Politics

To those advocating that Ukraine negotiate a settlement, how much of the USA would you be willing to give up for a negotiated peace if China invaded us?

Obama set the table for this fiasco when he didn’t honor our commitment to protect Ukraine sovereignty in 2014. Biden secured the invasion with his minor incursion comments. We had a lot to do with creating this mess, it seems that we have both responsibility and self interest in resolving it to Ukraine’s favor.
 
We need to do to the Democrats, what was done to the Redcoats over 200 years ago.
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You find a lack of balance in my statements?

Allow me to offer my world view with respect to American national interests. I am not asking for your approval. I am simply providing you what I believe to be true after a lifetime of being involved in more than just the periphery of these issues.

We are citizens of a world-wide empire. Unlike Rome, it is based more upon the reach of our trade and influence rather than the boots of our soldiers. Because of size alone, there are no exact historical precedents, but the Byzantine Empire between 500-1000AD or perhaps Venice of the late Middle Ages offer some clues. That commercial empire, and hence the prosperity of our people, depends upon the unhindered access to international markets. Those markets have been made more secure over the last two centuries by agreements, treaties, alliances, and the periodic use of military power.

Generally, the leadership of our country has recognized the fundamental nature of our imperial economy for most of the existence of our nation. After all, the Monroe Doctrine was formed in 1823. While defensive in nature by opposing European colonialism in the Western Hemisphere, it in effect carved out two continents of areas of critical American national interests - at the beginning of the 19th century less than forty years after ratification of our constitution. Our merchant shipping, banking, and vast natural resources coupled with periodic tension with Britain and France, and wars with Mexico and more importantly Spain before the end of that century solidified that international economic foundation.

Since then we have had periodic bouts of isolationism. The current "America First" movement is merely the latest example of imitating an ostrich in a sandbox. During the two previous episodes we were rudely yanked back to reality at great cost in the lives of our people and our treasury. The conclusion of those wars left the empire more powerful and wielding ever more influence. It is both a role and a stage from which we can not exit without doing great harm to the well being of our citizens, and now, a vast number of people in the world who have come to share our values. and economic prosperity.

So how do we maintain this worldwide empire to the benefit of this large slice of physical territory and peoples?

Foremost, we have a worldwide web of mutually beneficial international trade. Because that international exchange of goods it is not exploitive like traditional empires, it has tended to create a web of mutually supportive allies representing all sorts of regimes ranging from Arab potentates, sophisticated Europeans, and Chinese businessmen. Tellingly, they include former enemies who are now prosperous allies.

We have a military with broad international reach capable of physically protecting those trade routes and relationships. Because of our wealth, that military costs only 3% of the nation's GDP (somewhat paltry for such a diabolical, vast, and powerful military industrial complex).

During World War II we finally realized the importance of a formal intelligence gathering capability. The wartime OSS, largely emulating Great Britain's SIS, became the CIA. It remains primarily just that - an intelligence gathering organization. It does that through technical means and through a worldwide network of paid informants called agents who are managed by CIA operatives called case officers. The agency does have the capability for direct action and influence operations, but that is minor compared to is primary mission.

The notion that a president can consistently and effectively influence the course of international events through the agency is largely the creation of novelists and Hollywood. That doesn't mean these operations haven't been attempted periodically, the Bay of Pigs and the fall of the Allende government, are two of the mot notable. The solidification of Castro's rule and the rise of Pinochet serve to illustrate the folly of most such initiatives.

I frankly find the notion that there is or was some way to bribe the Russians into good behavior as laughable.

