soft events. Do you really think the Ukrainian people wanted this?

"It's kinda like a brawl that starts as an argument, then name calling, then pushing but saying the guy that throws the first punch is completely to blame."

Yes. Russia is completely to blame. 100%. Or to paraphrase the language from this meme: Russia is fucking to blame.

View attachment 669727

You seem to exist in an extremely narrow and black and white way of viewing things.
 
I wonder how the automakers are going to work through this. Perhaps they are exempt and I missed it. It’s easy to say, bring those jobs back to the US, but I’m betting it would take at least two years to tool and staff up to accomplish that. In the meantime, will those tariffs apply to all of the components moving back and forth across the border? If so, you may want to buy that new vehicle now!
 
You seem to exist in an extremely narrow and black and white way of viewing things.

Russia invading a sovereign nation, unprovoked, seems like a pretty black and white thing to me, soooo... :unsure: :E Shrug:
 
I think that you will find the soft events you speak of largely predated by the invasion of Crimea.

I would agree. Which was predated just a few days prior, if memory serves, by the color revolution and what some would call "coup" of Yanukovych.
I won't claim evidence but I strongly suspect our USAID or US State dept or CIA or a combination therein, which has a long and glorious history of such goings on, was involved.

So if the soft power was because of Crimea and Crimea because of the overthrow of a pro-russia leadership, then it's safe to say the entire chain of events is connected.
Do you agree?

Thus, tit for tat, encroachment, a coup here and there, and someone finally throws the first punch.
As I said. Some take a very myopic view and spout out what NBC and the NYT tells them.
It's all Russia's fault. The rest are innocent white knights.
 
Im betting longer than 2 years.. hell.. its taking them 2 years just to build a COSTCO in my suburb.. they broke ground 6 months ago and still haven't gotten past the dirt work and pouring a little bit of the foundation...

My guess is the Auto industry is one of the reasons Trump is also a little more focused on coming to an agreement with MX.. while A LOT of foreign vehicles are now built in the US (all Toyota Tundras sold here are built here for example).. there are A LOT of US vehicle brands being built in Mexico in huge numbers (I think most of the Dodge 1500 Rams are now built south of the border)..

Moving that manufacturing to the US sounds great in theory.. but to your point, you're probably looking at a 2-4 year window before the first truck rolls off the line...

What is the US consumer going to do during that time period?

My guess is the Ram brand gets crushed.. and more Toyotas get sold... which isn't really the best solution for the US in my mind (although I am a Tundra owner myself)..
 
I wonder how the automakers are going to work through this. Perhaps they are exempt and I missed it. It’s easy to say, bring those jobs back to the US, but I’m betting it would take at least two years to tool and staff up to accomplish that. In the meantime, will those tariffs apply to all of the components moving back and forth across the border? If so, you may want to buy that new vehicle now!
 

Trump is going to have to make good on some of these threats he makes toward real enemies along with ones aimed at our allies like Canada, or our foes may start to view him as the blusterer and chief. Though I am rather unsure exactly what we would be prepared to do that Israel isn't or hasn't.

I suspect bomb Iran.
 
and for those of you that put even a micron of credibility in the NYT, here's one detailing how the CIA has been working inside Ukraine for quite some time.

Before some of you jump on the prism of splitting this into either being pro-Ukraine war or pro-Putin, I'll say it again. I'm not a fan of Putin. He's got a pretty bad record.
But call it like it is and stop with the white knight narrative about Ukraine leadership.

The spy war: How the CIA secretly helps ukraine fight putin

For those not wanting to navigate around the paywall:
Deccan Herald re-print of NYT
 
For @Tundra Tiger

Do you think our Sec of State is also simply spouting Russian propaganda? Another Putin Puppet?


Im pretty sure @Red Leg , myself, and several others acknowledged it to be a proxy war within days of the first US and EU munitions being put on trains headed east..

the earliest discussions here were centered around the strategic value in being able to set back the Russian economy and Russian military a few decades without having to risk US lives in the process.. that's the very definition of a proxy war..