Putin will claim to have "won" regardless of the outcome of this war. One of the advantages of dictatorships. But militarily, strategically, and politically he has already pretty much lost this war. He has destroyed two and a half decades committed to building a modern Russian military. His modernized mechanized forces are twisted heaps of burnt metal on the Ukrainian Steppe. His troops are resorting to using T54/55 and T62 tanks that their grandfathers used along the Fulda Gap. His air force can't even fly over Ukrainian territory. The Baltic has gone from being a contested Russian outlet to the sea to a NATO lake due to the addition of Finland and pending addition of Sweden. Germany has deployed a full mechanized brigade to the Baltics and Finland is already hosting US aircraft and technical intelligence gathering assets. Kaliningrad has become an enclave in the middle of NATO. He was worried about Ukraine joining NATO, but now, because of Finland he has added over 1300 km of shared NATO border with NATO troops now within marching distance of St. Petersburg. What a strategic genius. And not a single American has fired a round in anger.

This war will indeed end in negotiations. Those will begin in earnest when one side believes the effort is no longer worth the cost in treasure, lives, and strategic position. If NATO stays the course, I remain confident that will be Russia that blinks first. Certainly Ukraine, fighting for its right to exist, has displayed a tenacity that Russian troops will never have.

Finally, for all the reasons I listed above, I find this notion of the existence of some malevolent organized military industrial complex nonsensical. If you want to see organized power affecting our political and budgetary decisions, you need go no farther than the Social Security and Medicare Bureaucracies. Those agencies control nearly 20% of our GDP.

Do presidents make the wrong choices with respect to the use of military force? Absolutely. But that is hardly the fault of the soldiers and materiel manufacturers tasked with trying to carry out those orders. For instance, no governmental entity was more resistant to the invasion of Iraq than was the US Army. Shinseki became a pariah among the Rumsfeld crowd far voicing his doubts in senate testimony (I was sitting directly behind him).

And after competing against Boeing, GD, and Lockheed Martin as a fairly senior appointed officer in Northrop Grumman for more than a decade, I can't tell you how ridiculous it sounds that we would all go into some dark room and plot a war.

I asked a question, your response was one of feeling insulted. Not my tone or intent, @Red Leg . The military-industrial complex isn’t the military. It’s the notion of agency capture by interests non-aligned to the American people. If you find it bizarre I would posit the question, I’d point out Eisenhower’s fairwell address warning to us and I’d point to the absolutely clear-as-can-be idea of full regulatory capture of the FDA by the pharmaceutical industry. If we see private sector hegemony in one area of our government, Isn’t it okay to ask the questions about other areas?

I have no problem with the military and I certainly am a Reagan conservative that would prefer it be larger and more capable as a major deterrent. But I also am concerned we are getting sucked into something here and now that may deplete our capabilities (some of our weapons will take a decade ore more to resupply?) and I’m not sure how we get to a clear victory in the end. The whole exercise hinges on the idea that we will get a better victory than surrender of Crimea, Donbas, and Luhansk, which is exactly what the offer was on week 1 of this war.

So why are we risking so much in this war?

A.) Because people smarter than me see a way to decimate Russia, reclaim all of Ukraine, AND prevent a limited nuclear exchange.

OR

B.) Because it was a profitable time to get rid of old weapons and munitions while destabilizing foreign governments. (Disclaimer: I’m invested in the defense stocks based on this hypothesis)

OR

C.) We’re making this up as we go along.

OR

D.) Our nation’s leadership had so many personal side-deals in Ukraine that hinged on a puppet government that we are now protecting their interests rather than the nation’s.

OR

E.) Some other reason not yet evident.


I don’t question your service to our nation or your capability as a military leader. As a citizen, I question the hell out of the private enterprise interests that appear corrupt that may have led to this, I question the path to victory at what cost, and I question our readiness and capability to deal with China and others if we deplete our capability for war by protracted entanglement in Eastern Europe.
 
To those advocating that Ukraine negotiate a settlement, how much of the USA would you be willing to give up for a negotiated peace if China invaded us?

Californina and New York to start....
 
End game? What does “victory” in the Ukraine look like? What is the optimal outcome? What is the probable outcome given the current trajectory? Lastly, what does this outcome cost us?
 
You find a lack of balance in my statements?

Allow me to offer my world view with respect to American national interests. I am not asking for your approval. I am simply providing you what I believe to be true after a lifetime of being involved in more than just the periphery of these issues.

We are citizens of a world-wide empire. Unlike Rome, it is based more upon the reach of our trade and influence rather than the boots of our soldiers. Because of size alone, there are no exact historical precedents, but the Byzantine Empire between 500-1000AD or perhaps Venice of the late Middle Ages offer some clues. That commercial empire, and hence the prosperity of our people, depends upon the unhindered access to international markets. Those markets have been made more secure over the last two centuries by agreements, treaties, alliances, and the periodic use of military power.

Generally, the leadership of our country has recognized the fundamental nature of our imperial economy for most of the existence of our nation. After all, the Monroe Doctrine was formed in 1823. While defensive in nature by opposing European colonialism in the Western Hemisphere, it in effect carved out two continents of areas of critical American national interests - at the beginning of the 19th century less than forty years after ratification of our constitution. Our merchant shipping, banking, and vast natural resources coupled with periodic tension with Britain and France, and wars with Mexico and more importantly Spain before the end of that century solidified that international economic foundation.

Since then we have had periodic bouts of isolationism. The current "America First" movement is merely the latest example of imitating an ostrich in a sandbox. During the two previous episodes we were rudely yanked back to reality at great cost in the lives of our people and our treasury. The conclusion of those wars left the empire more powerful and wielding ever more influence. It is both a role and a stage from which we can not exit without doing great harm to the well being of our citizens, and now, a vast number of people in the world who have come to share our values. and economic prosperity.

So how do we maintain this worldwide empire to the benefit of this large slice of physical territory and peoples?

Foremost, we have a worldwide web of mutually beneficial international trade. Because that international exchange of goods it is not exploitive like traditional empires, it has tended to create a web of mutually supportive allies representing all sorts of regimes ranging from Arab potentates, sophisticated Europeans, and Chinese businessmen. Tellingly, they include former enemies who are now prosperous allies.

We have a military with broad international reach capable of physically protecting those trade routes and relationships. Because of our wealth, that military costs only 3% of the nation's GDP (somewhat paltry for such a diabolical, vast, and powerful military industrial complex).

During World War II we finally realized the importance of a formal intelligence gathering capability. The wartime OSS, largely emulating Great Britain's SIS, became the CIA. It remains primarily just that - an intelligence gathering organization. It does that through technical means and through a worldwide network of paid informants called agents who are managed by CIA operatives called case officers. The agency does have the capability for direct action and influence operations, but that is minor compared to is primary mission.

The notion that a president can consistently and effectively influence the course of international events through the agency is largely the creation of novelists and Hollywood. That doesn't mean these operations haven't been attempted periodically, the Bay of Pigs and the fall of the Allende government, are two of the mot notable. The solidification of Castro's rule and the rise of Pinochet serve to illustrate the folly of most such initiatives.

I frankly find the notion that there is or was some way to bribe the Russians into good behavior as laughable.

Putin will claim to have "won" regardless of the outcome of this war. One of the advantages of dictatorships. But militarily, strategically, and politically he has already pretty much lost this war. He has destroyed two and a half decades committed to building a modern Russian military. His modernized mechanized forces are twisted heaps of burnt metal on the Ukrainian Steppe. His troops are resorting to using T54/55 and T62 tanks that their grandfathers used along the Fulda Gap. His air force can't even fly over Ukrainian territory. The Baltic has gone from being a contested Russian outlet to the sea to a NATO lake due to the addition of Finland and pending addition of Sweden. Germany has deployed a full mechanized brigade to the Baltics and Finland is already hosting US aircraft and technical intelligence gathering assets. Kaliningrad has become an enclave in the middle of NATO. He was worried about Ukraine joining NATO, but now, because of Finland he has added over 1300 km of shared NATO border with NATO troops now within marching distance of St. Petersburg. What a strategic genius. And not a single American has fired a round in anger.