I don't know that it being a proxy war or not really changes the primary argument(s) of 2025 or not (whether or not it is our humanitarian obligation to continue to support Ukraine? or if there is further strategic advantage to be found in continuing to support Ukraine?)..
 
and the D's continue down the path of theatrics... I swear they will never learn.. its actually become comical...

9 D's actually sided with R's on the censure vote on Rep Green (clearly Green is an assclown.. even members of his own party voted against him, or chose to vote "present", or not show up at all..

And the left responds by standing and singing in the house, disrupting the process, and acting like fools..
I sincerely hope they keep this up... this is exactly the sort of thing that found them losing just 4 months ago.. its clearly not the way to regain the American peoples trust..

I believe the Democrats, and in particular their leadership, have crossed the point of no return. The donkey has become an ass. There is a sensible core amongst them though and it is likely that they will be alienated, or alienate themselves until a critical breakaway mass forms and they will form something new.
 
I would agree. Which was predated just a few days prior, if memory serves, by the color revolution and what some would call "coup" of Yanukovych.
I won't claim evidence but I strongly suspect our USAID or US State dept or CIA or a combination therein, which has a long and glorious history of such goings on, was involved.

So if the soft power was because of Crimea and Crimea because of the overthrow of a pro-russia leadership, then it's safe to say the entire chain of events is connected.
Do you agree?

Thus, tit for tat, encroachment, a coup here and there, and someone finally throws the first punch.
As I said. Some take a very myopic view and spout out what NBC and the NYT tells them.
It's all Russia's fault. The rest are innocent white knights.

And if memory serves, the Ukrainians have been fighting internally for quite some time with the eastern part of the country pro-Russia and the central and western parts pro-West/NATO. Russia is not going to have any tolerance of Ukraine being part of NATO and after the last power shift in Ukraine that was what was being pushed for, NATO membership. Not excusing Russia one bit in all of this, they are definitely the aggressor, but the last group that got a hold of power in Ukraine was definitely poking the bear, and the bear threw a punch because the US an EU had feckless leadership, and the bear knew it. The Ukrainian leadership made a bad choice on that front. People are being myopic a bit, IMHO, as they don't look at who they are dealing with in Putin, he's an old Soviet Union KGB guy and that's the prism he views the world from. Ukraine in NATO is a 100% red line in the sand for him. Putin miscalculated though thinking the Ukraine was going to be a pushover, cost him 800,000 men. It's also put him in a bind at home on a number of fronts. I personally think Putin wants out of this mess but it seems like the Ukrainians keep asking for more "aid" to continue the fight. Don't think they were anticipating the response they got from the US this last go around. Hopefully this thing comes to an end soon.
 
This story is probably worth following as it unfolds. A few month old NGO gets $7B from the EPA. Reading about this story in other places, following this money trail will take us to some big names.

 
I do not get your point. Of course it is. We are supporting one side, and Russia is fighting on the other. So the best conclusion of that war would be a negotiated settlement on Russia's terms? We and our proxy simply surrender?

Nope, not at all.....and I don't think that's what Trump has in mind either.....looks to me like he's positioning us and the Ukraine for that minerals deal and once he has that he's going to tell Russia that we have interests in Ukraine and here is the line we are willing to set, live with it or continue the fight you want out of....but that's just a guess.
 
Im pretty sure @Red Leg , myself, and several others acknowledged it to be a proxy war within days of the first US and EU munitions being put on trains headed east..

the earliest discussions here were centered around the strategic value in being able to set back the Russian economy and Russian military a few decades without having to risk US lives in the process.. that's the very definition of a proxy war..

I don't know that it being a proxy war or not really changes the primary argument(s) of 2025 or not (whether or not it is our humanitarian obligation to continue to support Ukraine? or if there is further strategic advantage to be found in continuing to support Ukraine?)..

You typically provide a very fair assessment. This one is no different but I think we're not on the same point.

The point I'm making is not whether it's a proxy war. It's that the narrative of "it's all Putin's fault" and the "unprovoked" bits are not accurate.

And if we're all in agreement that we've (The USA) been in a proxy war, then the unprovoked and unilateral aggression by Putin argument clearly falls down.
 

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