This war will indeed end in negotiations. Those will begin in earnest when one side believes the effort is no longer worth the cost in treasure, lives, and strategic position. If NATO stays the course, I remain confident that will be Russia that blinks first. Certainly Ukraine, fighting for its right to exist, has displayed a tenacity that Russian troops will never have.

Finally, for all the reasons I listed above, I find this notion of the existence of some malevolent organized military industrial complex nonsensical. If you want to see organized power affecting our political and budgetary decisions, you need go no farther than the Social Security and Medicare Bureaucracies. Those agencies control nearly 20% of our GDP.

Do presidents make the wrong choices with respect to the use of military force? Absolutely. But that is hardly the fault of the soldiers and materiel manufacturers tasked with trying to carry out those orders. For instance, no governmental entity was more resistant to the invasion of Iraq than was the US Army. Shinseki became a pariah among the Rumsfeld crowd far voicing his doubts in senate testimony (I was sitting directly behind him).

And after competing against Boeing, GD, and Lockheed Martin as a fairly senior appointed officer in Northrop Grumman for more than a decade, I can't tell you how ridiculous it sounds that we would all go into some dark room and plot a war.

Great post, very informative. I found myself morphing into a not-so-good Jack Nicholson (Col Nathan Jessup) impersonation while reading the first couple of lines. :cool:
 
I asked a question, your response was one of feeling insulted. Not my tone or intent, @Red Leg . The military-industrial complex isn’t the military. It’s the notion of agency capture by interests non-aligned to the American people. If you find it bizarre I would posit the question, I’d point out Eisenhower’s fairwell address warning to us and I’d point to the absolutely clear-as-can-be idea of full regulatory capture of the FDA by the pharmaceutical industry. If we see private sector hegemony in one area of our government, Isn’t it okay to ask the questions about other areas?

I have no problem with the military and I certainly am a Reagan conservative that would prefer it be larger and more capable as a major deterrent. But I also am concerned we are getting sucked into something here and now that may deplete our capabilities (some of our weapons will take a decade ore more to resupply?) and I’m not sure how we get to a clear victory in the end. The whole exercise hinges on the idea that we will get a better victory than surrender of Crimea, Donbas, and Luhansk, which is exactly what the offer was on week 1 of this war.

So why are we risking so much in this war?

A.) Because people smarter than me see a way to decimate Russia, reclaim all of Ukraine, AND prevent a limited nuclear exchange.

OR

B.) Because it was a profitable time to get rid of old weapons and munitions while destabilizing foreign governments. (Disclaimer: I’m invested in the defense stocks based on this hypothesis)

OR

C.) We’re making this up as we go along.

OR

D.) Our nation’s leadership had so many personal side-deals in Ukraine that hinged on a puppet government that we are now protecting their interests rather than the nation’s.

OR

E.) Some other reason not yet evident.


I don’t question your service to our nation or your capability as a military leader. As a citizen, I question the hell out of the private enterprise interests that appear corrupt that may have led to this, I question the path to victory at what cost, and I question our readiness and capability to deal with China and others if we deplete our capability for war by protracted entanglement in Eastern Europe.
Let me be somewhat briefer this time. I am not offended. I simply think your notions of private corrupt enterprise leading to a war in Ukraine are nonsensical. If by that assertion, you mean the war is the result of the machinations of a conspiracy formed by American military and corporate interests. It is the stuff of tin foil hats.

The portion of Eisenhower's speech that is always quoted is “In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex” People draw far different conclusions from that quote than Eisenhower intended from the complete speech.

I would urge you to read or listen to the whole thing. What I believe he was warning about was that United States was entering into a period of persistent conflict - a period that world had not really seen since the 100 years war. He further stated that America must be willing to exert a primary leadership role in that new era. Another quote in that speech that doesn't get much attention is “Throughout America's adventure in free government, our basic purposes have been to keep the peace; to foster progress in human achievement, and to enhance liberty, dignity and integrity among people and among nations,” That is quite an imperial mission statement - even call to arms by perhaps the most informed and successful political/military leader since Washington.

He more than anyone understood the fallacy of disarmament and isolationism; a cancer through which he served in late twenties and thirties. Another quote captures that experience, “an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

I see no evidence that the machinery of defense has run amok. As Eisenhower notes it is absolutely necessary in a dangerous world. What I have seen in my lifetime are administrations making terrible choices that have been condoned by large majorities of the American people - at least for a while. Vietnam, Iraq, and the attempt at nation building in Afghanistan are the best examples. Those decisions were made by leaders elected by the American people.

As @WAB correctly notes, I believe Obama failed miserably in his responsibilities to to foster progress in human achievement, and to enhance liberty, dignity and integrity among people and among nations by abandoning our commitments to Ukraine in 2014. I simply wish the current administration would exercise more resolve in addressing that responsibility today.
 
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I grew up as a Reagan kid, living minutes away from the second biggest Strategic Air Command Air Force Base in the USA, as well as the Shrine of Democracy - Mount Rushmore. We had monthly bombing drills (think tornado or fire drills) at school. Outside of Ellsworth AFB and throughout the western part of South Dakota, there are missile silos dotting the landscape in areas where we hunted for pronghorn, deer and birds. It was not uncommon to be suddenly surprised by low-flying B-52s and later, B-1 bombers practicing their ground-hugging radar flying low and scaring the hell out of you for a moment before you figured out what just happened when they came screaming by at very low altitude. I had a teacher that as a boy, had to flee Cuba because his family was the presidential family at the time. All these things brought on my deep love for this country and our military.

I supported Bush’s Iraq war to take down Saddam Hussein. I have since changed my mind and outlook about trying to turn every country into a democracy. I have traveled to several countries and five continents. I have three former Special Forces operators working for me now. Between what I have seen myself and what my SF friends have told me, I am done with nation building and thoughts of the USA trying to forcefully spread democracy. In retrospect, we would have been better off leaving Saddam in power. We now have Iran in Iraq, ISIS and Al-Qaeda. As for Afghanistan, we should have just left after decimating the training camps. The population of Afghanistan has a 6% literacy rate. We aren’t going to be able to educate the general populace about democracy- they can’t even read or write!

All the above said, I have not become an Isolationist. Although I won’t support anymore nation building, I will support friendly countries that are invaded by the likes of Russia or China. Nation building and self-defense are two different things. I also support maintaining the open oceans and skies for trade in goods and defense of our allies.

If we can help Ukraine defend itself and simultaneously reduce Russia’s military capabilities in the process without spilling American blood, I am all for it.

Happy 4th of July!
 
Remember, the first shots were fired to oppose the British attempt at gun control. Same for the Texas revolution.
 
The day the US evacuated Trashcanistan they blamed the timeline on Trump stating they had no other choice in the matter.
 
the "wars" noted as "administrations making terrible choices" were NOT terrible choices. The terrible choices were made by the various administrations to either lie to the public or to seek an unworkable outcome. These choices are completely predictable in that they are consistent with the several domestic policies that the administrations show a great propensity for short-sightedness.
 
The day the US evacuated Trashcanistan they blamed the timeline on Trump stating they had no other choice in the matter.
But specifically the cocaine thing. I bet they try.
 
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Grz63 wrote on x84958's profile.
Good Morning x84958
I have read your post about Jamy Traut and your hunt in Caprivi. I am planning such a hunt for 2026, Oct with Jamy.
Just a question , because I will combine Caprivi and Panorama for PG, is the daily rate the same the week long, I mean the one for Caprivi or when in Panorama it will be a PG rate ?
thank you and congrats for your story.
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dlmac wrote on Buckums's profile.
ok, will do.
 
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